IMPORTANT

Israel: Why is it that in a world that emphasises freedom, democracy and basic human rights countries such as Israel are allowed to get away with OPEN AND DELIBERATE DISREGARD TO UNITED NATIONS RESOULTIONS ?! I have to correct myself actually…the only other country I can think of who stood up to the UN was Iraq…it is still being bombed today. Israel on the other hand is still receiveing well over 5 Billion dollars in aid from the USA regardless of its ignoration of the UN resoultions !!

*All information stated above is factual and can be openly verified…none of it is opiononated.

because theres still a sense of post-WW2 guilt?

^ question mark implies that i don’t know, and am speculating

Possibly Clarice but that simply cannot be used to justify all that is happening in Israel.

Israel: the only country to disobey UN regulations??? Israel is actually the only country in the Middle East that is considered to be a LIBERAL DEMOCRACY. No single Arab state in the Middle East has that status. On top of that just about every single country in the world disobeys UN regulations. I doubt you have to be a legal genius to argue that US behaviour in the current war or the Gulf War went against international law. Unfortunately whilst your point that Israel has disobeyed international law, for example the illegal ‘occupation’ of the Golan Heights, is true, your context and point are both opinion and fallacious.

Whilst I am against the way that Israel treats its Palestinian population as second-class citizens, the last fe months have shown us that the liberal democratic world abhors terrorism. If you want to criticise Israel, fine but criticise the US and your own prime minister for is there really any difference between their behaviour? There are more important matters here than international law which can never apply to every situation anyway !!

i’m not talking about the whole situation in Israle, but the people who go and throw stones at the Isralie soldiers, then get shot and then claim they were innocent to the international community is wrong. there is a simple fact here:-

don’t throw stones at people with big guns, they will shoot you.

just one thing, not making any judgements though, becuase the situation the Palestinians are in would drive most people to that but the stone throwers are hardly innocent.

In response to Alex’s post: First, can I say how much I agree with your opinion on the impracticability of general international law. Also, I think you are right to steer the debate from this on to the more pressing issues which MusRep (ain’t he cute?!) alludes to but underestimates: in particular, human rights ought to be central to our considerations.

However, would you clarify for me, Mr Bloch, exactly why Israel’s status as a “liberal democracy” ought to compel anyone to ignore the atrocities (on both sides) occurring there from day to day, and instead look at the way the US flouts UN regulations? This is what you say. On the one hand you criticise UN regulation, yet in what seems to be a circular argument, you use each country’s level of adherence to them as a criterion of relative judgement.

Furthermore, the value of a liberal democracy is debatable. Wasn’t it a liberal democracy that brought good old Adolf “Mein Kampf” Hitler into power, resulting in that period of history known as the Holocaust? Liberal democracy is seen as the universally optimal political system purely because it is moderately successful in today’s Western world: isn’t it “fallacious” to extrapolate from this that such a system is optimal in the Middle East? You are quick to point out the fallacy in MusRep’s argument, so I hope you acknowledge your own. I would argue that the religious/cultural attitudes prevalent out there are incompatible with liberal democracy, and hence it should cease to be used as a crude cultural yardstick. It is of little consequence what political system is used (who are we to say that a benevolent dictatorship isn’t the way forward? Though you could argue that a benevolent dictatorship is impossible…) to achieve peace. What is important is that the powers that be, do what they can to put an end to HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES (whether carried out by Israelis or Palestinians - both are guilty of them), and perhaps the way to achieve this would be to combat the attitudes highlighted so eloquently by Tamblius in the post above. I think it is right of the developed world to intervene when basic rights are contravened abroad, but dropping bombs on Arabs just doesn’t work. Anyone have any bright ideas??

What do you say Al? Do you really think liberal democracy is the way forward in the Middle East?

i don’t really know much about this, so excuse my flagrant naivety. i’m really just passing on hearsay … (figure of speech … i’m not shuffling pop band members around).

as far as i can tell, there’s a whole lot of crap going on in the middle east (jesus christ… this girl’s observant) but for some reason, israel is being supported by the usa despite being as sword-wieldingly batty as the rest of them. (sorry). it’s almost like the USA just picked a country at random to support (rather like me with the world cup when england get eliminated). the fact that the usa are doing this entirely undermines any work/military action they carry out in the middle east, and seeing as they make such a big deal out of themselves representing the whole democratic world, we all look bad because of it. damn americans. (um… i’ll get me coat).

I’ll forgive the flagrant naivety but only this once

Here are the facts as you can find them documented in a history book.

Back in ancient times, what we now call Israel was inhabited by the Israelites. They were kicked out by the Babylonians who themselves were kicked out by the Macedonians, Greeks, Romans etc. For a good thousand years, the people living there were what we know as the Palestinians. By the present day it was under the British Mandate. After WWII the British left Palestine and asked the UN to divide it.

The UN recognised the suffering of Jews in the war, who now had no country of their own and decided to give half of Palestine to the Jews/Israelis and half to the Palestinians.
The Palestinians would not agree and refused to move out. In 1948, Israel declared it’s Independence from Palestine and the next day, EVERY SINGLE SURROUNDING ARAB COUNTRY delcared war on Israel. Just think about that for a moment.

The Israeli army, not only succeeded in defending their land, but also took some of the land that the Palestinians had originally been given. Remember this was a war situation just like any other. So, Israel whoops ass and soon the Palestinians cry out “BUT BUT…THEY TOOK OUR LAND CRY”.

Here starts the whole argument of who owns the land. The Palestinians were greedy and did not take the offer given to them. Then they declared war on Israel and LOST and then complained about it afterwards. Have you ever heard of a country complaining about losing a war as if its unfair or something?

This continues until the present day when recently Prime Minister Barak of Israel once again offers the Palestinians large amounts of land including bits of Jerusalem. This much land had NEVER been offered before and Barak was going out on a limb. Yasser Arafat REFUSES to accept this offer! This leads to Ariel Sharon coming to power and the mess that we have today.

So I ask you, if you were America and you chose Israel, do you think that would just be a blind choice made on a complete whim? Or maybe it was the sensible choice given the evidence which any sane person could come to.

ok ok … israel’s making a bit of an effort, good chaps. but they’re still not perfect- they still kill palestinian kids, etc, and much as i hate children i think it’s a fair sign that things aren’t right when everyone’s killing them.

the main problem is that the dear old USA is so big for it’s boots that it assumes the middle east dislikes it because of “democracy” and because of how rich they are. but part of the reason for bad vibes towards the US is that they barge in, get involved (with israel, etc) and then sort of run away again. so i reckon they shouldn’t support ANYone. i know they need it for oil and things, so they have to keep up appearances, but for crying out loud. they should just leave it well alone.

*thoroughly recognises that she is blithering on

Ben: I’m gonna have to disagree with just about every point u’ve made !! I will disagree some time soon hopefully right now I’m a wee bit busy (having just returned from Saudi !) but just think as a bit of a taster to my reply…u proudly stated that Israel defended itself in War a day after it was created…ONE day after it was created !!..thats spectacular for any individual country to do for itself but tragically the Israeli’s did not do it for themselves…u forget the $5 Billion dollars of aid Israel gets in economic aid and $2 Billion in military aid !! Thats the amount spent openly nobody can possibly tell how much the USA truly sponsors Israel. FACT: IF THE US WAS TO WITHDRAW SUPPORT FROM ISRAEL TODAY AND ISRAEL WAS TO SURVIVE INDEPENDENTLY IT WOULD COLLAPSE WITHIN THE NEXT THREE YEARS…fact.

what’s your point? you haven’t disagreed with anything Ben’s said and your point, if you have one, is completely irrelevant.

I don’t intend to be rude - treat this as an invitation to disgree with Ben or to make some points and ignore US involvement because it doesn’t affect the side of the issue we’ve been talking about.

for the first time in ‘ilovephilosophy.com’ history i am going to completely agree with ben! sorry faz… but the politics behind the fighting is clearly on the side of israel…
however, i do not believe their methods are right and correct but also i don’t see that they have much choice…
i also feel that Yasser Arafat is doing a very good job of hiding the truth, even from you faisal! you talk of secret aid from the usa on top of their public aid… but what support is yasser receiving and what underground tactics his he hiding… people on the outside world just cant make fully educated decisions when so much remains hidden!

As alex has already pointed out Faz, you have not disagreed with anything I’ve said. I don’t deny that America has given Israela lot of help but that doesn’t mean my post is not true. I did not mention the war of Independence to “big up” Israel and it’s army. I mentioned it to highlight that the surrounding Arab countries all declared war on Israel. They made the first move of war and then when they were beaten they moaned about it saying it was unfair.

I’m sure you WILL reply with an argument very soon but at the moment you haven’t said anything that has disagreed with my post.

just a test of the local smilie system.

This is only a test…

:smiley: :slight_smile: :frowning: :astonished: :confused: :sunglasses: :laughing: :angry: :imp: :cry: :blush: :stuck_out_tongue: :unamused: :wink: :evilfun:

had this been a real emergency, well… you would have known it.

*actually, I didn’t want to start another thread. Mod’s you can delete this if you want…

we need, nay, demand more smileys!

I’ll take your word for that being true, But:

  1. Who cares about the the UN anyways?

  2. Correct me if I’m incorrect, but aren’t the Palistinian-people in direct oppposition towards the Isrealis? Wouldn’t you have a naturally tendency to support the Palistinians being a Muslim, yourself (this is not meant to hostile–I also support some non-violent claims of the Muslim/Palistinians, myself)

I’m for the Muslims as much as I’m for tyhe Isrealis, but it would sure be nice to see BOTH sides stop the violence.:wink:

The violence actualy even pre-dates the war of independance. Zionest Jews were attacked by local mobs in palestine way before the creation of Israel. And mind you these were people who migrated to palestine, bought land and established communities there. For cultivating land they were attacked, why?

Heeheehee! :smiley: :wink: :wink: