in the beginning...

So there are these membranes sliding around in the eleventh dimension. Two of them collide - BANG. Our whole universe is the result.

This is a theory about the start, the big bang etc. recently presented on that BBC2 program.

What really interested me was the idea that actually there was no moment when time began and everything started. Instead the world / the “multiverse” extends in time to infinity in both directions. There was no beginning and there is no end. And there are infinite other universes being created all the time.

I wonder what implications this has for those of us who believe in God as creator. Also for those of us who think that our world is “the best of all possible worlds”.

i’m not really concerned about the universe was formed, well not just yet. i think it is just more important that we move off this plaent and start to colonize other planets, but not exploit them, although this will probably never happen as there is a total lack of investment in space programs and we are currently doing very well at ruining this planet.

I think its more important to think about saving our own planet than trying to colonise others. I think its amazing how rich life on this planet is - no other planets within reacheable distance is a hundredth as interesting as our own, we've just got to protect and stop meddling with nature. Why do you want to move off this planet macca?

i want us to move off this planet as the longer we stay here the quicker we ruin it, very soon (eg. the next 4 - 5 years is a figure i have often read (sorry for no links, can’t remember them) as the time span in which he have to save the planet or it will be too late to save). if we set about moving off this planet then indoing so we will question why we are moving, and that should bring about the question of conservation. and conservation is our future, but only if we break the power of coporations now and stop them polluting.

we cannot move to other planets. we have not evolved to do so. we can explore them maybe, but there is no way that we can have moved to other planets in the next five years or so.

Macs, its very well sitting there saying “we need to invest more in space programmes to colonize other planets” if have thought through the problem, but you clearly haven’t. You need to look at the other side.

Think about the conditions on these planets that you want us to colonize. Could we live there? No. Anybody there would be wholey reliant on support from earth. Always. And to support more than a couple of people is not even worth considering. But, let us think about the handful of ppl there, living in their 6 sq ft bubble, eating reconstituted food, with nothing to entertain themselves. Would you do it?

Hey, I’ve a bright idea. Let’s go and colonize a planet somewhere else, this time one with similar conditions to earth. One in another solar system, or galaxy perhaps. Hey, lets go live somewhere which takes our lifetime to get to, and even then it’ll be some place were we won’t be able to sustain ourselves without support from earth. Which will also take decades to get to us. Wikked.

And to support this space programme, I vote that we increase taxes, scrap the NHS and government investment in transport, and get rid of our armed forces.

i like the way rich thinks. i agree completely

why should we have to take away all of the governments other services to start a space programm. for an effective space programm alot of money is needed, but to get the required funds a large country is needed, eg a european superstate or a non-isolationist america. either of those 2 options has enough money to effectivly fund a spaceprogram of magnitude.

the only reason you think defence (which might aswell be scrapped because the uk’s current defence system couldn’t stand upto a sustained assualt), NHS, etc has to be scrapped is because your bourgeois ethics dictate that material short term gains and profits come before ultimate survival and the effectivly saving the world. you have to learn that convservation is far more important than your bank balance and fear of taxes.

a large space ship or colony on a foreign planet could be self sustaining. with the use of specifically bred or altered plants it would be possible to supply oxygen. but as you failed to identify propulsion is the main cause of concern for space travel. i can’t offer an answer for this but i don’t doubt a solution could be made. so what if humans have to spend lifetimes in space, surely our ultimate survival is more important than sitting pretty for a few more generations then dying out?

[This message has been edited by macca (edited 23 February 2002).]

I’m not sure where you get the idea that it is obvious that we should sacrifice ourselves for the good of the human race rather than looking out for ourselves. If you truly believe that then I ask you to hand me over all your wordly posessions including the food that keeps you alive because you would be bettering the world community. Selfish you, hoarding all the survival food!

I’m afraid i disagree with you on the fundamental point that we have to be selfish precisely because it is more important (to ourselves) than keeping the human race going. I want to use a car to better my life, if this destroys the ozone layer for future generations I trust them to use their technology to fix it, just as we have fixed the mistakes of previous generations.

Richard’s point about colonating other planets it very valid. The whole reason there is no life on other planets is because it cannot be sustained without artificial intervention. Currently it is not practical for us to move to the moon because the cost of living and support would be phenomenal not to mention the logistics of it all. We do need to look at our own planet but not to be so self-sacrifical that we end up living our lives in misery just so future generations have clean air.

What happens when we run out of space and resources here? do we just say “Oh, fuck it” and die? We need, and make no bones about it, NEED to get off Earth because we cannot survive forever in a closed system, since no closed system is ever self-sustaining.

Stop complaining- this planet is great.
Sure we have industry and a major consequence is pollution, but it’s clearly a worthwhile sacrifice.
Frankly, and you’ll probably shout at me for being too American about this, but it’s purely a personal viewpoint, conservation really doesnt matter- who cares about some pointless seabird or otters?- how much do they enrich our lives compared with medicines or plastic?
On the other hand bbq otter…!

quite an interesting point of view ben, but me eating more than the utter bare minimal doesn’t endanger the human race. setting off nuclear weapons, pooring tons of oil into the sea, ripping a whole the size of europe in the ozone layer do endanger the human race.

flamin red, you may think it’s ammusing to wipe out species but whats going to happen when you leave your city and find there are no trees, no wild animals, no birds, nothing, nothing but billions of acres of crops. i live in the coutnryside and i know what wildlife truely is, it’s not cows on a farm or horses in a padock, it’s swallows arriving in may and leaving in september, it’s deer running through your garden, it’s geese in the sky. imagine just syaing fuck it lets have the money, sure you live in luxury but there is nothing in your world, just you and your petty life in this tiny capsual of a city which you can’t run away from, except to other cities, as outside it everything is dead, just barren and desolate. how wonderful is that going to be?

ben arguing over the finer points of selfishness really doesn’t matter when everything you can possibly dream of, love, and want to survive is at stake. you may think your view of surviving on your own will get you thru with a nice life but putting your own gain before eveything else will only drag this world furthur into capitalism and all it entails.

I’m going to return to the original point of this post. How did we get here is a question we ask ourseleves all the time and I have no idea why because we cannot reach an answer that is able to be proven.

Science is only able to create a general model which applies to our Universe. Nothing can be proven within it and nothing can be purely objective. We continually use laws of induction which are only based on very high probabilities. I assume that the sun will rise tomorrow because it has risen on every day of recorded history. One day though the sun will not rise because it will have died like all stars. No one can prove that the sun will rise tomorrow - we can only assume so with a great degree of sureness. Science can say that something happens because of a release of sodium ions or whatever, but why do sodium ions have this effect? Science could explain everything one day but nothing would br proven. Even if everything did fit together in the theory, it might be the wrong theory. We might be viewing the world incorrectly.

So onto the Big Bang theory. I’m not a physicist so I don’t want to go into scientific detail (because I couldn’t). Presumably most evidence fits the theory of the Big Bang and yet it need not be true. My personal belief is that science is helpful but it cannot provide answers to everything. Humans don’t need to continue to search until they understand what causes everything because it is an infinite task and I would argue impossible. Physicality cannot come from nothing. A Bang, if it happenned must surely have been ‘ignited.’ Human science could not hope to explain what came before the Big Bang because science explains physicality so how can it hope to explain what was there before physicality. The only answer is to say that the Universe is infinite in time. Well I don’t buy that. Hell I don’t even comprehend that. And what is incomprehendable by human science, what came before physicality, must not be physical but must be spiritual. In short, that which is beyond a physical level, must be on a spiritual level. Whether that means God or what, I don’t know. Whether God was the instigator of the Big Bang I don’t know. All I’m sure of is that something spiritual must have existed sometime and somewhere.

HVD, we’re not a closed system, nothing realistically is in the universe. Now the universe itself, that is a closed system. There’s not actually anything saying you can’t survive in a closed system, we seem to be doing perfectly well right now (and the sun still has a best before date of billions of years).

Human colonisation of any planet is not a realistic view in any medium to long term time frame, we simply do not have the technology.

As for the big bang, what is actually most interesting is that the entire universe could simply be a flucutation in nothingness. We came from nothing (a la big bang), and go back to nothing (big crunch). Most evidence is currently pointing toward a closed universe, of finite space and energy.

The idea that there is no moment when time began is actually quite a simple one, it’s not so much that time is infinite, but that time had no reality before this point.

Macca, seeing as how i have no idea who you are or how you live, forgive me if i’m being presumptuous in assuming that you don’t already follow the lifestyle i’m going to suggest your utalitarian theory points to. you say you live in the countryside. why don’t you get a job in the city and make loads of money, then give it all to the poor starving people in many 3rd world countries, thus considerably improving their life whilst you live on the bare minimum. or why don’t you spend all your time working as an aid worker, or raising money for these people, or doing essentially anything that, whilst making your life comparatively pretty crap makes others’ considerably better. and i don’t mean give a fiver a month to charity. after all, it is all about what’s best for the greatest number.

oh, and i’m sorry that wasn’t relevant to the original topic, it just kind of cropped up.

STOP AND THINK PEOPLE
god was supposively his son
so he can be the animals and pets around us to
we just give them a diffrent name if he is so great then this is true.

he is divine giving the animal a little longer life and the pet more time with you right?

so more less a source of his own will if he ceases to want to exist alongside humanity instead of hiding behind a book all 2-4 thousand years.

so in the beginning one man thrown down from a hyperscape ship
and one woman came out of the earth made by the first man
they acknowledged lies and the bible was made so here we are.

First Id like to humble myself before the great Universe and then state the following.

If the universe is “ever present” and forever continuous or if it was started by some big bang it should change nothing about our thoughts on God. In my humble opinion our "god’ is infinitly more complex than the universe we live in.

How can so many of us suggest we understand the nature of god when we are still discussing the nature of the universe; sumthing “smaller” than god is supposed to be.

What I mean to say is that we may be over simplifying our “God”. I wonder why our definition of god doesnt get more complex as our sciences and minds get more complex.

If anything, these new findings on the universe should create a more complex and amazing god in our heads.

As for living in the “best possible world/universe”. ::shrugs:: Idunno, i like it tons.

the universe and god are equally sized you just by belief
are saying god is larger wich tells me that you think you know
evrything but you don’t knowone can but i am close sense i have
tested my subjects with emotion and without it most people
on here forget to take in decision and questions when they have
a philosophy major mistake.