In which is related the reasoning that though oft cited is o

Assume for a moment that time is infinite, and that the basic constituents of the universe aren’t. The reality of constant change would mean that every organization and constellation of matter in the universe would be formed, broken apart, and reformed, infinitely many more times—exactly as it had been before.

Our earth, stretched thin, perhaps crashes into a star, or the sun, blows apart, disperses, collapses back by a contracting multiverse only to explode outwardly once again shooting the grand stuff that’ll one day assemble into life once again. In the space of consciousness, all of eternity could pass within a single instant, just like a night passes. You won’t know it, but you’ll be sitting here reading this today, in the future, …for the umpteenth time.

I’m not interested in talking about Nietzsche, just the idea of an eternal recurrence—the assumptions, perhaps. More as a cosmology/metaphysics/religion than as a guide to life. As a guide to live, I’m not sure if there’s ever been a better one, or if there’s any flaws with it at all.

As a metaphysics/religion, the premises and assumptions are in principle empirical ones, I would think. It is in principle falsifiable. So that may be a benefit over other brands of metaphysic/religion. The assumptions, further, don’t even seem that wildly implausible. Granted, at one time or another they were both in favor, and out of favor, of the scientific community. I think there’s probably some legitimate room for disagreement, and probably little reason to fully endorse any of them. The point: they don’t seem absurd to me.

In addition to other benefits this general metaphysic/religion may have, one that cannot be overlooked is that it is absolutely critical to ultimately explaining the events that transpired in the Battlestar Galactica television series. It has to be the view that grounded the show. But, perhaps that’s a minor consideration to most people, and frankly myself as well.

Thoughts?

Well, anything is better than nothing at all, I suppose. Which is why narratives like this one will always be around. At least until science comes up with one less rooted in…sheer speculation.

I might have doubted that you thought anything was better than nothing at all, given the extremely irrational and dogmatic lengths you go to, to defend the idea that nothing is better than anything at all.

These men are nihilists, Donny.

Why don’t you think that the universe had a beginning and will have an end?
Isn’t that what modern science says?

I’m not sure, but I don’t think so—only that there was a “Big Bang”, or something. (But I don’t mean obfuscate the issue by deploying that kind of complicated technical jargon. You know, “Big Bang”). It’s perfectly compatible with an expanding and contracting cyclical universe model.

I wish I knew for sure. Understanding reality is like a never ending quest where many have failed. All ideology that passes through the human filter is subject to imperfections and corruptions, like I said in my most recent thread. I feel like allot of it comes down to luck.

Cite the post [passage, paragraph] where I defend the idea that nothing is better than anything at all. It can certainly be deemed so by particular individuals having to endure particular pain and suffering. You know, existentially. But the general idea that this is so? Where have I ever suggested that?

It just doesn’t surprise me that folks continue to come up with thought experiments that include ways to get around the part where folks die and then for eternity become nothing at all. At least in comparison to what they are now.

But I would be the first to appreciate any sort of hard evidence that your conjecture here might actually be feasible.

You call yourself a nihilist regularly…

It is a fallacy to discount what someone says because of your (wrong) speculation about what their motives are.

As I said, the hard evidence is scientific in principle. You can start with evidence about an expanding and contracting universe. I know nothing about it. But that’s not hte point of the thread.

I think that at one time I calculated that there is always approximately infA^3 of exactly you in existence at all times, eternally. It is entirely a mathematical derivation as to whether or not you will reoccur. But I would have to revisit that to see if I left anything out.

Incoherent. You can’t put alphabetical letters to the power of 3.

Why would you suppose this? On what epistemological grounds consistant with your beliefs?

And note: my reaction is not quite the same as Von Rivers. For you to say it would make no difference would also not be consistent with your beliefs. You couldn’t know that either.

What could possibly lead a nihilist, including one like you, to make such a supposition?

(this ties neatly in with what I said in my last post in the JSs thread, so you could take the answer up there)

Okay, you find out tomorrow that the tumor is inoperable. You have only a day to live. Now, if you still have passionaite reasons to live and death terrifies you, being or not being a nihilist won’t make much difference. Instead, like most folks who want to live and that fear death, you might frequently speculate about all of the differenct reasons we may not really die after all. I believe on another thread you noted your own belief in reincarnation. At least I think that was you.

So here is von with this fantastic conjecture about something that is analogous to eternal recurrence.

And I reacted to it spontaneously as I did.

But, for some, nothing will be preferable. Why? Because they believe the pain and the suffering they will have to endure in order to continue on [in whatever manifestation] is not something they want. Again, this will always be embodied in a point of view until and unless science is able to move past conjecture into the realm occupied by the actual laws of nature.

Maybe von is better able to ground these ideas empirically, but all I basically see is a wild ass guess about these cosmic components. Fun to speculate about, sure, but maybe derived more [emotionally/psychologically] from wishful thinking. As is much that comes to us with respect to religion and things “spiritual”.

Ah, so you meant it would be nice (for you) to hear such a narrative. (a subjective claim)
I thought you meant it was good the narrative existed. It was better than there being no narratives at all. (an objective claim)

Can you ground empirically the idea that every person’s metaphysical/religious beliefs are just the product of wishful thinking and emotional states? Because if not…

Speaking of wild ass guesses…

No, of course not. All I can do is react to each particular speculation by asking myself, “to what extent is this conjecture able to move beyond the theoretical and be grounded more in empirical evidence we can devise actual experiments pertaining to or to make predictions regarding.”

Now, based on my own experience with folks over the years, there seems to be a widespread fear [even terror] in the face of death, oblivion. So it seems to make sense that any number of folks might then try to imagine ways that, perhaps, we don’t actually die at all.

Never in a million years though would I criticize or belittle them for doing so. I have my own renditions.

Or maybe subconsciously my reaction here reflects my disappointment that no one has been able to come up with an idea that deflates my own fears. And I’m just taking it out on you. :wink:

The claim is empirical. It’s a claim about the physical universe. The evidence is empirical. It’s empirical in the same way that the evidence for a cure for cancer will be empirical. We don’t have it, but we don’t have nothing, and there’s no reason to think that evidence one way or another just doesn’t exist.

The claim and the evidence are empirical in the sense that the speculation revolves around one possible manner in which to understand the nature of the physical laws that comprise the universe.

But cancer is something we can point to in the human body here and now. And if a cure for it is discovered we can point to that to. Or, perhaps, even point to the equivalent of a vaccine for cancer so that it never has to be cured.

That seems within the realm of something plausible. But to imagine that somehow the universe is constituted such that through “the reality of constant change…every organization and constellation of matter in the universe would be formed, broken apart, and reformed, infinitely many more times—exactly as it had been before” seems a bit more…fanciful.

Or it does in particular with respect to “me”. That somehow “I” too will also reformed so as to be reconstituted [over and again] to live the life I do now…?

I mean, really, how close to or far away from God is that? And you do know that Battlestar Galactica was scripted right? Like when on Star Trek, Captain Kirk says, “beam me up, Scotty”.

It’s always enjoyable to speculate about these things. But some things are always going to seem considerably more implausible to us than other things.

But, admittedly, how plausible would smart phones have seemed just a hundred years ago?

Sorry. It is one of those things that intelligent people do.
You might run across it in mathematics or physics, like “E=MC^2”.

I am not sure that I get it, but here are my thoughts.
Regardless one’s leanings and influences, I guess most people’s minds, sooner or later, are crossed by some conjecture like this one.
I think it is perfectly legitimate and even inescapable to think that “the basic constituents aren’t infinite”. Even if it’s not clear what these constituents are (or what this constituent is), the physical outlook of the world induces the belief that the possible combinations - in the sense of the combinations that may really occur - are limited. Even in the case of increasing complexity, over an infinite time it seems unavoidable that the same series would repeat itself. Having a deck with a finite number of cards, the same deal and even the same game has to repeat itself in an infinite time.

Is it a metaphysics?
I don’t really know if it’s possible to answer to that.
As a metaphysics, it is true that the claim is not about a world beyond our experience. At the same time the conditions for its falsification seem unachievable. It would take a point of view outside the universe in order to perform a conclusive test. This condition is conceivable - but in fact it seems impossible.
It is also difficult to see what elements would possibly corroborate this conjecture.
So in this respect one should say that it is indeed only metaphysics.

As a religion, it is even more puzzling.
I can see the religious element in presuming that the broken parts would reassemble exactly in the same way they have done before – and therefore that there would be many earths with the same history it has had and it’ s going to have.
Assuming that these elements recombine within a limited range of options but somehow randomly, this idea of repetition becomes statistics more than faith. Conversely it becomes more a sort of faith if one assumes that the universe will eventually die out - and, therefore, time is not really infinite for those universe basic constituents.

Does it become more “religious” if one believes that the universe as a whole repeats itself? Well… maybe it would, because then the freedom of reassembling is put off the table, there would be in fact a necessary becoming, with no possibilities, but only one set course of events, only one fate.
But what would “mean” such a governing necessity of all things as a religion - and would that be a “religion”, after all?
Vaste débat…

The letters are placeholders for numerical values. Again, you cannot give the square root of an alphabetical letter.