Nonsense, angel. First of all, if you can’t be a little self-indulgent on a Creative Writing thread, then I truly don’t know where. Besides which, you couldn’t be boring if you tried. Consider my thread yours.
Rainey, I know you didn’t bite, but would you hold it against me if I were to say Bogart would have made a better Rhett Butler? He has that ‘been there, done that’ kinda cool about him, as exemplified in Casablanca. Gable looks like more of a romantic, a smoky romantic, but still a romantic. Not sure if he’s the kind of guy that would find a pigtailed pierced blonde charming, but Bogart might say, been there, done that. Who knows… moving on…
Ms. Liquidangel,
I really don’t know what to say. I am at a loss. I’ll probably need you to again express, in length, what was contained in your honest lengthy response. Copy it before you submit just to make sure you don’t lose it again. I only ask because I just can’t reason with you going on the information I have so far. Trust me, it won’t be pretty. So I’ll keep my magic formula safely tucked away in my magic wand, for now.
Bogart as Rhett? I don’t know. That part seemed to call out more for a traditional leading man type. Bogey never had the traditional leading man looks, but of course he made up for it with more cool than maybe Hollywood has ever seen. Too, I’m not sure he would have been able to put up with the whining Scarlett nearly as long. He wouldn’t have given a damn probably about the first act, thus rendering the rest of the film fairly directionless. When you’re that cool it takes more than what Scarlett could’ve possibly ever offered. It takes Lauren Bacall, asking if you know how to whistle.
All these are good points, Rainey. Nope, I have no argument, here. I concede.
I guess my jaunt was primarily inspired by that ‘I don’t give a damn’ line. I could see Bogey rendering it beautifully.
But now that I’ve read your response, I can imagine B. saying something like, “quite frankly, my dear, this movie blows” right before walking off the set.
Anyway, speaking of cool, I’m trying to do a comparative analysis between Bogey’s cool, and James Dean’s cool (Brando was not so much cool as he was a Jock). Nothing on paper yet, but anything (or anyone) you might have in mind will be greatly appreciated.
Well my initial thoughts are that it’s an apples/oranges thing. Two different kinds of cool. James Dean’s cool was a sort of “too-cool-for-school” kind of cool where Bogey’s was a much more mature kind of cool. You always had the idea that James Dean knew he was acting cool. It was a more self-conscious cool (even though that strikes me as a bit oxymoronic). Bogey’s was more natural and in fact there was an element of self-deprecation about it. Dean would have been too immature to have sorted everything out properly and make Ilsa get on the plane with Laslow, where she belonged.
Aside from Casablanca, if you haven’t watched Key Largo or The Big Sleep in a while, I highly recommend them. They hold up very well.
(Now it’s my turn to apologize, angel. Several posts ago I gave you the thread and look. I’ve hijacked it back. I’d blame it on sangrain but…actually, come to think of it, I will blame it on sangrain…)
Corr blimey. It is indeed sangrain’s fault. I’ve been blind but now I see. Ne’er mind rains, I’ll take it back. I’ve got loads of self-indulgence in me yet.
sangrain…it’s been days (or at least it feels like days) since I wrote that last response. Um…oh yes, on the subject of my (imminent) wedding.
It’s not about fear of commitment, that I can do. It’s not so much the action of committing that I take issue with, but rather who I’m committing to. This who is of utmost importance. Marriage is a contract entered into for life, I’m not from the divorce school of thinking. If one can’t stay in a marriage and work through one’s issues, how is it that one will be able to manifest love and tolerance outside of the family unit? It’s not fear sangrain, it’s caution. India changed me, it deepened my perspective and my awareness within this relationship. I love my man, but I wonder if love is enough. If I love a man who doesn’t MEET me, is it enough to sustain a life long relationship? I just don’t know. That is why I’ve not set a date, I’m waiting to see what he is going to do, and how that reflects who he is. I know it appears that I’m being hard on him, but never as hard as I am on myself. And I’m only hard on myself because I know what I’m capable of.
Due to illness and boredom Today I am forced to do nothing but sit or lay, so I am just wandering around here in a portion of ILP that I don’t go to. Rainey Your work is delightful.
LA you and I don’t get along but, be that as it may. I feel obliged to say if the guy does not MEET you now, then it is not enough to sustain a lifelong relationship because, he will not be able to MEET you ever. Take this for what is is worth to you or toss it on the garbage heap I care not, I won’t be back, Sorry for the intrusion.
Rainey,
Yes, yes, yes,and exactly.
I was making this particular comparison in hopes of highlighting these glaring contrasts. So, yes, very astute observations, rainey.
I really liked that “too-cool-for-school” rendering of James Dean’s cool. It made me think of Ferris Bueller for some reason, well, Bueller’s cool had more pep than angst, probably due to the 80s. I perceive Dean’s cool as a ‘poser’ cool, a superfluous cool, if you will (hey, what do you expect from the french?). While, much like a lady Liberty, it’s now very American, I contend that Dean’s cool is embedded in French origins. Think Camus.
Oh, by the way, I am entertaining this subject because I think both Dean’s ‘rebel cool’ and Bogey’s ‘fine wine cool’ have had a great influence on the American landscape.
Ms. Liquidangel,
You’re straddling your wisdom so tightly that any self respecting mule would feel a little jealous. I dare say you simply have a strangle hold on your wisdom. So, with that in mind, decisions have to be made. Good luck.
Okay, now that we are on the same page (oh, did you think it was a coincidence when I asked you about your trip and whether you had set the date?), let’s proceed.
THE TRIP: Like I always say, mostly to myself, if you really want to know the person you are planning on spending the rest of your life with, go on a grueling trip with them. Yes, I said ‘grueling,’ not the five star hotel treatment. In doing this, going on a grueling trip, you’ll really learn something.
So, out with it. Was he an Ass, or was he not supportive when you were being an Ass? You don’t have to answer that last one. Having gone on this trip, you now have all the information you’ll ever need for future reference.
Let’s assume for a second that he was an ass; that only means you are waiting for his next move.
The Questions: What are you hoping for?
For him to say he’s sorry? Bad idea.
For him to change his ways? Let’s laugh together.
To see whether his is adaptable? This can get tricky.
Before I say too much, I’ll stop here until you give me an idea as to where you are going with this.
Interesting. How so, would you say? And is it possible that there’s something about the American landscape itself that is responsible for producing “cool”?
If I had any wisdom at all sangrain, I wouldn’t be struggling with all of this right now. I always say: “when in doubt, leave it out”. However, it’s not as easy as that for me right now. I reckon there is more at stake than what meets the eye. I’ll get to that later…
And no sangrain, I don’t for a second think that you would ask in passing how my trip was, I do believe that you were going somewhere…I was just a bit reluctant to spell it out, because at the end of the day, do we really want to share all that’s private on the public internet? I don’t mind for myself, I’ve got nothing to hide see, but for the sake of my partner, I think it’s a little unfair. Having said that, it’s also good to talk it through and gain a little perspective. God knows I need some perspective right now.
As for the grueling trip: I suppose I knew that it would test us. The thing is that I’ve travelled all my adult life, ever since I was 21 even settling in a country that is not my own. At age 21, one isn’t afraid of anything, one tends to jump with hardly a thought about what happens next. I’m reminded of the very first time I came to London on a one way ticket with £100 in my pocket. (Either brave or stupid). Of course as one ages, all that changes, but the travelling teaches one things. Adaptability for one - which in my book is a tremendous tool. I suppose where I’m going with all this is that I don’t need my partner to behave in a “certain” way. I am quite capable of adapting myself both to the environment and to the relationship. I didn’t say compromise sangrain. Compromise is for those of us who are willing to do anything to “save” the relationship. Adaptability has a different flavour, it’s for those of us who will risk everything including our relationship to be true to ourselves. It is quite possible to be true to ourselves while being tolerant and accepting of others and their ways. It brings about a win win situation. You win, I win, everyone wins. But if it’s a winning through compromise, that only leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t require him to be adaptable either. I require myself to be so. I don’t need my partner to behave in a “certain” way, I need him to behave with awareness in whatever way he wants to behave…but with awareness. (I need that mirror).
So having said all of that, he wasn’t really an Ass see? It could have been interpreted as him being an ass, but no, he wasn’t an ass, he was just struggling with the difficulties and his lack of experience proved to be the difficulty. I wish it was a black and white yes or no. But it’s not.
So no, I’m not waiting for him to say sorry. He already apologised. And really, he doesn’t need to apologise, I seek to understand him, rather.
No, I’m not waiting for him to change his ways. I’m waiting for him to “get itâ€. He does by the way, get it, intellectually. But the intellectual capacity is only the starting point. He works hard at understanding his own psychology . Let me tell you sangrain, that it’s a rare trait in human beings and one that I value tremendously. It does however become tiring for me to sit with him and unravel his intricacies. It requires me to draw on ALL my experience and ALL my strength. It’s for this reason that I have doubt. I am not a psychologist and neither do I want to play this role. I am not a teacher and neither do I want to play that role. I realise that we are all ever inspiring one another, I can only hope to inspire him from time to time, but there comes a time when I too want to be inspired. Sometimes I just feel like our entire relationship revolves around him and his stuff and it’s starting to wear me down.
I feel like I’m failing in love sangrain. I am afraid that if he and I don’t make it, then how will I ever make it with someone else? What will be different with the next guy? If indeed I even have an opportunity with another guy?
Not to interrupt but I’m always amazed at how ideas work together, even seemingly way-different ones like the two conversations taking place under this thread.
In thinking about what made Humphrey Bogart cool, I am wondering if it’s the same qualities (maybe quality) that liquidangel is waiting to see emerge in her love. Bogey never had to work on his “stuff.” He always seemed to have his stuff together. Now, it might not be your particular stuff, but as stuff goes, he had it all nicely sewn up. And even in the cynical role of Rick in Casablanca, you just knew he had it together enough to do the right thing in the end. This is a very attractive trait, it seems to me, and one we all, as men, wish we had, and why we look at guys like Bogart and find that they reach us somewhere inside. Bogart was not, as leading men go, especially attractive. He was kind of short (both Ingrid Bergman and Lauren Bacall were taller than he), but his confidence in himself and what he believed made that moot, both in the movies and in real life where he won forever the heart of a young, beautiful Bacall who, although married since he made her a widow, never loved the same way again.
Anyway, just an observation. Nothing urgent. Just interesting to me that the two parallel-running conversations share some common ground. Of course, maybe that’s to be expected when one begins a thread with “Torpes chuttle ice-car Funger.”
Indeed rainey. Insecurity is very unattractive.
You know, Casablanca has been mentioned a few time here (mostly by me) and it occurs to me that anybody following along out there who isn’t familiar with the film might be helped by this 30-second rendition of it acted out by cartoon bunnies:
Rainey,
You are a sick, sick man. Casabunca, indeed. Sure, I laughed, and yes, a little louder than I had expected. Caught me off guard. I still think people should see the original before watching this piece. Makes it richer, and funnier, from my perspective.
As far as ‘cool’ and the American landscape, again, yes; I really need to disagree with you at some point, if only to make sure that I can, but I can’t, at this point. Anyway, I can’t do an indepth exploration on this aspect without turning it into a hip-shooting affair. Yes, “there’s something about the American landscape itself that is responsible for producing “cool ” But its the reciprocal element that fascinates me. I have a few fragments here and there on the reasons why, but, again, I just can’t throw them out without shooting from the hip. My hobby time is again scaling back, sorry.
I’d like to give a quick nod to your Bogart observation, regarding Ms. Liquidangel’s situation. When you mentioned ‘stuff,’ as in Bogart having his stuff together, a different word kept popping into my head. Yes, it does begin with ‘s’ as well. Man, now you’re reading my mind.
Ms. Liquidangel, this is all good stuff.
More Questions: If you don’t mind, what nationality is he. If you can’t divulge his nationality, then where has he been most of his life between the ages 15 to now?
Would you be financially set after you marry him? Humor me. Um, I mean, humour me. 'Scuse me as I go take a quick shower.
Sorry, I’m at this time occupied with some stuff, so my internet time may show some lag, but your situation is quite important, so answer away. I’ll try to make some prompt responses.
Sorry, double post.
I’m sorry, I can’t tell you what nationality, nor where he has lived. It gives too much away.
No, I wouldn’t be financially set, to the contrary, I’d lose a bit of financial freedom, but I would be able to pursue the kind of work that I really want to do. So there is a payoff to some degree…but no, he’s not wealthy.
I don’t know, Ms. Liquidangel, watching you flailing helplessly in love is quite agonizing. I don’t think I would ever want to wish this on my worst enemy.
Okay, now that I’ve gotten all the dramatics out of the way, let’s move on; don’t worry about giving me information on him, I was just looking for an easy, precise, way out. Why, with this information, I could have done a quick profile triangulation. But we’re talking about love, here, and as such, that would be too easy. Do I have all the information I need? Yes. So why the hesitation? I am not the one in love. I am not the one faced with this decision. With that said, I have to be as tactful as I possibly can. I think I just heard a few bulls somewhere in a China store laughing at me. Excuse me.
So, where were we? Oh yeah, you are in love. I think love, for most parts, can be equated with stupidity. Nothing personal. Maybe that’s why you said this; If I had any wisdom at all sangrain, I wouldn’t be struggling with all of this right now. Now, am I at this time calling you, personally, stupid? On the contrary, you are anything but, at this time. My reason? I don’t want you to kill me … nah, because you are actually still struggling even in these, the deep throes of love. I mean, most of the things you utter could only ever be uttered by someone in love. And that’s the reason (atleast one of them) I could not reason with you. And now it’s getting ugly. Let’s hope he’s not English.
No, seriously, if he’s English, get out. If he’s English influenced by English philosophy, get out Now!!! Sorry, but you can’t spend the rest of your life with an English fellow. At least not without some major, and I mean, Major life changing compromises … um, I mean, adaptations.
Back to rationalization: I highly doubt this is the time for sugar-coating. You are making a life-long decision. So, yes, You DO want him to behave in a “certain” way. There is nothing wrong with that. Believe it or not, there is a certain way to ‘awareness’ and a certain way to ‘getting it.’ And by getting it, I don’t mean getting it on. I mean ‘getting it’ in the way you phrased it. I guess my questions are: Does his lack of awareness, and inability to ‘get it,’ place you in physical danger, well, besides the possibility of driving you insane? Do you feel threatened both emotionally and physically? If so, then I would recommend these wise words from a wise person; “when in doubt, leave it out”.
Now, if you feel that this intolerance (of his ‘intricacies’) you are experiencing is just a quirk you need to work through, then I can’t help you there. That’s a decision you have to make. It’s your sanity. That whole ‘if not with this guy, then who,’ should not even enter into consideration. You are here, Now. Making this decision, Now. If you are not ready to take it on, you are not ready to take it on. Screw the ‘intricacies.’ I mean, if you can envision yourself in a situation where you have adapted to cleaning up his ‘stuff,’ and still have piece of mind, I’d say go for it. But that’s your decision.
I hate agreeing with Kriswest on this one, considering she was ill when she posted, but she makes a good point. Of course, for all we know, it’s possible she faked that whole illness thing just to stalk rainey. Yeah, yeah, she is madly in love with her husband, but come on, it’s Rainey. I’m sure no one would blame her. But, seriously…
Back to failing in love: Hey, at least you tried. If you lose, you lose, but you tried. You could always try to be his mother. No? How about marriage counseling to iron out the pros and cons?
Another question: Would you, in this particular situation, want to be true to yourself and fail in love, or would you compromi… um, I mean, adapt and fall in love?
Man, I did it again. I started responding and at the very last nano second ran off to yoga and then, I completed the post -once again a looooong post. What happened? I pressed the bloody submit button before copying and lost the lot.
Oh well, it’s patience training I suppose. Perhaps there is a more perfect way of expressing what I wanted to express.
First, I’ve got a curry on the simmer. I’m hungry, I’ll be back later.
A
Right, my tummy is full and I now have the energy to respond.
I’ve been ruminating over your ample response, and I thank you for it because it’s led me to this.
Firstly, no, he’s not English. Come on sangrain, give me credit.
Secondly, under normal circumstances I would also have to agree with Kriswest, but, it’s not as simple as that is it? Here’s why.
While thinking about all the things you’ve suggested, I came up with some questions.
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What is the purpose of relationships?
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What is it that I want more than anything else?
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Is it possible to achieve the purpose and to get what I want within this relationship?
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What is the purpose of relationships?
The way I see it, of course, and we need to keep in mind that this is my mind, that certainly the purpose of love is to love. LOVE sangrain. What exactly is that? Hmmm good question. Love should be enough but Love is not enough. Love is just the glue that holds people together when times get tough. And boy do they get tough. Love is the foundation of relating. Compassion is unifying. It makes us think about the other person. It makes us do good. Relationshps must be about the greater good. They must be about the good of the other. They must be about selflessness and NOT about selfishness.
- What is it that I want more than anything else?
I got to thinking about what I really want. I got to thinking about the place I want to live in, how I want to live. What country I want to live in. What places I want to visit. WHO I want to live with. WHO I want to live with. All people that we are in some form of relationship with mirror us in some way. Certainly, the person closest to us, the person that we share our day to day mundane lives with is the one who mirrors us more perfectly than any other. I think that most of us want to live with a perfect version of ourselves. And when that person is less than perfect, it’s so much easier to judge them, become upset that they are not who we ourselves think we are. But really, what is it that I want? What do I want? I WANT TO KNOW WHO I AM.
- Is it possible to achieve the purpose and to get what I want within this relationship?
Of course it’s possible.
I’ve lost my way. I’ve gotten caught up in this is good and that is bad…all judgements, all ego.
Thanks for your input. I know what I have to do.
A
… ha ha, consider yourself credited.
Come on Ms. Liquidangel! You submit a highly response-worthy post and expect me to sit on my hands? There is just so much to take apart. But alas, your journey is now decided. Best of luck. Keep me updated.
Oh, and rainey, sorry I haven’t gotten back to you regarding the ‘cool’ journey. I figured you were busy beating Kriswest off with a stick. I really have to stop.
Anyway, you posed a deeply entrenched question and I am not sure I can satisfactorily answer it. For example; when I look at both Dean and Bogart, the timeline is not all that significant. Let me qualify: They actually live within the same life time, so whatever heavily influenced Bogart might have had an impact on Dean, as well (not necessarily so, but still). Bogart had lived longer, and perhaps seen more. I doubt the landscape during Bogart’s earlier time was heavily media saturated so perhaps his ‘cool’ was not as heavily influenced by cinema, but by actual dealings in his day-to-day life. By the time Dean was a star, media stylings were, I believe, becoming more influential on culture in general. So in Dean, you now have this brooding young man dipped in a vat of melancholy. And this was cool. For the younger generation. Having the rugged Marlboro Man good looks and not giving a damn were icing on the cake.
I can still see Bogart’s cool embodied in the lives of those Tom Brokaw termed The Greatest Generation, and perhaps some of the Boomers. While Dean’s cool seems like a rite of passage, Bogart’s cool just seems to endure. See? I am all over the place. I’ll holster my pea shooter now.