Individual-I, Collective-We

The Human Animal generally-defines itself in one-of-two ways throughout Amerikan-English-Culture: as an Individual-entity, or, as a Collective-entity. Here are some very common terms-of-referencing the Self: individual-“I”, individual-“You”, individual-(masculine)-“He”, individual-(feminine)-“She”, collective-“We”, collective-“Us”, collective-“Our”, collective-“They”, etc. Throughout my philosophy career and personal life, I have observed a very strange and provokative phenomenon within our Contemporality (of the 21st Century anno domini). People conceptualize their-selves and their “self-image” according to how they actually-think & cognize reality (on a case-by-case basis). In other words, when a person speaks or writes “I” v “We” pertaining to any particular context…that person is conceptualizing reality through a process of “self-defining-identification”. Therefore when a person constantly & consistently-refers to thyself as “I” or “Wehe/she is defaulting self-definition & self-identification to a personal or non-personal source, respectively-speaking. The implications for these affects coincides with the study and application of Psycho-Analytic-Logic, or, Psychoanalysis.

I cannot determine on my own whether my observations are flawed or not without proper empirical-testing (referring to experiential sense-data) & philosophical-discourse (social-interaction). Thus I employ Psychoanalytic case-studies and reference my philosophies with others, or, to another individual-you. You, the Reader, are my second-source for thinking. And I intend to directly-speak with you through my writing insofar as you are an ‘individual’. However many, many people are not Individuals. If you-yourself are confused about whether you are-in-fact an Individual then it is a safe presumption to make that you probably-are-not an Individual at all. The reason that the qualification is Absolute is because Qualitative-designations are not produced-by-degree whereas Quantified-designations are. Therefore I may not be directly-speaking with you after-all (for those of you who are not Individuals). All of this depends on how thyself is self-defined: as an individual-I, or, as a collective-we. A proper dichotomy ensues.

Logic:

Proposition #1~[I]≠[We].

Proposition #2~[I]≡[Ego]≡[Id]+[Entity].

Proposition #3~[We]≡[Collective]≡[Sociality]≡[Group]≡[Non]+[Entity].

[size=160]Individual-I[/size]

I am ‘Myself’. There can be no doubt of this fact since the statement is 1) self-referencing & self-evident, 2) tautological, and 3) a basic-social Truism. For example, I do not say that “I am Faust”, “I am Kriswest”, or “I am Pandora” because these statements would be false, lies, or slander. I just am “Original” as I just am “Myself”. There is no deviation; there is no confusion-of-terms here because I know who I am as an Individual. And I am an Individual precisely-because I am a ‘Man’, and not a woman or child. I am Self-Defining, Self-Identifying, Self-Sufficient, and perhaps most important of all… Self-Responsible! Very few other people are the same as I because of various degenerative social diseases, especially-pertaining to the predominant theme of “feminization” which I will briefly-speak-upon in the paragraphs-to-come.

Masculinization:

Generally-speaking, the I-qualifier is a term that represents men, or, a singular/idealized Man (I am “God”). This is the so-called “classical way of thinking” throughout the Western World and Philosophy-in-general. This is the common mode-of-thinking: Women cannot be men nor can women hope to become anything “close-to” men. I did not invent this pattern-of-thought, but, I was raised in an Amerikan Society that praises such socialized-values. Thus a “real man” is an Individual. And a woman can only-aspire to walk in the shadow of a man, at her best. She can never exceed or even equate to Man. But is this idea true? I leave this issue for you to ponder about and decide upon because what cannot be denied at all is: Man is an Individual. And any Man that has not gained his independence, and hence his individuality, thusly-is no “real man” at all. He is a mere boy, or, a man-child. I do not know if these statements are true in a social sense-of-speaking; however I express the sentiment on behalf of cultural norms from where & whence I was raised to believe-in them (as a Standard and Principle). Have I changed? Or has sociality-itself changed? Has feminization rolled-through the entire world? Again, I do not know the answers to these questions because sometimes things do in-fact change.

Women use the verbal-preposition “I” and therefore cannot be denied the grammatical connotation nor its affects. However this fact does not imply that women are individuals as this presumption would preclude a non-engendered usage of language (which literally-is-false). In other words, Amerikan-English was developed through Latin which heavily-reinforces masculine & feminine pronouns. Certain terms & people are either ‘Male’ or ‘Female’. Though times definitely-have changed here & now (in this specific regard). Nowadays in the West, all forms of distinction (even literal-grammatical distinctions) are being “washed-away” by over-socialization, over-population, and the concrete global-institutionalization of mankind. The Future is being paved with a certain blandness, ‘Non-Distinction’, ‘Non-Discrimination’, ‘Non-Differentiation’, etc. This social phenomenon directly-implies that anybody may use the “I” proposition without “earning-it” per se. To reiterate myself, all Human Animals are born with so-called “Human Rights” which are mere ideals & fabrications, as social constructions. Egos are built… and not necessarily-maintained without positing a vast assumption: people are in-fact individuals! But this blatantly-is-false. Not all people are Individuals as not all people are ‘Equal’. In-fact I would even make the contrary claim if pressed on this issue: “Nobody is created Equal at all!” because no person is in-fact synonymous with another person (“I am not Faust”). Even identical twins are separated by their spatial locality…

Moral Responsibility:

The greatest connotation of the Individual-I is that it presumes a certain degree and reaffirmation of Moral Responsibility because to state ‘I’ is also to claim ‘I’ as a mathematical & logical function. In other words, anytime ‘I’ is uttered… ‘I’ must be owned (by someone or something, an identity). Thus when men, women, or children are forced into using the term… they all must be contextualized as “Morally-Responsible (for themselves)” in some possible regard. Remember to say “I” is to own “I” and all of the derivative actions and subsequent personalities that come with the connotation.

I have found throughout my case-studies of certain psychologically-damaged persons that the dissolution of the Individual-I is perhaps the first sign/signal that an adult has a serious psychological or mental-disorder. The individual becomes confused with him/herself as an “I-Identity”. In one case-study, I dove into the mind of an online pædophile where-when-pressed with the issue of confessing to his deeds and guilty-conscience he mentally-broke-down and began to show disturbing signs of a Multiple Personality Disorder. Rather than taking responsibility for himself and his lifetime of decrepit social behaviors, he began to utilize vague & ambiguous collective terms to refer to himself in the second or third-person narrative. “I” became: “We”, “They”, or “He” & “She” in the third-person narrative. On another case-study, I analyzed both a Solipsist & Narcissist who beset themselves with an over-usage of “I” terminology. In all of my cases, the individual-I v collective-we expressions remained rather consistent and measurable. How people write literally-translates into how they think (as Individuals). This cannot be denied and therefore must indicate signs of a certain (individual or social) Pathology.

Throughout my case-studies, empirical-evidence and particular contextualization have both remained clear: some socially-degenerate persons subjectively-cognize their-selves at (contradicting) cross-references and cannot be reasonably-forced into a position of Self-Responsibility. The after-affect speaks for itself: Social Degenerates have 1) no account of personal responsibility, 2) selectively-reason out their own moral accountability, and 3) display no logical/rational/reasonable consistency in arguments pertaining to Self-Reference. I conclude that these social degenerates (mostly males) act in such a way to illicit certain social interactions with like-minded degenerates. For example, the pædophile subject justified himself and his deeds through a rigorous discourse of skewed argumentation whereas the evidence of other pædophiles and their similar offenses against young, underage children only-helps & reinforces his claims that his own behavior is ‘Normal’ or even ‘Justifiable’. Yet still no self-responsibility is portrayed outside of the selective-reasoning of the individual. It only-is ever implied by the individual. Regardless of the fact, certain presumptions can be made through linguistic trend-analysis regarding what may or may not be the actual case of such social degenerates.

To conclude:

The Individual-I Self-References-Self, ensuing Self-Referential logic (as Subjective). But ‘Individuality’ remains Ambiguous. What is an Individual? Who is an Individual? How does somebody become an Individual? These questions are further tainted by the person who answers them. Are they Individuals-themselves? Yet there is a solution which is to say that an Individual 1) is an adult-by-principle, 2) cognitively-(correctly)-disassociates ‘Self’ from ‘Other’, and 3) can contextualize a basis for Self-Conceptualization and Self-Reference through the regard of a greater (social) context. Hence “I am One of Many others.” Again it should be noted that nobody is born an ‘Individual’ just as newborn-babies are not adults. Men are not little boys. Women are not little girls. And so on it goes. Adult men & women are created-by-societies of peoples. And the Human Animal Specie remains very diverse even as it fragments into new paradigms. The individual-I still holds strong.

[size=160]Collective-We[/size]

We are not ‘Me’, ‘Myself’, or ‘I’. This is true because I am an Anarchist and neither bow nor bend to any other Ideology except my own. I am a Philosopher. I am without a Sociality. Therefore I am not a part of any kind or type of ‘We’ or ‘They’ beyond my upbringing in Amerikan Non-Culture. The ‘Non’-(Culture) represents: Non-Distinction, Non-Discrimination, and Non-Difference. Thus those people of whom constantly & consistently-utilize the collective-we linguistic modifier do so out of their “Social Dependency”, or, their dependency upon the Global-Institution from which they were born & raised. Most people are ‘Socialists’. Almost all women are the same in this regard; case-studies emphatically-prove time & time again that a predominant number of men are ‘Atheists’ or ‘Anarchists’ while women are not. The reasoning behind this logic is abundant and frugal, but, beside-the-point. The fact is: a vast majority of the world’s population of the Human Animal Specie are ‘Socialists’ because very few people (men) are fit to be-or-become ‘Individuals’. Henceforth the collective-we is best fit for those of the feminine genetic predisposition to deal with, and, define-as-such. But this does not mean that I will not offer my (invaluable?) perspective on such matters.

Feminization/Socialization…Over-Socialization:

I cannot speak on behalf of others since I am an Individual. Therefore I will relay my own experiences in-life and use it as an analogy to what others may or may not experience in their own lives concerning their subsequent maturity-through-institutionalization. There exists “The Institution” or “The State” powers. However this collective-we is abstracted along with everything-else in-life; it is a ‘Sociality’ of course. Human children primarily-are raised by parents (mothers) who have continually-raised children since the beginnings of Human History, all the way back to the Ancient Human Tribes. Women are Mothers. Men are Fathers. These are generalizations that still exist today as a paradigm despite the incessant attempts of Western, Amerikan Society to demolish them in-exchange for a more ‘Artificial’ state of Human Nature. In other words, men are still (masculine) fathers while women are still (feminine) mothers. But the role-reversal is imminent inside Amerika for a few particular reasons: 1) gender-discrimination is now demonized, 2) gays & lesbians are given open access to reproduction & parental-roles, and 3) liberal-socialist Amerikans are rewriting and revising grade school history books of children in-order to more easily-indoctrinate them into the Sociality, the collective-we (Non)-entity.

Social Nihilism:

All of this implies that children will grow up to either assimilate into the state-institution according to their mental indoctrination (and physical submission) through social propaganda (while their minds are flexible & weak), or, resist such indoctrination. To resist social indoctrination is to necessitate “Social Nihilism” and subsequently-undergo a type of “cleansing-process” where the Individual-Self is embarrassingly-stripped-down and violently-absolved of its previous (degrees of) social indoctrination. Thus one becomes a ‘Nihilist’, facing every form of social ostracization imaginable, thoughts or attempts at suicide, fits of rage in-public, murder/homicide, criminalization, being outcast by all peers, death, or even much, much worse. Very, very few will ever go through such experiences in-life and thus very, very few will ever-even garner the chance to call thyself an Individual. But why would one resist social-indoctrination in the first place? This is a great question to ask. What do women have to gain from Nihilism? ~the answer is: nothing. What do men have to gain from Nihilism? ~the answer is: everything. I attribute this fundamental difference to the concepts of ‘Pride’ and ‘Paternalism’. In other words, to become a “real man” a male must throw-away all the freebies that his birth-society has to offer him and earn his own keep in the end. (the word “keep” is significant here since it retains the Medieval connotation of a Castle, of which men are Kings…)

Grammatical Usage:

Men probably-use the term “I” much-much-more than women. While women probably-use the terms “We” and/or “They” much-much-more than men. I could be wrong because the rate-of-communication, and technological style, vastly-differs between men & women. On average, men verbalize much, much less than women although this may not account for the differing styles of communication. For example, writing/typing could deconstruct the preconception that women speak much “more” than men do (or more frequent). For example, men can communicate in various mediums (like bluffing at a poker game). Taken even farther… a dominant majority of books found in Libraries are written by men of great knowledge. All of these texts can be added-up and used to contrast the male/female communication divide by-context. Regardless, again, the connotation of the collective-we cannot be denied. On a personal basis, I observe that females/women utilize “We” very often, on a scale that may not be comparable to males/men. The reasoning for this logic is very complex and I will do my best to describe & explain the innate physical & biological differences between men & women…

Anthropology and Biology:

Women utilize the collective-we out of basic repetition and social-identity. Generally-speaking, women do NOT have any kind or type of individual-identity on any significant scale because women generally-are-not seen as ‘individuals’. ~why? The reasoning begins with Anthropology, and then moves to Biological “differences” between the Sexes throughout the Genetic Evolution of the human species. (I realize I used two “bad words” in my previous sentence: “differences” and “evolution” so I should be more careful about not offending anybody here…) Anthropology presumes that the Human Tribal Structure of the Early Human Species utilized men & women based on their respective capacities to carry-out tasks such as 1) hunting, 2) gathering, 3) bearing-children, and 4) raising-children. Men were assigned to more ‘disposable’ or ‘valueless’ social roles to reinforce & preserve natural hegemony over the tribe. This means & implies that men primarily-engaged in 1) hunting, 2) war, 3) territorial guard and defense, and 4) hard-labor. Women were predominantly-relegated to “easier work” as their body-frames were not as physically-capable of the same strenuous tasks on top of the fact that to lose a woman to death is not as easily-replaceable as replacing a man (since a woman can partially-replace the physical labours of man while the inverse of child-birthing for men is impossible).

Fast-forward to today, our Contemporality, and many things have changed while other things have not. Women are still assigned to more ‘socialized’ tasks & jobs. Women still bear & raise children. Women still teach & care-for children during their infancy stages. Men are still professors of academic or ‘graduated’ knowledge, and, the paragons of maturity. The reasoning for both of these run down into Biological Differences which cannot be so easily-separated from the facts as-if Human History could be rewritten as a whole by one stroke of Feminism. This is not Reality. Thus women speak on behalf of ‘We’ and ‘Us’ unlike any other men. The literal & metaphorical connotations are as various as a great chasm. This fact primarily-is-because of another fact: Women are the child-bearers of Humanity. Thus women are the Future; and men have no Future except through the womb of a female. This notion is ‘Dependency’ opposed to ‘Independence’, or contrarily-speaking, ‘I’ v ‘We’. A man who is Individual only-exists insofar as he is childless. Once tied-down to (or “settled-down” into) a Sociality, his ensuing feminization & domestication begins. He becomes tame, impotent, and wrought with old-age over time. This is Inevitability.

Nationalism:

The default for either “We” or “Us”, in men, becomes Nationalistic according to Societal and Moral-Values… especially-Moral-Values. Think of the terminology: “The West”. What is “The West” and what does the term mean? ~What does the phrase connote? The Answer: the phrase connotes western philosophy, or “Amerikanism”. This is Globalization, Over-Socialization, Over-Population, and methodical Institutionalization by an “NWO” figurehead of the world’s richest elites (men of great wealth who have monopolized the world’s material resources: IBM-Macintosh, GM, Exxon-Mobile, etc.). Therefore for men to speak of “We” or “Us” almost-always becomes defaulted into one of “National Pride”…which turns out to be a mere excuse for docile individuation. It is the “bottom-line” insofar as the catchphrase “Aren’t you an Amerikan!?” means nothing to an Individual. Thus to have “pride in one’s country” becomes superfluous logic, and, irrelevant to any generalized discussion. The literal connotations become meaningless as generalized conceptions.

Specieism:

Women are protectors of the “Human Specie” because they are the child-bearers and child-birthers. This is the key. A woman’s mind runs like clockwork when it comes to Specieism. For example, Kriswest automatically-will make the claim that we are all “Human” as a Biological Category. But is this statement correct? Are we all one Race, one Identity, one skin-color? Are we all one height, one weight, one eye-color? The answer resoundingly-(absolutely)-is “NO!!!” (and Kriswest is in-err) because differences are real despite ALL attempts to selectively-reason them out of existence, as a kind of “Reverse-Nihilism”. This brings me to the topic of ‘Selfish’ v ‘Selfless’. A denial of Reality cannot help thyself in either direction: to gain individual-identity, or, to completely-lose or annihilate it. Back to the point-at-hand, women must protect the concept of ‘Human’ because if they do not then they will risk bearing “sub-human” animals which potentially-shall be exterminated or aborted by State/Institutional Decree of the upcoming decades & centuries. The alternative to the “sub-human” categorization is a “trans-human” animal, or, a (genetically)-‘superior’ evolutionary specimen. Thus women must guard such divisions with their lives which goes-unsaid; they do so anyway as they are directed by their biological & instinctual impulses.

When a horse is born-retarded and cannot walk in the ‘Wild’ (which has become abstracted as a concept), a male horse will approach the foal after the mother has unsuccessfully-attempted to coax it to walk, tightly-nip the foal by the neck with his teeth, and violently-slam it up-and-down against the hard turf, snapping its neck and killing it. The mother will come galloping over to stop the male (as her instincts dictate) but it is too late; the foal is dead while the male trots away to escape from any possible retaliation. This is the notion of “Natural Selection” which is unbeknown to most Westerners in our Contemporality since over-socialization has sparked generations of improperly-culled children on national levels. I recommend that the uneducated types do extensive research on the topic of “Natural Selection” if this conceptualization seems excessively-violent or abhorrent to you. The Human Specie is fragmenting into two within our Contemporality because Natural Selection has been usurped by a certain, predominant, Judæochristian Mentality wherein the most weak, the most decrepit, and the most unfit human animals are not only-allowed to subsist, consume valuable resources, and breed…these actions are even encouraged by religious & fundamentalist institutions. Therefore it will seem ‘crude’ and ‘cruel’ to women & females for those of the ‘masculine’ predisposition to recommend killing such infantile humans as they exert one of the greatest forces amongst over-population. And over-population is a social, collective-issue directly-pertaining to ‘Us’ and/or ‘We’. I have no sufficient answers here.

Selfishness v Selflessness:

The ‘I’-(ego) is Selfish. The ‘We’-(Nonego) is Selfless. Coinciding with Nihilism, and those whom hate thyself, the collective-we always-is-favored over the individual-I. This is a fine portrayal of the Nihilism inherent within all people, foreign-and-domestic, individual-or-social. Such a mentality hates ‘God’ as an Atheist because such Solipsists cannot perceive a Universe where-in-which any other Ego exists as larger than their own (and they know nothing of ‘Humility’. Not coincidentally-speaking, such Atheists usually-are men. On the flip side, some women have Ego-complexes and refer to themselves as ‘princesses’, ‘queens’, ‘divas’, or ‘goddesses’ which indicate a contrary-version of male-Solipsism. For women, the issue often goes unwarranted. Women generally-are forgiven of their childishness, dramas, frivolity, or even stupidity in-exchange for “respect of the womb”. As a side-note, this often is the reason-why men pay women such attention and “buy-into” the petty dramas of women in-order to entertain the female ego of its over-inflated sense-of-self which may-or-may not be appropriate to the circumstance (depending on the individuals involved).

Social Indoctrination necessarily-implies a distinct & succinct loss-of-self, or Ego. Hence women cannot claim to be Individuals AND to be Social under the exact-same pretext of literal connotations. It would be a definitive impossibility. Therefore a divide must be made between the individuality of men, opposed to the sociality of women. I already-mentioned this thinking near the beginning of the essay. Is there a contextual-link? ~probably. Are men individuals? ~definitely, except under the pretext of feminization. Then all bets are “off the table” because if a man can be considered ‘female’ then all paradigms shift to the (abstract)-issue of “gender discrimination”. (as if being female had literal worth…) Apparently-speaking, it does in our Contemporality. Therefore even Individuality and Sociality must become evermore abstract than the concepts already-imply! If a woman dresses like a man, walks like a man, talks like a man, thinks like a man, drives a manly-car, drinks a manly-drink, and fucks a manly-fuck… then does all of this prove that she is a he? You decide…

To Conclude:

I will continue to take-note and special-interest in those who utilize “I” v “We” terminology. What I judge is that there exists very, very few ‘individuals’ throughout Human History. As over-population inflates & inflates, the competition for the top-spot of Humanity becomes evermore violent, dangerous, and hard-to-top. The smartest exponentially-become ever-smarter. The strongest exponentially-become ever-stronger. The fastest exponentially-become ever-faster. And the richest exponentially-become ever-richer. These are all Truisms as indicated by 1) Human History and 2) Population Growth & Theory. When a person, male/female, utilizes ‘I’ v ‘We’ the context must be preset by an indicative psychology. I am equipped to handle such evidence as I am an Individual before all else.

I aim to leave on a note…what are you? Are you an Individual or are you a Social?

Do you have a ‘Self’ or have you become ‘Selfless’ and devoid of any individual worth, become immersed within the Institutions you protect?

You are being disingenuous. You observe hungry, you observe taking food, eating it, the hunger vanishing. Your ‘reality’ is self-validating.
It is as you perceive (and so much more).
You certainly don’t require independent evaluation and validation that your nose itches before scratching it, at which time the itch seems to pleasantly vanish. No verification needed. No indepth study of the various itch scratching devises, nor their relative value, etc… You perceive the nose, you perceive the itch, you perceive the finger, you perceive the itch-scratching procedure occur, mindlessly, Zen, and then, sweet relief.
Then, you start thinking about it and all the ‘ego’ fun begins. See?

We are Conscious Perspectives, Souls. One Consciousness, many unique Perspectives.
‘Individuality’ is a relic of the ego/thoughts that ‘perceive’ a ‘subject/object’ duality.
We are the sum-total of every Conscious Perspective that has ever perceived us.
We are “the complete Universe (which) is defined/described as the sum-total of all Conscious Perspectives!” - Book of Fudd

Do you have a ‘Self’ or have you become ‘Selfless’ and devoid of any individual worth,
[/quote]

We do not ‘have’ selves, we are selves! Exactly as perceived… and so much more! *__-
It seems that history has shown us that the most ‘valued’ acts are the ‘selfless’ ones. The ‘self’ of ‘selfish’ and ‘selfless’ is the egoPerspective, the egoic image of an autonomous individual self. Ego and pride are two factors not found in the equations of ‘charity’ (not taking more than your share of resources) and ‘compassion’ (knowing that the person needs to be in the condition that they are in, and being there for them with love and understanding) or ‘empathy’ (at-one-ment), (things you claim to be “devoid of any individual worth”).

Nonsense. The notion of ‘we’ is all ego! There must be multiple 'I’s for there to be ‘we’. It is egoPerspective that perceives apparent subject/object duality. Your distinction between I and we is faulty, by definition.

Nonsense, i protect no institutions.

Bye the by, welcome to the forum.
peace

First I will say to you, namelesss, that you have no Authority over what I am being.

I am being honest & straight-forward. You are being facetious & superfluous.

I certainly-do require independent evaluation and validation.

My independent evaluation is experiencing the sensation of the itch. My validation is my scratching that itch. ~See?

No, I do not “See” your point. The ‘ego’ is a slow process of maturity that never ends; it progresses or regresses depending on circumstance & age.

Then you are a Social because you speak on behalf of some undefined, ambiguous, nonsensical ‘We’ non-entity.

On the other hand, I only-speak on behalf of ‘Myself’. If I speak on behalf of another without Authority then I am in-err.

I have a terminology for this: “Multiple Personality Disorder”.

You are correct about one-thing here…Individuality is a relic (of the distant past) where men owed-up to their word with Honor.

The subject/object duality is a non-issue as it concerns the “I-Identity”. First you must have an Identity to understand, namelesss.

Your moniker signals that you have Non-Identity since you have no name. You are a “no-namer” and your existence is ambiguous.

Whatever you or they or us or we will say… :unamused:

Of course they are…

…valued by whom? ~the individual? ~the society?

If one does not resist social indoctrination into the state-institution then one will be (socially)-punished for not displaying & portraying Altruism.

It is a zero-sum game; you play the game to represent your devotion and slave-will to a God-head. You act on behalf of a Higher Authority.

That is correct.

And ‘selfless’ represents the loss-of-self-identity, or, Nihilism as I already-have-explained.

Where did I claim that ‘charity’, ‘compassion’, and ‘empathy’ have no individual worth??? Did I state that??? ~No, I did not!

(I do not appreciate your slander…)

Every statement you just uttered is false.

Any notion of ‘We’ must contain at-least-one ‘I’, God (being The State for you), and anymore becomes excessive and intolerable.

You protect your ‘We’ which is undeniable after exposing yourself in your response.

You protect your faith & dogma that your State will protect you…which is unfounded logic.

I thank you. :smiley:

^^^ Sorry that i wasted our time. There is nothing in your response that is worth the time to address;

On the contrary, you wasted your own time. My time is not wasted because I spend my time how I choose.

Then I am happy & fortunate that you have no Authority to speak on behalf of ‘Us’, ‘We’, or ‘They’.

:smiley:

^^^ Well, you are already proving obnoxious and have just earned the award for the speediest trip to my ignore list.
Now I don’t have to read your crap.
Unsubscribing from you and your thread.
Sweet.
Bye bye.

I just knew there was a little Id-Ego hiding somewhere deep inside of you, namelesss.

It just required a little coaxing to come out and speak-for-itself. Good job, I am proud of you! :smiley:

I apologize in-advance if I have offended you somewhere.

I hope that you will point-out to me where you feel insulted so that I may correct & improve my style-of-argumentation. :smiley:

original,

you might have called yourself “PRONOUN”. :laughing:

I might have but I did not. Is it not a random occurrence???

I call it… “Fate”.

Do you have anything to add to this thread, Arc? Or do you just need my attention? :-s

Original

That’s a very good question and honestly at the time I did not read the thread, i just skimmed the surface, as it is so vast as the ocean, but I will jump in at some point. :unamused: You might have broken it down into little streams. :-"

As far as your pronouns go, I don’t see them as a random occurrence – they were very well thought out from the looks of them. I myself don’t see much of anything in the universe as random - everything appears to me to be well thought out – a really intelligent pattern.

At the same time, things can seem to go awry but how do we know that this too is not part of an ongoing pattern? I think the saying is that “god writes straight with crooked lines”. There are many squiggly lines in the universe. This might also speak of how the universe is being created, becoming…nothing random but at the same time, paths do veer off in this direction or that…if we look at it another way, everything flows into everything else. What flows out of eventually flows back into. How can there be random in that – I see only a continuation, an ongoing flowing.

Perhaps I ought to reexamine why it is I find it difficult to see these things as random. In an intelligent universe, can there be random? Or is everything just helter skelter, this mistake and that, this accident and that? Every instinct tells me this is not so but I will have to reexamine it.

And what is it that you call Fate? If we truly mirror the universe as I think we do, there is no fate, there is just that ongoing flow which has the freedom and the choice to make an intelligent decision for itself – to veer off the path, to stay on, or to leave and come back.

I hope I haven’t ruined your thread…it must be the weather. I will be back though.

:laughing: I cannot answer that question…perhaps I do need your attention…you should be so lucky :laughing: but as I don’t know who you are, how can I answer that question? :-k :banana-dance:

original:

stream by steady stream. this…

i don’t quite get the “THYSELF” in here but nevertheless … anyway, if i do understand what you are saying here, i am not sure i do, all i can say for now is that sometimes people fall into habits. we are in the habit of expressing our thoughts and feelings in a personal sense, we zone in on ourselves, our own personal perspectives, which is okay, instead of incorporating the universal word, or “we”. that’s all for now. it might be useless, i don’t know.

The Entire Universe is an Ocean.

First of all, you need to define “We” because I do not know what or who “We” is…

What I do know is that Everything transpires through Reason; Human Knowledge (as Epistemology) is the result of a wholistic-process.

“God” creates perfect Forms. So you are correct; “He” tempers all broken paths into one impossible symmetry.

There are infinite.

Who says the universe is being created instead of the Entire Universe already-is???

The ocean flows as does the universe. The universe is the ocean multiplied by 10^x.

To what things do you refer?

Intelligence is Human Agency.

There is no such thing as an “intelligent” universe so your question is moot. It would be analogous to posit an “intelligent” rock.

Nothing is an Accident.

When a drunk driver kills an “innocent” family this is no “Accident” as there is no such thing as “innocent” in the first place.

Human Ignorance is no-excuse for any Resultant-Logic. Therefore all accidental events are devoid of moral responsibility on behalf of the Observer. Such categorizations signal (to me) a devoid sense of Self-Responsibility or Self-Reference. Nihilists, for example, physically-cannot-ever take responsibility for themselves as men or Adults. A drunk driver usually-is lying when he apologizes to his victims because:

  1. If he truly-was-sorry then he would not have driven drunk in the first place…
  2. He socially-is-pressured into issuing his apology (as Alcoholics cannot be responsible for another by-definition)…
    and 3) An apology does not resurrect the dead; it merely-alleviates social levels of guilt & blame…

Everything that I have control over is Fate. And I have control over Everything in the strict-sense where I morally-am-obligated to myself to state Truth-claims opposed to Lies. Anything-else is just a matter of (unconventional) social trust and local-relations. For example, think about this: a butterfly flapping its wings in some distant forest. It is “I” who is responsible for eliciting this thought into YOUR head as I am the one who created/conjured the thought. Is that butterfly real? That is another Matter…

That would depend on how you define thyself

I seriously-doubt a Woman could ruin my thread so think nothing of it.

Man-children-Nihilists who annihilate themselves and their (individual)-identities, however, are a separate issue…

At least you are honest. :wink:

Do you want to make-out with me? :romance-kisslips:

I am flattered.

ILP is a small philosophy forum on the internet; sometimes you know-naught who you are dealing with around here.

Exactly-what do you “not get?”

People fall into habits as they fall into trends which can be analyzed, predicted, and extrapolated: basic pattern-seeking.

The Human Animal is-as-predictable as an Ant.

Again Arc, define “We”.

Original

Yes, one might say that and it is a beautiful way to look at it. There are as many mysterious things within the ocean and it’s depth as there are within deep space. And tell me, how many ways are there to drink in the ocean?

that would depend on each particular moment I am speaking but - when I speak of “we” above, I am speaking of all those people who are interested in exploring the universe and its possibilities - scientists, philosophers, mathematicians, “dabblers” and you and I, original and who ask the questions – what, when, where, why and how – how do we know what we know?

And as such would also include imagination and intuition - anything that is part of an holistic process, includes the totality, not only what we eventually come to learn of something, but also how we perceive it, intuit and imagine it. Where would “we” “humanity” be today without those other faculties, original?

Are they perfect forms or do we simply perceive them as such and do they grow into themselves? And is there really a “He” in god? Or are you of an extremely patriarchal sort of nature? How could Something that possibly created all of this simply be defined as a “He”? c’mon now, original.

And they are eternal

That would I suppose depend on who you are speaking with. What already is, is finished, complete. To me, the universe is becoming, at every moment, somewhere, though we may not know it, it is changing, being transformed, becoming, even as you and I are original.

There are the four seasons, always changing becoming, different, though we may not perceive it;

There are Tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, droughts all of these change the universe, break it down, process it into a becoming though we may not always see the differences;

At every moment the ocean changes without and within, just walk into it and it is suddenly different and has changed, shifted. I think it was Heraclites who said you cannot walk into the same river twice. The moment you set foot into it, it is changed.

The sun itself that we look at is not the same sun, it has passed on, history, gone forward.

The stars we look up at and love are not the same stars – somewhere they are 10, 15, 20 years older now or died out, but we continue to get their light.

At one time, if we had been able, we might have held the entire universe in our hand, can you just think of that, as I was able to hold my Yoda in my hand when I first found him. Could I now hold him in my hand? Of course not.

As we (in this country) now recycle, so does the universe, it has been recycling for some billions of years now. Old stars that have long since died out have turned to dust and “become” recreated into new stars. as I type these words, more and more new stars are being born, or recreated. Other galaxies and solar systems are squiggling their way into an “ongoing” creation.

Everything in the universe is becoming. You might think that the universe already “is” because everything comes out of everything else though transformed…but I think of it as constantly transforming, growing, becoming…it does not remain static, it is in constant flux, as we ought also to mimic the universe.

so then how can you see the universe as “IS”? and though I do not know what 10^x is, I would still wager that the universe is even far beyond that in relation to the ocean, vast and utterly amazing as they are to me.

everything that “seemingly” and “apparently” comes or occurs that makes me ask the question: is this an accident? Being in the right place at the right time, something or someone coming to me when I never asked for it but it is still looked at as serendipitous in nature. All those things that I stand in awe of and grateful for and because of which I see a universe that is intelligent, a universe that is not random or accident, but one that does draw with crooked, squiggly lines but in a straight line.

Ha, some philosopher you are…you simply posit that there is no such thing as an intelligent universe and thus: there is not. Perhaps you just put me on the road to perceiving that maybe the universe is not so intelligent, after all. How can you possibly not see the universe as intelligent? I think humanity might have destroyed itself eons ago were it not so. Look around you and get real, you see no endless patterns, no cycles, no destruction, no re-creation, you don’t perceive nature and the elements as part of this great intelligent dance that is the universe?

If nothing is an accident, then you surely contradict yourself, no? if there is no accident, then there is intelligence!!!

There is the innocent but I would agree with you here, insofar as a drunk driver making the very stupid decision to get into his car drunk. In a way, if I stretch my mind, I can also see how this is no accident as everything flows from and into everything else….everything is interconnected and part of a great big whole that continues to flow onward……… at the same time, though we are determined and we are also emerging, and choices are those things which can perhaps allow us (humanity) and the universe to draw straight with squiggly lines.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying we are NOT responsible for our actions? We are still responsible for our actions, we still make our own CHOICES.

if I am understanding you here, I am in total agree with you. A lot has to do with self-awareness. Unfortunately sometimes it is far too late before someone arrives at self-awareness. Apologies are most often attempts to actually shift the blame, to ignore self-responsibility totally, to assume a mask of goodness. At the same time, there are apologies for when someone truly is sorry. if i am not understanding you, elaborate please.

or perhaps you might say that there is no such thing as fate. If we have control over things and ourselves, would we call it, fate or destiny? I am still thinking about this one. As I said, I do think that there are no accidents, nothing is random, hmmm, but we do have it in our control through each Moment, to change that which comes to us, our fate as you call it. Perhaps there is only “fate” when we feel no ability toward movement, toward self-responsibility.

…but think about this… how do you know how the thought of that butterfly got into “your” head, original? Perhaps some kind of “universal” thought put it there. At the same time, you put it into my head but it is my choice to let it remain and think about that beautiful butterfly flitting around in some distant forest – or not. The butterfly IS real somewhere, in some part of the globe. And perhaps as you read this, one will alight in your window. The dragonflies that I love to be near in the summer – they may not be around in the winter, but they are still every bit as real to me. Though they may have been transformed and become something else, they are still real.

damn, what I actually want to do is to stop defining myself…since I am as ever-changing and becoming as the universe itself is, how am I to define myself except through feeble attempts. Perhaps I am the universe, ever-changing and becoming. And perhaps you are not so much “original” as you are a continuation, an ongoing flowing becoming little universe, too.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Hmmm, and pray tell what brings you to this silly biased, blocked-off conclusion? Well, you did say “seriously-doubt” so perhaps there is hope for you in your closed off lack of “imagination”. but that may just be how i am perceiving you…how you want me to perceive you perhaps.

at least as adults this is something that we want to do, don’t you think, totally annihilate ourselves, our ego, that which we think we are, as I myself in these moments am beginning to see for myself and to do. who we think we are is so far removed from that is becoming. We must totally deconstruct ourselves, tear ourselves apart and then rebuilt ourselves, hmmm, even the word “rebuild” connotes something “finished”. So perhaps we must simply be as the ocean, as the universe, and continue on to becoming….

See, indeed a woman can ruin your thread

:-k so here it is, 5:34 am or thereabouts and you are asking me that question. how I would want to know who you are. How do I answer such a delectably inviting question? at the same time realizing you may simply be playing, or perhaps you are feeling vulnerable in these hours.

If you are indeed vulnerable, how could I possibly take advantage of you? I would rather run from you rather than take advantage of you, unless I knew that taking advantage of you would indeed serve you better, and then it would not be taking advantage.

Aside from that, how could I possibly know if you would be someone I would even consider “making out” with? Would you be worth my while, what I mean is would your “inner man” indeed be someone I could be attracted to and get lost in? want to become possessed by and to possess? I would not, could not, make out with just any man.

Aside from this, I do not know you. So many ways in which to answer this question. you do have the distinction of being the first one to even ask me that question. and I am indeed grateful that you had the courage to open yourself up and take a risk like this.

So because of all of this, what can I say? I could say that “I refuse to answer on the grounds that it might incriminate me”…and perhaps this is exactly what I ought to say…at least for now. Do you see what can emerge from a simple question?

Oh, I certainly know this…but do you really?

They also fall into habits through lack of self-awareness and introspection, through ego and laziness, through the inability to be responsibility for themselves and their choices.

Hmmm, not every human animal. I love that phrase “human animal” as that is what we are or perhaps or perhaps we might call ourselves animalistic humans. But would that carry a different connotation? And that being said, I shall certainly strive to become more unpredictable. Who wants to be predictable anyway? Are ants really that predictable?

Well, at first I thought that ‘we” is humanity, or those people who perhaps think and feel as I do. Maybe I am wrong though – if I stretch my though processes and go deep within, maybe I am really defining ‘we” as simply myself. Why must “we” – or “myself” bring others into my own thought processes? At the same time, who the hell is the “I” that I speak of so often? Perhaps I ought to drop the “I” and simply say “that which is becoming?

So…has “that which is becoming” ruined your thread yet?

At the same time, there is still the “We” as I defined an eternity ago.

I will get into more that I haven’t touched on when I have the time. The ocean is indeed vast.

I say that, Arc. And I will it. :sunglasses:

For those who live in the ocean, and deep space, there are nigh-infinite ways to swallow a draught of water.

You and I inhale drafts of air… air is very similar to water in certain ways: ‘Æther’.

I mean, generally-speaking, who are “We” Arc. You are the woman here; You tell me.

So you mean just a few philosophical men? Outside of these 2 or 3 men, I see few or no others who truly-are-interested in exploring the universe and its possibilities. Do you know why…? The reason-why is because most people are simplistic-cowards who run-in-fear when they breach the walls of Pure Possibility. They tremble & shake with the most fundamental Existential fear & anxiety, as mere children beholding Death-itself in their hands. Are you an Authority on this, Arc? I presume, you being a sheltered & protected female, have no clue regarding the negativity of life… which is Death in His coldest form… unmoving, stagnant, absolute zero. Nothing changes here.

So again I presume you are speaking of just these few men of great knowledge & wisdom.

(Women and children need-naught-apply, correct???)

But you and I are not together because we have not merged into One as I remain an Individual. My individuality remains insofar as I resist you and your sociality, your beauty (if you have it), and your pussy. This is because you are a woman and represent ‘We’ while I do not. In-fact I already-have-mentioned these points in the OP.

:wink:

That depends on what you are, Arc… and how you define thyself!

We would be dead of course. But would I be dead if I am not a part of your ‘We’???

Everything that I perceive is perfect in the strict-sense that things-actually-exist-as-active.

Perception cannot be at-fault by-experience or Epistemology is impossible. Rather, it is human projection (of Probabilities) that fundamentally-is-flawed.

God arises from Good. Good arises from Plato. Plato is an Author. Authors are men.

In the case of God, God arises from Man so “yes” God is a He. God is derived from Plato-himself.

Judæo-Christianity and their “God-concept” merely-is a perverted taint of the Golden Age of Hellenism.

If Things were up to me Arc then I would banish ALL Judæo-Christians from Philosophy Forums on the internet as they have no conception of Free-Thought, Free-Thinking, or Free-Expression. Whether Dualists or Monists, Judæo-Christians preach a slanderous dogma & dialogue of unoriginality, derived from where they neither know nor care-to-know. I have a phrase for them:

The Eternal Children of God.You may relate to them insofar as you are a child Arc.

I am very patriarchal as I am an Individual and a Man. But that is beside-the-point here…

Created all of what, Arc…??? Your question is misleading. Are you implying that God-as-a-Metaphor created the Universe???

The term “God” is just a term nihilistic man-children throw around to pretend their intellect. Without originality, the term is meaningless.

What leads you to posit this statement, my dear?

I disagree with you here, Arc.

What already-is may be Undefined. And when what-already-is, is Undefined, then-and-only-then can something said “to be-becoming” something-else.

…becoming what, Arc?

An acorn can become a tree, Arc. But there is a beginning (the seed) and the end (the tree). Do you see??? :happy-sunny:

The Entire Universe is:

Transforming… into what?
Growing… into what?
Becoming… into what?

…Birth?
…Death?

Are rocks born??? Do rocks die??? This is Human-Anthropomorphism. Elements do not live & die… do they Arc???

It is difficult for me to explain, Arc. My words are a mere device for you to look through my eyes and my scope of the Entire Universe.

That is Infinity and Imagination multiplied-by-itself. That is the definition of The Unknown-and-Undefined.

Again, Arc, you are attributing (human) Intelligence to innate or inanimate-objects. This is an error in your thinking.

You sound/seem tainted by Judæo-Christianity or New Age bullshit. I recommend to you to clear your mind of this garbage & nonsense.

I thank you for your complement, my dear! :smiley:

Was that my reasoning………???

I did not posit the negative. On the contrary, I posited the positive:

I know Intelligence through myself as a (human?) animal.

Because I do not believe in fairy-tales or Santa Clause, Arc, and neither should you.

Join me in a Post-Christian world where all the vile-taints of Judaism are washed-away from a Reasoned-Perspective. Arise to the level of Theologian.

There are the simple-minded followers, the flocks & peasants (Christians), the shepherds (Jews).

There are also the kings & queens in their castles, dating far-far-far back to the Hellenes and to the evermore ancient Tribal-Shamans: First Philosophers.

All ‘intelligence’ that I see is tainted by-myself. Do you not understand nor comprehend the power of your own mind, Arc!?

Tell me how a rock is ‘intelligent’!!! :confusion-scratchheadyellow:

Where do I contradict myself? I am intelligent-as-man, not-as-insect, not-as-rock.

………as Man!!! ~as Human Animal!

And where is this intelligence??? Where does it originate??? Where does it begin & end???

I already-stated: within Individuated-Discriminating-Man! ~within I.

Where is the “innocent”, Arc?

If you make claims here then you must backup every assertion…

That is a good inclination on your part, Arc. I am proud of you here. =D>

Choices determine circumstance & outcome.

You half-understand me. The Individual-I is Responsible for thyself. Man is Responsible for Himself.

(…excluding cynics, solipsists, and nihilists who negate the Individual-I. These man-children are small boys, perverted and broken by Pressure.)

It seems you understand me, Arc.

Furthermore, any form of “true” Regret could, would, and should actually-prevent the drunk driver from apologizing at all. Because his words will not bring back the dead as I already-mentioned. If he truly-repents then he would 1) pay retribution for the dead as per the whims of the family (including taking his own life via suicide if the survivors state that he must), 2) never drink alcohol again, and 3) understand that an Apology only-pleases & appeases the destroyed emotions of those attached to the victims. But this scenario is a nigh-impossibility. Most-if-not-all drunk drivers who do such a thing only-apologize as far as their Self-Awareness will allow them to.

Therefore you are correct. Self-Awareness, and Self-Responsibility are the key here.

An (uncivilized) animal has less (intelligence & responsibility). These people are known as “barbarians” and such.

Why would I say that, Arc? Am I a woman who renounces Self-Responsibility and my own Individuality???

You could call it either as both represent the Past, Present, or Future of your choices.

Though Self-responsibility is Movement, Arc! This is the point!

If you have no ‘Self’, no control over ‘Self’, or no definition of ‘Self’ then you are empty! ~a Nihilist! [-X

I recalled & conjured it, Arc. I am responsible for the Thought… for thinking as an Individual.

But that is false. A universal-what put it into my head??? This is where your female-brain cannot understand my male-brain.

My thoughts do not arise from an “outside-source” per se but from an “internal-source”.

…hence the thought is Original, derived from I.

Is it your choice??? Or is it mine???

How far does my Will dominate and compel your own, Arc???

This is disassociation and conjecture. You are making the butterfly real.

All I did was introduce to you a Hypothetical-Reality.

You make it ‘Real’.

I spotted a Monarch Butterfly sometime within the past 2 or 3 weeks. I believe I was riding my bicycle at the time, perhaps. It is hard for me to remember. What I do recall was its bright yellow & black designs upon its wings. It was just a moment, a split second, and that image became finely-ingrained into my Mind. This is because Discriminating Minds such as mine, and such as those minds shared by my closer-brethren, see the world through a very powerful scope. Beauty is magnified a thousandfold at least, if not an infinite amount of times.

Then your mind is weakening. To define thyself is to become stronger & powerful, like a Man and a Philosopher.

Arc, if you pay close attention to these words then your learning here can defeat the arguments of almost all others on this website. Of course, I do not presume that this is your desire. But you can and you should. If you truly-are interested in Philosophy then at the very least, as a female-mind, you should emulate the male-mind to the best of your abilities if you cannot integrate. And you cannot integrate without a biological-merge. I mean sex. Sex and DNA are the true passages of Knowledge between men & women as males & females are not like-minded at all, but rather, contrary and contradicting to each-other.

Start with Individuation, likened to a Man. Use a man’s tools. Let a man guide you through Philosophy and Knowledge, through his realm.

No, Arc, do not overshoot too far and name thyself-as-universal. Your aim should be toward Self-Sufficiency and what suffices your thirst & desires.

Do not “pull a MagnetMan” by-claiming that “You” or “We” or “I” are God(s).

Stick with blood & flesh for your ruler. Stick with Reality, what you can feel and caress with your hands… whose saliva you can taste upon your lips.

:romance-kisslips:

I only-am a continuation of myself, Arc, as are you.

The Universe is an extension of self, toward Infinity, individuated. This constitutes [u]Human Knowledge[/u].

Well you could just-try if you wanted, my dear! :laughing:

Dear God NO!!! ~Arc! You woman! It may be beneficial for women and the female mind to annihilate itself because Nihilism does not affect women as it does men. But do not recommend this to me or toward adults!!! Do you not realize the purpose & intent of this thread yet??? As an Individual, as a Man, and as an Adult, the very-last-thing you should annihilate is thyself! But you still need to first define thyself, Arc. Since you are a woman and a female you may need a man and a male to do this for you

Can you do it on your own, like a “big girl”?

That may be the case my dear. I consider that this may be an impossibility for women and the feminine-mindset.

But being an Ocean is no loss for a pussy. Women just are. I have no problem with this; do you???

Nonsense! ~it seems to me that nothing has been ruined as-of-yet! :laughing:

Arc, if you plan to learn from me then start by never answering a question with a question even though you may be accustomed to this through your bad habits. Secondly-speaking, do me the pleasure of PMing me your pics so I can determine if you are near to my ‘tastes’ in a female. Worry-naught; I do not bite (very hard). I only-require to draw a little blood, just a drop from my play-pals & sex-slaves.

:evilfun:

Yes, you are correct here Arc.

True again… not “every” but indeed most-are.

It would my dear.

…why? ~do you believe you can overcome my thinking in a backhanded-manner?

I would retort to say you should just-remain as you are, Arc.

What is wrong or flawed about women except that she lacks the brain of a man? Why does she need to think when Man does it for her?

…nobody, Arc, nobody-indeed truly-wants to be predictable (or Dead).

Fortunately-speaking for you and I, people survive through ‘our’ murder & consumption of Others.

Indeed, ants are compared to Man.

I say to you Arc, drop the individual-I and replace it with the collective-we as you are Woman.

This will increase your Womanhood, lest you desire to become me-myself-and-I. Is this your desire??? I doubt that it is… :wink:

Of course not, it has naught because it is I who is becoming something ‘inhuman’, evolving, growing, changing… according to MY will & direction.

I am in-control of Myself.

Then spill-over onto me your Ocean. I aim to know your ‘We’, my dear. :smiley:

Original

you really are striving for individualism, aren’t you, Original or would it be power. one would derive from the other, and visa versa? What if I said that tree barks are orange, and I willed that, would that necessarily make it so?

I actually meant the question in more of a mystical way.

since you asked me the question: generally speaking, we are Man, humanity. What does my having to be a woman have to do with it? I am first of all human and then a woman…as you are a human, and then a man.

Are you scientifically speaking or philosophically speaking – in exploring the universe?

You might have to explain to me what you mean by “Pure Possibility”…seeing everything and anything in the universe as possible…perhaps completely thinking outside of the box (where you might even put your hand into the ocean and draw out an alien species?) pure possibility as having no fear, just abandoning myself to everything and anything (hmm…that of course, may not be too logical or reasonable).

Am I an authority on what…experiencing and allowing my existential angst? Why do you assume that I am a sheltered and protected female? What to you is a protected and sheltered female, Original? If I am such, it is my own doing, yes, “time to deconstruct”. Some have accused me of looking at life through rose-colored glasses but I do also see/feel the negativity of life, it’s gross stupidity, most often it’s seeming futility, utter destruction, lack of awareness, consciousness and love, though I am no nihilist. Life can truly suck at times, many times – but where do I want to draw the line between being nihilistic and giving myself the choice to see something other than that too. They are both part of life, they are life itself. At the same time, when life is calling on us, me, to self-destruct (not suicide) and to become reconstructed, that is a choice that I have to make. Sort of like in the realm of pure possibility – anything becomes possible for me if I can possibly move forward without fear, without counting the costs. But words are cheap.

When we suffer, have pain, it is a form of dying and death and it can feel like we are in the deepest darkest pit without any consolation, unless we reach out for some. Yes, this might be felt as” as we “freeze” we are afraid to move into the pain, to allow it, to allow for that pure possibility. Perhaps when we sense the call to deconstruct, it is because somewhere within we sense ““unmoving, stagnant, absolute zero”.

the whole of humanity is not capable of exploring the universe and possibilities but women and children can and do apply. Children indeed do it everyday…it is when the get older and become adults they become more boxed in, less capable of seeing the wonder and possibilities. It is the same with women. Do not bunch us all in together. As we are individuals, it is an individual thing. Many men are not capable of seeing ANYTHING except what is in front of their two eyes, and even this they cannot always see, they choose not to.

Do you feel that human beings lose their individuality if they “merge” as one, either sexually or through love or interdependence? In one sense, we all represent the WE, but at the same time, we are all individuals. Don’t put me in a box with other women because I am a woman. I am a human being who is an individual first.

Certainly not the way you define me. At the moment, I am a work in progress. Sort of like Michaelangelo’s david or a building which is imploding, removing the dirt and debris, and under reconstruction.

Hmm, so are you saying that as I perceive something and experience it, it is objectively real? I see “possibilities” not “probabilities, as far as philosophy and science goes.

on one level, I understand what you are saying, on another leve, that statement makes no sense to me whatsoever. If there is the divine, it didn’t “arise” from “anything”. Plato speaking of Good and God doesn’t make it so. You almost seem to be making Plato the god. And authors are both men and women. And “Man” is both men and women.

Can you really say that ALL of them have no conception of………. throwing the baby out with the bathwater here? I understand what you say - when I came onto this forum, I might have been one who was not capable of a lot of “free thought” maybe (Christian ties). I have shed so much skin since then.

No, simply that there is a possibility that the universe came from Something…as much as it is possible that it came from nothingness (which might be saying the same thing). Labeling changes nothing.

Intuition and experience. How could there possibly be anything else to go on?

Yes, I can see that, insofar as there is no movement there, it remains undefined.

But only if there is movement. If it remains stagnant and unchangeable, there is no possibility of it becoming.

possibly Nothingness, back into that void that it began as…perhaps an entirely different universe with the recycled dust and debris that THIS might someday be. There are endless possibilities…just as there are endless possibilities of what humanity might become…

well, you seem to see an end…how could you possibly know this?

Whatever it wills. It is all part of one ongoing process, Original.

I know absolutely nothing about geology but all I can say here is that they are given rise to over time, “become” you might say, out of pressure and fire, as we all become from pressure and fire, they evolve and are transformed. Are they born and do they die? Everything is an ongoing process of birth, death, birth and transformation.

Yes, as are mine to you. Perhaps I can see farther with your words. Know of any good books which encompass geology, astronomy, biology, anthropology, philosophy into One book? That is what I am looking to read at this point.

. Speaks of unlimited and pure possibilities too, to me.

. No not Human intelligence – Intelligence. I intuit an intelligent universe through its ongoing patterns, processes, creation, destruction, re-creation, transformation. Do you think this is projection? why would my thinking be faulty and yours not? prove it.

So perhaps the human animal that I am can see an intelligent universe out of own faculties of intuition, intelligence and perception.

don’t worry I don’t – though fairy tales do point us to truths we can glean. Theologians…like for instance which ones?

Tribal shamans sound good to me.

So are you saying that my perception of an intelligent universe is a projection of myself, of my own mind/emotions? How can we possibly know which of us is seeing more truth here, Original? What is apparent may or may not be real.

well, when it is kicked, doesn’t it have the intelligence to move out of the way? (LOL) Laugh at that. I thought it was funny. :laughing: :banana-dance:

. Ah and I do agree with you on this. Enough so maybe to even kiss you. Only kidding.

I actually laughed when I read this. How intelligent can we at times be, Man, that is?

Perhaps it has never had a beginning nor will it have an ending….it lives within the essence of “I Am Who I Am”……………and always becoming. How’s that for theology my dear? Every instinct within me speaks of an intelligent universe.

and where do you think your intelligence came from, Original – follow the roots all the way back from your genes backwards…………………………….

well, thinking on reincarnation, if there is such a thing, maybe there is no innocence. maybe when we are born we are tabula rasa or not. What we do in each life brings us karma. Perhaps our souls are not innocent so who are we to judge innocence. Can anyone be truly innocent.?. Perhaps an hour-old human zygote, perhaps not. I myself am truly not innocent so how can I judge another? But am I able to judge an action and must I be able to judge my actions? Is judging an action the same as judging a person? That is a question that I have argued with a friend of mine…he says judging the action IS judging the person…but I say no…there is a distinction insofar as our thoughts and feelings towards that person do not move in a negative way.

So do our indecisions and inability to move and to overcome ourselves

That would depend on the dynamics of the accident. At first glance, we can’t determine this. We would have to see more of a picture…go backwards. at the same time, i can intuit what you mean.

Okay so thyself points to yourself. Man is responsible for Himself. There was a time i felt a bit differently about this but since then I have assumed utter responsibility for myself and my own actions, thoughts, feelings, despite my beginnings. I am therefore also…I am who I am.

I’m getting there. :slight_smile:

I can feel what you are saying here…how can “I am sorry” account for the loss of a human life…but at the same time, how can one NOT utter those words, though they would be futile and meaningless perhaps. How can one NOT? The suicide scenario would only suffice and bring meaning if revenge was what one was feeling in their soul, and not pain and terrible loss of a loved one.

I have some experience with alcoholics and I know that unless and until they “want” to have self-awareness and move toward help, they will have no self-awareness.

There have been moments in history when we ‘civilized” people have called others “barbarians”. We have in fact been the barbarians, unaware – they may have been totally aware as with the native Americans. Much intelligence and awareness there – we on the other hand, chose only to take from them, not to learn from them.

I think I see what you mean here by fate, if am seeing it. MY fate is MY destiny and I do control it insofar as I make the choices which will determine it. My will, my determination and the outcomes thereof are my fate. No one else in the universe can be responsible for my own outcome…only myself. If it even seems like someone else might be, it is because I willed it, it is my choice, my fate. If I have not willed it, but simply allowed it through no action, i am but a leaf blowing in the wind.

again we agree. This pleases me. :slight_smile:

are you so sure of this? I look at the top of the trees swaying in the wind or a dragonfly flitting around in the air and a thought comes to me. Isn’t this an external source giving rise to my internal idea? Hmmm?

As I have already told you, only insofar as I WILL it. It is my decision, determination to move for or against it. Don’t be deceived by appearances. :laughing:

. Obviously, this is how I view the world too and much within it. Perhaps my brain chemistry, my history, a soul that was reborn with it - perhaps I just choose to look and really see. We all see and are touched differently – it amazes me. It must be something even more profound than everything I mentioned.

. Or like a giant Oak or a beautiful mountain. I am Woman hear me roar. Is the divine made stronger or weaker when we humans with our feeble minds try to divine it? I explore myself question myself…must I be left with a definition of myself. Doesn’t that then end myself as becoming? cannot that tend to make us self-satisfied and lead to no movement…damn why is this sounding familiar?

Be careful Pygmalion – you do not want to fall in love with Her who it might appear you want to create. But go ahead, you can certainly guide me in re-creating Myself. And are you propositioning me here – first the invitation to “make out” and now….or am I misunderstanding you? Have you ever heard of spontaneity? (LOL) You can explain the above passage to me.

I have a question for you here. If it were some other woman who came here to your thread, would you be now speaking all of these same words to her? Just a thought for you to ruminate on and get back to me with.

So this is how you would define me, as simply something self-sufficient and embracing my passions? This is all you would choose for me – what kind of a Pygmalion are you after all. I would choose to reach for the stars – why do you think I called myself arcturus rising rather than let’s say – “rock”? hmmm, might I see a bit of fear of competition here? (only kidding about that). But c’mon I want More, much more out of life than that which you would have me have. I do not call myself a god though we all have some bit of that essence and that spark of Whatever within us.

there is more to reality than that and at times it that can also take us away from reality, if we are not aware albeit that is certainly reality…the human animal has been given many wonderful primitive things to keep us going…procreation itself is not simply about children but about passion and creativity, learning how to use and allow those primal drives, instincts, those sensual urges that allow us to rise above (and beneath ourselves (LOL) ourselves and to become……… damn, now you have me going (only kidding)

. This is what I have in essence been saying perhaps you have not been listening.

naw, trying is lying, about ruining your thread. I choose to just go with the flow and see where it takes me, at the same time, I am ever my own fated possibility. I am an ever-flowing amor fati in perpetual progress, though i do indeed struggle to overcome myself and my laziness.

I am not a nihilist nor do I plan to annihilate myself in such a way. I do plan to destroy and rebuild. I feel great joy as I feel great pain – at the same time I am fully alive as I bring death to myself (not that kind of death) though it can be death as in a void. Much void.

…you’ve got to be totally kidding. That would send me back to the caveman days. You speak of Individuality – is it only to be for men? How could you possibly teach me anything Original if you think I can only be defined by a man? A man and a woman compliment each other in some really beautiful ways – but at the same time, they remain separate as individuals. Even when they are deeply in love with one another and loosening and dropping those boundaries, allowing each other in in the most intimate ways imaginable (not necessarily speaking sexually, but that too here), they still at the same time remain individuals.

you are also not my FATHER. Yes, I must do it on my own, with a little help from my friends. in some ways, we are an island but at times there are boats that come in toward us. And I am disappointed in you. But that’s okay, humanity is a learning process, even for you.

Best be careful lest you lose the beautiful feminine aspect which is a part of a man. You do not lose any of your masculinity in this. it may just help you to get a Real Woman. :laughing:

we shall see what we shall see.

Often another question might emerge from one question. I do not see this as a bad habit.

why don’t you just give into your obviously very vivid imagination and see where that takes you. I’m beginning to wonder if you are an alien species (just kidding) oh my god…let me tell you something – if you do indeed have sex-slaves, then I am not the woman for you. And be careful lest the slave become your master. You are so funny. I can just imagine you sitting at your computer typing all of this and laughing. Tis very funny indeed.

Supposedly, hahaha, it was one of man’s ribs that were taken and given to woman – not a piece of man’s brain. Who are you, Satyr? With much gratitude do I not have the brain of a man – at least not in this life – unless you are indeed leading me on by the nose of reverse psychology. Are you?

Now that moved me. why? what are you dealing with?

. Hmmm. you just sounded really familiar to me but how can you be? Well you can be. must put a rein on my imagination here.

is this what you call reverse psychology? Although I do embrace that part of myself as woman who embraces everything, the we, I can be both – an individual and at the same time, be a part of the interdependence, interconnectedness of the universe, of Mankind? Or would you have me be Borg?

Why would you not wish for me what you would choose for yourself?

what ocean would you be speaking of? And I am doing just that now, in many ways.

Original:

i saw this on a PBS special…don’t think it was a horse but some animal. I understand what occurs in the animal kingdom…its “natural” cruelty, perhaps there is even sense to it in the Animal Kingdom…but it was a horrible thing to see. I screamed and cried when I saw it and I also cursed out the animal who did it. and I am sure that that mother grieved. I know that elephants grieve their young.

I do not think that only the Judaeochristian and female mentality has a monopoly on human love and compassion or that only they themselves would see the act as crude or cruel. I daresay even an atheist and many many men would be appalled at the thought of destroying human life because of its weakness or because it does not fit into one’s category of what a true human animal, human being ought to be.

But then again, the vision of the animal killing the imperfect little animal calls human beings to my mind. This is actually what we DO with our unborn children when we know they will not be born perfect or they are a simple inconvenience to us, we are unable to feed them, care for them. We abort them, sometimes with as little thought and feeling as did that horse to the baby horse. Or perhaps there was more forethought insofar as that horse was concerned. Animals are not human beings though and the phrase “human animal” does still have the word “human” in it.

Would an animal destroy a baby animal simply because it was an inconvenience to it and because it might not be able to feed it. that is not this thread though.

Perhaps if there were extensive research done, humanity itself might just disappear much sooner than later. What need of research do we have since we have already for years been doing away with mankind by means of our kind of human “natural selection”. “Survival of the fittest” does indeed flourish among us. We have already become part of the nazi mentality.

So perhaps we are more so human animals than we think we are. …wending our way toward actually becoming animals without a soul.

And what would it be next…destroying the aged, the sick, those children and adults who do not adhere to our natural selection of perfection. How much of a leap does it take to go from HERE to THERE.

Original,

where did you go? did you drop off the face of the earth?

and here i thought perhaps i might just learn something from you in here.

but perhaps the challenge of not wanting to give you my picture was just too much for you to take. what a shame, just when i was getting into this thread of yours.

Coward!!!

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

:astonished:

:laughing: :laughing: did you just bunjy jump or something? :laughing:

my head exploded from trying to understand this topic.

useless divisive political plagerism.