Information as belief

If we construct a narrative in which all information is belief, then what difference would that make?

I believe that the Sun is a gaseous sphere.

I believe that Osiris’s re-birth pre-figures my own re-birth.

What is the difference that could make one a belief and the other something other than a belief? Is there a difference in utility? Is is more any useful to believe in one than the other?

Xander.,

“What is the difference that could make one a belief and the other something other than a belief? Is there a difference in utility?”

Rather than utility, I would say efficacy. Utility implies material goals of quantity. Information is something that makes a difference, the kind of difference that is attempting to be made will determine the nature of the kind of information needed. Information is world-constructing as well as world-changing. The meaning of the Sun as a gaseous sphere of a certain number of atoms, or Osiris rising lies in as much in the construction and orientation of your subjectivity, as it does the accomplishment of activities once that subjectivity is constructed. To know is to alter one’s state.

Dunamis

So do you see our state as being constituted of information? Or does information become knowledge only when it alters one’s state?

Xander,

“So do you see our state as being constituted of information? Or does information become knowledge only when it alters one’s state?”

I’m not sure what you mean by “our state being constituted”. Our state is constituted by differences in assemblage. All these differences are degrees of knowing. When new information, new differences affect our state and we are altered, our assemblage has been put in relation to other assembleges, so a degree of knowing has occurred.

Dunamis

Could you further explain, “Our state is constituted by differences in assemblage.” Are you saying that we are made of information?

Xander,

What would being “made of information” mean to you?

Dunamis

Argh, there is no suitable answer. It would be a framework of understanding, a model to explain the relationship of being and information. Being would by just a set of information and new information added to that set changes the set.

This at first does not concur with the idea of self as a body until molecules and atoms as subatomic particles are also modeled as information.

However operating within every healthy human body is a mind that is a information processing system. Part of this system creates our everyday sense of identity. This is made up of information so again new information here could change ‘me’

Before I can answer - belief as opposed to/differentiated from what?

Knowledge?

Xander,

“It would be a framework of understanding, a model to explain the relationship of being and information.”

I am inclined to believe that to be is to have an effect. The consequence of that effect is a result of differences, which is information. So Being and Information would be interwoven.

Dunamis

The sun is a gaseous sphere, is supported by observation.

Osiris’s re-birth pre-figures your re-birth, is not information that is supported by nature.

Try this,

  1. If I have a headache I should put a pin needle through my eye, because this is what the Almighty Ak Shik BAhserak would want. All Hail the almighty Ak Shik :evilfun:

  2. If I have a headache I should drink a lot of water, and take some rest, possibly take a tylenol.

Do you think its useful to believe in one more than the other? What if you come to me, and I’m your doctor, and I can show you and explain to you based on previous knowledge concerning previous patients that option number two is very useful, and option number one will get you into quiet a bit of trouble.

Then you may possibly go to your Ak Shik preist, and ask him why you should believe in what the great Ak Shik has to say about headaches. He goes on and on, but can show you no direct link to observation. He cannot support his claim through nature.

Anyways… man its late I just got home… all I’m saying is that if knowledge is supported by nature, by observation, then it is usefull, if not then well then thats a belief.

D. & X.

We are finite both physically and mentally, so we could be viewed as a big mass of information fluctuating through time - if ‘seen’ through a strange enough lens… :astonished:

Well - I haven’t been to the sun with a gas-chromatograph, and I wasn’t there at the maternity hospital to check Osiris’s DNA profile… Or if you like, I haven’t died yet and my maths is too crap to follow the proofs in astrophysics. Really I can’t verify either of those statements, and so it would be hypocritical to say I believe one and not the other.

Science has better toys to dangle before us in this life, and is better advertised - so people with no real reason to, believe. But I dare say if Osiris started a widespread mass media agressive advertising campaign - giving away free action figures - his number of followers would just shoot up.

Hi Rounder,

  1. If I have a headache I should put a pin needle through my eye, because this is what the Almighty Ak Shik BAhserak would want. All Hail the almighty Ak Shik

  2. If I have a headache I should drink a lot of water, and take some rest, possibly take a tylenol.

How about I have a headache (caused by myopia), and Almighty Ak Shik BAhserak tells me to shine a laser-beam through my eye…?

Tylenol - I’m a biologist (among other things) so know why it works, and even how it works, to a reasonable extent. Other people believe the Doc., accept the mana that falls from scientific heaven, and pop it in their mouths. Poof - headache gone - magic.

Okay, I can know (as far as I can know anything) that Tylenol works by verifying it personally, so can you - but using that ‘part’ to prove the ‘whole’ of science would be…

…Totally human. :smiley:

T.R.,

“We are finite both physically and mentally, so we could be viewed as a big mass of information fluctuating through time - if ‘seen’ through a strange enough lens…”

That lens is the one crafted by the lensmaker Spinoza.

Dunamis

It’s getting hot :sunglasses: over here… Does he make sunglasses…?

T.R.,

No, the opposite. Unbelievably clear lenses that focus every beam. Not something you would want to wear in the Sun.

Dunamis

Sometimes the price of complete illumination is complete anihillation.

The expert, with years of training, experience, the latest tools and ample funding can observe many wonders. Yet for the average individual anything “scientific” is taken on faith. We don’t do the observations ourselves. Nor are we even closely acquainted with the person who made the observations. We lack the tools, training and the resources to duplicate experiments. Each field of study pushes its focus further and further apart so that an expert in biology would have limited knowledge of physics and vice versa. Even a scientist could not personally observe all of science.

So what is the difference between knowledge and belief. I think it comes down to this, it is a matter of confidence. We don’t use the world belief in everyday conversation because it indicates a lack of confidence.

“Where is you child right now?”

“I believe that it he is at school.”

A lack of confidence tends to provoke anxiety, both in yourself and in others.

“What do you mean you BELIEVE? Aren’t you SURE? Don’t you KNOW?”

Sureness and confidence are no more than emotions. Yet they have influence. Confidence and sureness helps to convince us. Confidence in and of itself lacks any intrinsic connection to the truth. Anything presented with confidence does not have any more truth than something presented without confidence. Yet people often assume that anything presented with confidence is somehow truer.

Effective assumptions are truer than ineffective assumptions. Effectiveness remains dependant on goals. What is effective to achieve one goal is ineffective to achieve another.

Every decision is a gamble. The risk can be high or low but the outcome is unknown and unknowable. With assumptions we can try predict the future. Make the wrong assumption and your prediction with be that much less effective. Predicating the future is not just the business of prophets and psychics, it is something that we all do every day of our lives.

Believing in information that comes from the scientific method is a low risk gamble. It is bases on assumptions that have often led to the results we want. It is an assumption with balls. Because it has the balls, you don’t have to, hence low risk. But there is no such thing as zero risk. There are too many variables.

The scientific method is all based on one big assumption, given the same circumstances the world will behave in the same way in the future as it did in the past. It may not be true but it can be effective in helping us to achieve goals.

The famous bread may not nourish us today, but the assumption that it will is comparatively low risk.

New information can make old assumptions ineffective in predicting the future.

We may develop tools and methods to explore the universe, but we all still operate in the executive dimension. To live one may not just think, but also act. This is correct for as long as you have the goal of continuing to operate in the executive dimension.

We are embodied minds, and this is the truth.

Assumptions only get questioned when they FAIL to get results. Even then one failure is not enough to upset our assumptions unless it is of sufficient magnitude.

Our assumptions are indefensible. Yet they are also indispensable for taking action. One cannot do anything without making some assumptions.

:blush: [Blush with pride]

Gosh…! Quoted by an ilp legend - I must be getting better at this philosophy malarky… :smiley:

Though I’m interested Mr. X., in your motives for starting this thread - since you seem to be both it’s Alpha and Omega - Why ask a question if you know the answer…? Self aggrandizement …? :wink:

I have no idea what I am going to write until I write it. I had no idea where this would go when I posed the question.

Every public action has a touch of theater and performance in it. Everything has a bit of vanity.

(Also “ILP Legend” is just an automatic text field displayed on the board in reaction to my post count.)

I do have a habit of being the last one to write in a thread I start. This could be because I have given a final answer, or it could be that I am the only one still interested when everyone else has moved on to other subjects. It could be that my posts are often inert and cause no further reactions. Who know?

pffttt… whatever becoming an ILP legend is my goal in life… and uhmm :unamused: last word :stuck_out_tongue:

Mine too. :smiley: And Ahem… [size=75]Last last word[/size]

Why aren’t both beliefs? As long as you accept both propositions as true, they are both beliefs. One happens to be true, the other false, but why should that make any difference?