Intellect and Pacifism

what are the “power and magnanimity and other great qualities” that make these ‘greater’ individuals different from the “average person”, and most importantly, why would such greater individuals every choose to be passive?

pacifism would need to either secure that greater individual with benefit to himself, or it would need to be a logical and unavoidable consequence of his ‘higher nature’ or greater knowledge… personally, i dont see pacifist beliefs arising under either of these two conditions.

to me, the nature of a ‘greater individual’ is the opposite of pacifism; of course, these individuals will not act recklessly or foolishly with their power, they will not act violently unless it is rational and benefitial to themselves. however, placing their use of retalitory and initiatory force under more rational or consistent guidelines is not the same thing as adopting an entire philosophy of pacifism which forbids or preemps all acts of force or violence in all circumstances…

By what I understand from your statement I’m directly opposed to your view, exciting. I may be misunderstanding you, so I will expatiate on my view and if our views are indeed opposing, we should take this on.

Claim:
Pacifism is a greater trait than it’s opposite.
Statement:
The “perfect man” is a pacifist.
Argument:
Non-pacifism/aggression is the sign of vulnerability and weakness. If self consciousness is a variable, non-pacifism translates to fear… perhaps to be continued

Does it seem we are arguing the same aspect of pacifism or are we on different pages?

I have modified your question.
Pacifism by choice is invulnerability.
Depending on your reply to my previous response, we may go into details on this.

Hmmm… I’ll ruminate on this subject.

Violent people have smaller brains.

The bigger the orbito-frontal

cortex, the thalamus and the inferior

temporal gyrus the less one is

subject to emotions.
Re:

upi.com/Health_News/2009/0

5/25/Meditation-may-lead-to-a-bigger-

brain/UPI-54561243288701/

i realize there are many different ways of understanding pacifism as a philosophy or system of thought, so i will clarify what i mean when i use the word.

when i refer to pacifism i am speaking of the ‘extreme’ or absolute form, where ALL violence or physical force is FORBIDDEN under any and every circumstance. this includes but is of course not limited to self-defense of onesself and others. from IEP:

[size=95]The best place to begin an analysis of pacifism is with the absolutist argument that all forms of violence, war, and/or killing are unconditionally wrong. The proposed ideal is that social intercourse should be completely non-violent and peaceful, and conflicts which may arise should be dealt with through arbitration and compromise rather than with recourse to violent means. Absolutist pacifism asserts that peace is intrinsically a good to be upheld either as a duty or on the consequentialist grounds that it is more conducive to human welfare than any use of violence or force. [/size]

that is what i mean when i speak of pacifism. the reason i take this and not a weaker form of the idea is because i consider lesser and weaker versions of pacifism merely extensions of social contract theory or personal ethics of versions of altruistic behavior. socially, we MUST place at least SOME value on the “other” in general, and regardless of where or how we define this value, that will determine the extent that we act altrustically or benvolently, i.e. with regard for that other person’s wellbeing and life. i do not consider such pragmatic or ethical social ideas pacifist; i consider them merely social necessities, conditioned modes of thought and behavior which are prerequisite to all social functioning at all. that we accept life in society means that we condone this sort of socialization of our instincts in these fashions, that we respect and contract to not harm others under certain situations. this is normal, and desirable, and i do not consider it “pacifist”.

pacifism to me is the maximization of the no-harm principle, beyond social usefulness or necessity. it is in the difference between the pragmatic necessities of social contracts and absolutist pacifism that i ground my distinction here. absolutist pacifism, as described in the IEP quote from above, is far more than just a socially evolved usefulness or a contractual agreement-- the claim that you cannot even defend yourself, that you cannot use physical violence AT ALL, that you cannot cause harm to another’s person, mind or body AT ALL, under ANY circumstances, is in fact very anti-pragmatic in terms of social functioning. a wide-spread acceptance of such a belief would undoubtedly lead to that society being quickly dominated by a vicious tyrany who oppresses and murders his own people at will, as there would be no resistance to such activities. in that sense, pacifism as i define it here is very much opposed to social usefulness theories, and that is why i separate it out.

if you are arguing a different, weaker form of pacifism, then of course my claim that pacifism is the opposite of the virtues of a “higher individual” would be rejected. however, as ive stated, if you are indeed operating under such a weaker or conditional definition of pacifism, then i argue that you are not in fact arguing FOR pacifism at all, and are merely arguing for the necessary supermacy of social functioning and pragmatic usefulness of altruism, general benevolence and submission to the rule of law and contracts. however, i will leave it up to you to define your usage of the term ‘pacifism’ herein, so we may begin to get to the bottom of the differences in our viewpoints, and therefore begin to analyze these differences.

on a similar note, please, along with explaining your take on the definition of pacifism that i have offered, explain what the “opposite” of pacifism is, as you stated above… we take pacifism as either A) my extreme absolute definition of unconditional practice of the no-harm principle, or B) the set of all lesser, weaker and conditional definitions of the practice of the no-harm principle-- under A and B, please explain what the “opposite” of these is that you refer to, because i am having a difficult time seeing what the opposite of either A or B would entail, especially in practice. thanks.

i will need you to explain what you mean by “invulnerability” here in reference to a choice of pacifism.

Let’s try it from a different angle then. I don’t necessarily kill every mosquito that bites me. That doesn’t make the mosquito stronger. I don’t necessarily step on every ant. The ant isn’t superior because of my unwillingness to commit an aggressive act.

Economics alone however omits the importance of the individual’s preconfigured tendencies. It’s not necessarily a causative relation that goes economics->ability, but it’s circular. If the person has little ability, he will also possess little of value. Saying it’s “just economics” foregoes why that person is well off in the first place. Again, I think this rap culture gives the best example. These people are well off but they’re culturally poor. They and their families might continue to live well, but they shun learning and glorify animalistic territorialism.
Essentially what this comes down to is:
Learning generally enhances culture and one’s view of societies.
Money generally doesn’t.
And I’m not addressing pacifism as an absolute ideology to avoid violence even in self defence, just a tendency of the learned to not commit aggressive acts, some of which I’ve mentioned already. It’s just a differing viewpoint of the world.

if you fail to kill a mosquito, thats not an instinctive issue. its likely because you either didnt notice it in time to kill it, or you decided it wasnt worth the effort to kill it and saw no benefit in such an act. likewise with the ant.

(EDIT: i would add that such insignificant or minor/arbitrary acts are issues of practicality or utility, and not of instinct or intellect, and therefore are not really relevant to what we’re discussing here.)

pacifism is a mechanism of compensation; im not saying it is ALWAYS this, but that it is a primary motivation and is likely present in one degree or another within most pacifists. if you are inherently weak and unable to physically achieve or satisfy your inner instincts and drives (such as the drive to revenge, physical power or prowess over others, self-defense, sexual desire) then this causes distress. you have these instincts but are unable to satisfy them, either because of a personal inability to do so (weakness) or because of excessive oversocialization (instinct repression or redirection). in this case, the cognitive dissonance between your internal drives/causes and the external world of effects causes stress, which must be mitigated somehow. clearly, you cannot change your instincts yourself (perhaps this is possible, but is not the route taken typically, as undoubtedly it would be very hard and time/energy consuming). also, you cannot change your inherent weakness (inability to satisfy your instincts) itself, as the possibility of becoming un-weak would require an un-weak constitution to begin with (for the most part; i acknowledge that there are exceptions)…

therefore, you are left to adopt a rigid and unyielding system of thought, a universal or paradigmatic belief which allows you to FEEL BETTER about this stress itself-- it doesnt solve the problem of the gap, but it lessens the dissonance because it JUSTIFIES the dissonance itself. basically, pacifism tells you that your instincts are wrong, and because of this, you therefore CHOOSE not to follow them; it creates the illusion of choice. if your instincts tell you to to A, but you cannot do A, you have stress; but if your instincts tell you A and you believe “i am not doing A because i CHOOSE not to do A”, then the your subsequent later failure to do A is not stressful, because it appears that this failure to do A entails from your choice. of course, the insertion of a belief to the effect of a rationalization doesnt change the consequence (i.e. it would have been the case that you failed to do A regardless of whether or not you make use of a pacifist belief insertion), but it makes you feel better– because in the end, when you are still unable to do A, you will make yourself believe that this inability was derived from your personal choice, your belief in pacifism, and NOT from an inherent weakness or inability on your part. this undermines the instinct itself, makes it useless causally, and thus mitigates the stress of the dissonance resultant of the difference between your internal state and the external world.

i agree that true pacifism obtains in degrees, and that these degrees correspond to the extent of the gap between internal and external, and therefore also to the stress resulting from this… pacifism is pragmatic, and it exists because it is useful and/or necessary to maintain emotional or cognitive homeostasis in the face of constant stress. the automatic psychological mechanisms of stress-mitigation are some of the most basic and necessary functions of the brain, and often we fail to realise to what extent these functions predetermine or guide our thoughts, beliefs and assumptions.

well, if your definition of pacifism is “a tendency of the learned to not commit aggressive acts” then that is just socialization, a force of instinct-suppression and redirection for the sake of social cohesion. pacifism as an active ideology or belief-system is different than this general repression/redirection of instinctive energy (note: the difference tends to materialize along, but is not expressly defined by, consciousness/unconsciousness lines of distinction).

but of course youre right, SES factors are in a circular or reciprocal relation with lifestyle choices. one causes the other, which causes the other, back and forth. it gets even trickier when you factor in genetics and diet. of course, i do not mean to diminush the importance of these other factors, such as cultural learning as you call it (i.e. socialization), however if we’re talking about the general tendency or propensity to commit violent acts, thinking of it as a scale, then the more we slide from “less” to “more” the more correlation there is to lower SES levels. the causalty is not definite, and as you say can be circular or self-reinforcing, but the correlation is there, and i maintain that the correlation to SES is the predominant correlation there is to this propensity to commit violent acts, mainly because SES itself is correlated to all these other variables directly, such as cultural learning, genetics, diet, intelligence (natural as well as educational), etc.

After all these years, I still confuse the two.

Passivism: merriam-webster.com/dictionary/passivism
Pacifism: merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pacifism

With the correct definition in mind, I agree with you. And if you were to substitute passivism with pacifism, you might see the point I was trying to make.

i would still have to say that i dont necessarily agree with your assessment even if we substitute passivism for pacifism, although this is a very good distinction to make. clearly i was referring to pacifism throughout, but passivism applies as well here, just in a different way.

passivism is socially useful and necessary, pacifism is not (at present), or at least not nearly as much or as universally. so passivism is justified extrinsically to the extent that social cohesiveness is of value, which it certainly is to most of us. however, passivism is not inherent or intrinsically justified in itself-- its ONLY justification comes from its pragmatic usefulness to furthering other values, such as the benefits gained from social living. likewise, pacifism has no inherent or intrinsic value… while pacifism represents a psychological mechanism of compensation and rationalization, passivism could also manifest from these causes, in lesser degrees, but typically derives not from pathological or unconscious personal utility, but from social utility, which may or may not be called pathological depending on ones personal perspectives on society itself (it would, however, be called almost universally unconscious, although not COMPLETELY universally).

neither theory is justified for its own sake, i.e. for its own values or ends. of course by this standard not much is when it comes to ideology or philosophy, and its a common staple of modern knowledge that nearly every conceivable position, belief, value, derive from pragmatic bases. nothing wrong with this, per se, but its still useful to examine this process and bring it to light in order to better understand it.

passivism and pacifism are beliefs/ideologies/paradigms/attitudes which superceed instinct, and which can superceed even upon social utility when taken to extremes or absolutes. that they may or may not derive from pathological mechanisms within the mind/cognition/emotion is relevant, but also not getting at the heart of the issue: both philosophies are anti-nature and anti-life to the extent that they preempt the sort of aggressive, struggling, conflicting relationships between individuals and groups which is the basis of all life and evolution. while they are socially and psychologically useful, this usefulness itself speaks to a more fundamental weakness or conditionality of man himself-- that he cannot bear to live in a world where conflict and threat of aggression is present, where some dominate others and this is condoned and encouraged. i would agree that i prefer not to live in this world either, but that is only because i have been so conditioned and genetically-weakened along with the progressive dilluting of the gene pool that i certainly would have no chance to survive. who is to say that such social systems of inherent conflict or chaos or dominance are not preferrable to modern systems? it seems that we need to look objectively at the problem of comparing them, which is likely impossible to do completely but nevertheless can be accomplished in degrees.

that is not the point of this post; i would only say that the growth, development, evolution and increasing fitness and strength of ALL LIFE is caused and sustained by conflict, aggression, death, struggle and suffering– but that these are of course not the ONLY means or methods of life. certainly love and passivism exist for a reason, to promote relations within groups and within families, for example. but that they exist for this secondary purpose is important, for underlying that is the basic conflict-oriented nature of reality and life. life cannot grow, evolve or survive in an environment that lacks threats; not for very long, anyways. in our case, we survive in this way because we have created environments that are so overspecialized that we separate from nature itself… we live in bubbles where there is (relatively or ideally) no harm, the least conflict and suffering and struggle; however, any life or species which overspecializes like this is setting itself up for extinction or at least severe levels of destruction: consider a bacterium which specializes to attach a certain individual cell only, and becomes VERY good at attacking that cell. now if that cell becomes extinct, so does the bacterium. likewise, if the DNA in man evolves to survive only in one particular (and artificial) niche, how will he manage if suddenly thrust our of this coccoon into other environments and hazards?

all that aside, the point is: passivism and pacifism are valuable for various reasons, psychologically and socially, individually and in terms of group functioning. however they are not inherently valuable outside of these paradigms, and even the existence of their usefulness within these systems itself tends to illuminate the artificial and constructed nature of human societies… how they are built in opposition to the fundamental maxim of life, which is conflict and aggression, dominance and war. sure, we are of course justified to seek out means of limiting these things in our lives, by the very fact that we are CAPABLE of doing so; yet we would also be wise to remember that either genetic weakness or overspecialization are dangerous games to play with nature, and its always the case that nature seems to get in the final word. if we observe that evolution and growth and progress require systems of competition and aggression, winners and losers in meritocracies judged by reality itself, then we would be wise to not forget this while constructing and evaluating our psychological and sociological premises and mechanisms, such as passivism and pacifism.

they play a useful role, but we should never let this relative usefulness convince us of their having any FUNDAMENTAL or UNIVERSAL or ETHICAL or OBJECTIVE or UNCONDITIONAL value, because such values are non-existent with regards to passivism or pacifism, and if they were to obtain would cause (and indeed are causing) tremendous harm to our life and existence itself, by preventing much of the growth and progress that is characteristic of and necessary for all life itself.

It’s the same issue because not attacking everyone is synonymous to attacking every creature that you meet. There simply is no reason, but you’re implying that failure to be the alpha male in all situations is a sign of weakness. The alpha male being someone who will continuously impose his will on others. My knowledge of intellectual circles throughout 2000+ years of history indicates that these people weren’t prone to acts of aggression. It’s an extremely elementary view of “power”. You’re essentially saying a dog is more powerful than a man. But man can use his intelligence to create weapons to dispose of the animal.
I agree that in many cases one will think “I didn’t want to anyway” when one can’t achieve something, but it would be a gross overgeneralization to say that it characterizes the passive/pacifist mentality. Ultimately, it just lies with the fact that the intellectual understands that social behavior is more rewarding in the long term than the aggressive short sighted impulsive acts of the mentally inept.

Well it’s a bit semantic here then. I didn’t mean pacifism as people refusing to defend their wife and kids during a mugging on ideological grounds. I just mean an aversion to aggressive acts. And intellectuals generally have the greatest aversion. Yes economics is always going to be major. But like I mentioned with the welfare situation, these people are provided some living standards for by the state. They’re culturally poor. And in this country the minimum wage is ~6pounds. Even on minimum wage, with normal working hours (~40 hours a week), it’s impossible not to live well if one makes intelligent choices with regards to family life (i.e. don’t have 10kids, don’t support 50 family members on one wage and say it’s not enough). So the economic situation is self imposed, due to a low cultural standard.

Why doesn’t this forum have a “reply to” option? It should be right there next to “quote.”

So, a disagreement does exist.
I’ll be back later.

Pacifism as I understand it is an ideological belief that violence, especially war, is undesirable and to be avoided when at all possible. Pacifism, except in extreme cases, does not say that people should not defend themselves. Also, true pacifism is an ideal. I doubt that we will we see the end of war and violence in our time; likely that will never happen. But an end to senseless violence, to cruelty, to wars of young men dying for old men’s prosperity is certainly worth working towards.

In relation to the original question, intellect is the strength of intellectuals, even when their bodies and weapons are strong. I do know a few college-educated intellectuals that routinely get in bar fights or support the wars, though. However, higher education tends to broaden horizons and instill empathy, which would make an educated person more likely to think before striking. As an intellectual from a relatively low (by 1st world country standards only) socioeconomic status, and with friends in far worse conditions, I don’t think intellectualism and resources must always be linked. They just frequently are.

If all you have to rely on is your fists, you will use your fists. If all you have to rely on is harsh, angry words, you will cuss and rage. If you have the words and ideas to make your point, you will use your mind. If you have money or contacts, you will rely on those. Physical violence is proof that all else has failed, or that the a person is very poor in spirit. The self-control to refrain from harming another displays more strength than relying on animal instincts.

As a final point, the USA has spent enough on the last war to have ended world hunger, at least for a good while. Or to actually have a decent education system. Maybe if humans spent less time fighting each other we could accomplish something.

Agreed

Agreed, though this does not take anything away from the concept. You are simply describing present reality.

This is an observation. I agree with it.

Disagree.
I must assume this is following up on your previous sentence, as such, I will say again, this is an observation, you are describing reality as it is perceived by you. It appears to me your idea of reality, in it’s concept form, is limited by your observations.

To observe pacifism is currently commonly harmful to the self is not to mean absolute pacifism is not intrinsically good. There are many perspectives. Alternatively, you may perceive people are as pacifistic as possible, suggesting pacifism is being impeded. Pacifism does exist, just not as much as passivism. They are both actually part of a more basic spectrum.

So let’s imaging pacifism in its absolute form, though patterns of nature must be applied. Imagine an absolutely pacifistic universe. Imagine an absolutely aggressive universe. Which do you think would be superior? Based on what would you judge superiority? And this is how it has to be imagined. If you disagree, there is a fundamental difference in our understanding of reality in concept form. Only one of us could be right.

So there is no point in going further until we figure this out. So my claim is in how you must imagine… perform this thought experiment.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
Both of us will be right and wrong to a degree, regardless.

AAAAaaaaaaahhhhhh, no way around it.

If you study , you study another’s thoughts and leanings, it will influence your own. So the more you study works from pacifists the more pacifistic you will become. Education systems especially the higher institutions promote texts that are pacifistic… Students studying works from violent people?, right then add booze and all control is lost. Educational institutions require peace and control. Curriculum will influence this. You don’t think the required works to study are just randomly picked do you? For every text on a subject that is chosen there are at least 2 to 3 rejected. Why the rejection?

Kris, I’m an engineering student. I can’t think of any textbooks that could teach Fourier series analysis, boundary layer separation, materials selection, or finite element analysis in an aggressive or pacifist way. They’re all inherently neutral. I could, however, do trajectory modelling or missile aerodynamics as my final year project. The same principles that guide a commercial plane can be used for military purposes. It’s all innately neutral, it just depends on how you use it. I can’t say I believe in conspiracies, and I don’t think there’s any emphasis on pacifism or the opposite in engineering. No other way companies like Lockheed Martin and BAE Systems can attract intelligent graduates. It’s not only restricted to engineering, it also encompasses finance. I don’t really respect any other courses (apart from medicine but that wouldn’t necessarily fit the argument), and I’m a bit drunk so I’ll leave it at that.

So in all of your schooling you only ever studied math, science, engineering? You never had to take any other courses such as history, social science, physchology etc…? If that is true man, did I go to the wrong schools. :smiley:

That’s what I responded to, with emphasis on “higher [education] institutions”.

But anyway, it would be a deviation of the argument. My professor does research on missile aerodynamics that will help kill people many many miles away, and he is anything but aggressive. The OP here is addressing passivism/pacifism on an individual level.

If he does missile research then he is not passive. he may not be a dominant aggressive but, he still is aggressive.

Ok Kris, I see where this is going so I’ll just cut it short: I am wrong and you are right.