Intellectual Crisis In Atheism?

“Does anyone ever notice that Christians use a bunch of figurative language? They’ll say things like “it’s all in the hands of God”, “the Lord has touched my heart”, “I have a personal relationship with Jesus” or “God is on your side”. Phrases such as these must have a meaning that the secular world could understand.”

Here we have an example of Mutcer, an apparent atheist/agnostic on this forum, pretending he  doesn't know what simple English phrases like 'on your side' or 'touched my heart' mean, so that he can score points in some ongoing battle between theists and atheists.  You used to see the same goofy shit from believers all the time- who knows that better than me, as a goofy believer myself?  As atheism comes into the mainstream, and gets it's marching orders from people like Dawkins and Hitchens, does it risk the creation of a new class of 'atheistic fundamentalist' that will say any old crazy thing to score a debate point?
 If so, does it force a re-characterization of the new atheism? As a 'movement', it paints itself as 'that thing that conscientious thinkers do'. What's the draw when it's just another ship of fools, i.e., pop?

You mean like a “Dawkins and Hitchens touched my heart” sort of goofy atheism?
:unamused:

Is this some petty roundabout way for you to insult someone you don’t like?

And besides it is not as cheap as you may think, when you consider that the consequence of his critique is that many theistic experiences are founded on language rather an actual experience out of the ordinary. His point ought to be addressed, and not just with calumny…

calumny
noun
°a falsification or misrepresentation intended to disparage or discredit another.
Accusations of abuse were pure extortive calumny in a malicious bid to make money.
°false charges brought about to tarnish another’s reputation or standing.

C’mon! Ucissore needed no Webster for that little word.

Are you implying that religious experiences that aren’t to be treated with calumny are ones that say, “this was out of the ordinary, therefore it must be God”?

This is the exact problem I have with the religious (even if the above quote doesn’t include you). They thrive and exonerate themselves from anything further, with triumph, as soon as they can attribute something pleasurable to something greater then themselves.

They communicate, soley, their ability to be grateful to another, to be obedient, to serve. But this as their only ability! How horrible to have to associate with someone who constantly deflects any personal emotional depth away from themselves! Where is the connection?!

Oh yes, the original post.

By figurative speech, you mean associating the subject with a sensory sensation. Namely, to associate God, heaven, the beyond, the inconceivably divine, with the conceivable real!

Yes, this is the only way the religious person can understand or relate to the supposed “God”, “paradise”, “super-reality”, “the inconceivable”: THROUGH THE REAL AND CONCEIVABLE!!

I can be your Hitchens or Dawkins in merely pointing out that the religious contradict and abstract away from reality with everything religious that they say. But I am not God, I am human to their definition. Contradiction, abstraction, unreality: they all have no meaning to one who is convinced that divinity is the abstraction of the negative to needing to conform to these rules and more!

Dawkins and Hitchens and countless more atheists can meet conviction with conviction until they war. Might could certainly few out the numbers of each side, but to really kill God, you need to undermine the practices that preserve the rituals.

Until the day that the religious are unable to remember having ever been a puppet to God, they will carry on with their semi-formed approaches to attempts of understanding things with inherent and pathetic servitude.

Hello Silhouette:

— Are you implying that religious experiences that aren’t to be treated with calumny are ones that say, “this was out of the ordinary, therefore it must be God”?
O- No, no, no. I meant that we should not discount Mutcer’s critique so quickly because he has a valid point. Many times the metaphors are just “masks” behind which people hide the emptiness of an actual experience. Now that is what I think he meant, but I could be wrong.

Sure.

Like, ‘it’s in god’s hands now’ means (the feeling of) ‘relief’. The mask is that it’s god’s relief for you.
‘The Lord has touched my heart’: my heart beats and tenses in unrestrainable gratitude. It’s god that caused this.
‘God is on my side’: you better be scared for I can fool myself into acting with the intensity of one who has many behind him. And rightly so, no one will fight more ferociously that one who fights as though there were an army behind him - even if the army is just a mask.

The contradiction, as I pointed out, is in the equation between the ‘beyond-divine-suprareality-heavenly-God’ with the ‘real-sensory-actual-human-humanunderstanding’. As if - even if there was a divinity - it could be understood within human understanding, by a human understanding. The best a human can do is equate the feeling with a “negative-of” or “tendency towards” more-than-human understanding: another human understanding.

A religious person cannot and will not fail to do this and is always a pathetic fool.

I use logic here as a spot-the-difference with existence. I am consistent with it. I do not turn it on its head. I choose to not take experience and tell myself it is the exact opposite to what it is, in the name of blindly following anti-existence.

Nah, it’s the other way around. People who revolve their focus upon themselves are weak, pathetic and superficial.

Regardless of Mutcer falling in line with the given description or not, I can address the concept of whether or not mainstreaming atheism will open the doors for a different kind of atheist than previously seen.

In short, yes.

In length, the fundamental atheist is largely the only kind that has overtly existed, so that won’t be new.
What will be new, and I would like to stress that I am not talking about Mutcer one way or the other, is a flock of sheep that just say incredibly stupid things.

Just look at religion.
Hell…look at ANY large following of anything.

The more people you attract, the higher percentage of idiots you will have claiming to be part of that group.
This is simply a numbers game; nothing more.

You already see that around here from time to time as it is; an atheist getting hounded by other atheists for making really crappy arguments and making atheism look stupid. Typically, terms like, “wannabe”, and “fake” are thrown around.

In a way…it will be somewhat entertaining if atheism goes solidly mainstream, because then atheism would have to suffer the humiliation of some grand idiots in the spotlight saying and doing crap in the name of atheism that are completely counter of everything that core educated and well thought out atheists hold.

But yes…the more it becomes mainstream, the more dumb comments will be made in it’s name…just like Religion has been doing for oh so long.


And by the way…Uccisore is speaking from not just an original post, but several posts on the same subject matter where Mutcer continues to suggest that he doesn’t know what a description offered means, even if the offered descriptions are very technical and elaborate; leaving little room for poetic licensing.

I must say that in many cases, actions like that do strike one as smelling off.
I mean…you either assume the person is a bleeding moron in these kinds of cases, or you assume they are trying a strategy of refusing to accept any description given.

I don’t like assuming people, in specific, are morons.

I’ve seen a few stupid people who happened to be atheists. They were simply born atheist and never had reason to think about it or change their minds. The difference is that they weren’t stupid BECAUSE they were atheist. Intelligent theists, on the other hand, say silly things all the time, because of their religion. I know of engineers that will go through thermodynamics with you in one breath and say that god could simply suspend all its laws at his will in the other, because some book that was published centuries ago (along with many others who just happened not to be as popular) says so.

Anti theism, to distinguish it from atheism, is not an agenda, it’s a counter agenda. And ‘atheist fundamentalism’ is non existent since there’s no dogmatic set of beliefs. Anti theism is not a movement, but a counter movement to those who consider ‘intelligent design’ a valid theory or those who believe that muslims are the ‘rightful heirs of global civilization’. Those who see the rapid growth of islam, mormonism and so on as cause for concern. And any speculation as to anti theism’s strength is just misguided. To think that scientific and philosophical frameworks could ever surpass the popularity of an omniscient omnipotent being in an invisible world is just silly.

Um…who said that was ever the case?

Thinking like that is just plain stupid in itself.
You’re an atheist, therefore you are stupid?
You’re a theist, therefore you are stupid?

I don’t think anyone would venture that a choice regarding God is the determining factor of intelligence and in the same breath hope to be taken seriously and not as some kind of silly sounding ignorant bigot, and be someone open minded enough to bother conversing with on the subject matter.

Alright…I feel like that was unmerited, but sure.
No one was saying anything about atheism or antitheism not having a growing population…I think the opposite was more being addressed, and that as it grows, some are saying, “Hey…are these movements going to start attracting more silly people as they grow?”

The inevitable truth to that is…well…if it involves masses of people, then yes.

By the way, they are movements, regardless if it’s counter to something else or not.
I mean…unless you were the first man to ever make any movement of any kind, every movement is technically counter…that’s kind of how man works; like a racket ball in a court.

There’s moronic and then there’s moronic. If Mutcer really didn’t know what ‘on my side’ meant except as a reference to positioning in three dimensional space, then either he’s not a native English speaker, or he’d be too moronic to operate a computer and get here in the first place. So, I’m left with assuming that knows full well what the phrases mean, and made his argument to be duplicitous. OR…

he’s a part of an atheistic subculture that thinks they are obligated to PRETEND they don’t know what expressions like that mean, because things like metaphor and figurative speech violates their code of strict reason. “A HEART IS FOR PUMPING BLOOD AND DOES NOT HAVE THE VOLUME TO CONTAIN A DEAD JEWISH RELIGIOUS LEADER. DOES NOT COMPUTE!'”. I don’t mean to make fun, but I really do think that’s a trend coming up the pipe in atheistic society- this wouldn’t be the 10th time I’ve run into it.

Anyways, I agree with you, The Stumps, atheism is no different than any other religion or philosophy in this respect- as it gets more popular, stuff like this is bound to happen. My concern is, that insofar as atheism is marketed, it is largely marketed AS that small group of highly intellectual people who strive to not fall into the same traps as all those other groups! 500 years ago, it was the same way with Christianity. You could argue that the Protestant reformation came about, in part, because of a hyper-intellectual segment of the population that was turning their nose up at the liturgical church ‘acting like dirty pagans’.

Also, pop atheism (Dawkins and so on) make their bones by ragging on non-intellectual Christians. ‘Look at this snake handler. Look at this confused housewife. Snerk’. As atheism grows to develop a fundamentalist-dumb wing like Christianity has had for a few centuries, everything about it is going to have to change.

In short, I think a lot of the reason to be an atheist melts away once it comes into the mainstream, and the semi-educated element gets mouthy. I think this problem affects atheism MORE than competing views, because at least they offer salvation, the chance to become a cow in a future life, or 77 virgins.

He was saying that people manage to be stupid all by themselves, with or without religion. Just as the other half manage to be intelligent, each defined relative to the other of course.

Movements tend to start with the few who are intelligently or accidentally creative in a reactionary way. The movement is already over as soon as envying people come along who seek, unknowingly, to merely immitate and belong. Their new material will become more and more refined towards the unimaginative formulaic because they merely wanted to be as creative as the original starters rather than be creative by themselves. At this point, the idea becomes institution and the initiators get bored and look for a new challenge, since imitation is the worst form of flattery.

I see religion as old and tired: beyond institution and into the offensive. Yes, it did have interesting reasons in its birth, but only til these herd sheep came along and stayed for a couple of thousand years.

Very interesting that you should say that.

You define weak, pathetic and superficial as the inability to accept God, yes?

The motivational attractive emotions at work that bring you to accept God are simply different to the ones repelling you from accepting servitude. How to describe these emotions?

Towards God: you have the strength to deny your own desires/pleasures unquestioningly in the name of something supposedly stronger. Commonly known as ‘willpower’ and performed in order to achieve a more preferred outcome to anything achievable by the self. Certainly this is a valid emotion towards ‘intelligent servitude’ that is made possible by respect towards your new cause and master.

Away from God: you have the strength to stick with your own desires and pleasures in the face of all the institutions and threats around you, because you have confidence in your self and you feel little or no connection to or need for the cause or the master. You achieve most brilliance when unfettered by any servitude except towards your own driving self: the only form of mastery. You recognise that all the affirmative driving forces that lead you to move and create have so much power to achieve something amazing and they are their own reward.

Which one you choose shows which strength you admire most.

Consider what this says about yourself: any denial of your own desires and pleasures is by definition a restraint of the affirmative driving emotions caused by the negatively driving emotions. Is this not the exact way to weaken and restrict oneself? If you turn away from what is affirmative in you, do you not reveal a shame in your self that you turn away from?

A religious person shows they cannot stand the sight of their real self or endure their suffering, so they must dress themselves up in spirituality - the only grounds on which they feel sufficient and able to compete - to join a group that reveres the supposed next life where you will no longer be unsightly.

Admiration of people has always been of the most able. The olympics, sports, the richest, the strongest, the cleverest - all these are what draw people to amazement, not the ‘most spiritual’ lol. Enjoyment of slapstick comedy is above all, a subliminal venting of shames in yourself which are exaggerated and displaced into someone else’s plight than your own.

This is why the atheist is admirable and the religious person is someone to pity. Only amongst the fellow pitiful can the pitiful seem refreshing. Only the weak want equality and pity. The strong want to excel in reality!

What’s all this about atheism now?

I mean… how does any of this reflect one way or another on athiesm? or even theism?

Stupid people say stupid things… Some people will say just about anything to avoid admiting they were wrong… That they happen to believe this or that is utterly irrelevant.

But yes, as atheism becomes more widespread it’ll likely count more idiots among it’s members… Given that a certain percentage of people are idiots either way, how could that be any different?

At least atheism still appeals to the majority of intellectuals… right? :wink:

I’m disinclined to form a view of what will happen with modern atheism as it grows by the contribution of one or two posters on a web forum. Just as I didn’t form my opinion of god belief that way.

Atheism can manifest either as a passive lack of interest in god belief or it can be an active and intellectual pursuit. As far as the former, I’m sure there are some people who don’t believe in a god that are too stupid or without adequate self-reflection to have reasoned that through very well. But that type doesn’t care to make a big deal of it. It’s not that interesting to them to discuss it and they don’t much care what religious people want to think or do. Most atheists I’ve seen or read who are more actively involved in terms of a ‘movement’ aren’t focusing on pushing a ‘belief in atheism’, but instead on pushing for the greater use of reason, in terms of our public debates (which we surely need these days!) and concerning the need to increase the teaching of critical thinking skills in schools and get rid of the nonsense like creationism or other non-scientific BS in education once and for all. Other atheists may be more inclined to focus their efforts on the establishment clause or free speech stuff, like getting rid of references to any gods or religious doctrine in public-owned spaces, on money, in the pledge of allegiance, etc. But some of those efforts aren’t specific to atheism, because religious folk could support them on the basis of principle, too.

… the way I see it, it reverts to the old saw: It ain’t no songfest if just the best birds sing and not the rest.

A critical part of education, on all fronts, is letting the words fly. The whole figurative language thing is, for instance, quite interesting to me. A guiding theory in my field of work (teaching kids with autism) is to keep one’s language as literal as possible, given that many persons with autism have severe language processing issues. But guess what, without making the educational environment into a clinically antiseptic linguistic parody, its impossible to do. And even if one were to, one would then be (in my opinion) reinforcing a false reality. Rather, there are times and places when focus on literal content is important, and we are left with the fact that the Word is ultimately untranslatable. Rather, we go on feelings and impressions. Mutcer’s current state of feelings and impressions in regards to atheological debate may well be in need of some introspective attention, but where would ILP be with out he and his kind… Bring it on, I say!! But, then again, I’m something of an ass myself. :-$

That’s why I spent so much of my time through most of my life going back to the basics and examining exactly what Religions was.
And to do that, I had to look at it’s effects.
After a while, I realized that the cause that is Religion, what we think it is as theists, is not what Religion is.
The same is also true for non-theists; what they thought Religion is…most often isn’t what Religion is.
This is because people are looking at an incomplete list of effects and determining what the cause that is Religion is based on that incomplete list of effects.

It’s FAR too long of a discussion for me to go into in depth as it’s actually my personal philosophy and covers a very wide range of subject matter regarding existentialism and Religion, but that’s the needle at the top of the pile, and more to the point…I mention this because I understand what you are saying about Religion being old and tired; heavily deviated from it’s original point.
That understanding is what shaped my Religious philosophy.