Intelligence = Depression?

DesolateThief,

Yeah, I did address this in “Alcoholism”, but it’s still a very good question.

To many of those who responded to this thread, including but not limited to

SomeoneIsAtTheDoor, Waft the Helpless Youth, and even ShaneyTiger and OniOmega,

There is a pervasive societal misunderstand of what depression is, and how in fact depression is correlated with intelligence. To say “intelligence allows you a greater understanding of the shit the world is in” is to entirely misappropriate blame. The harm this does is subtle, but pointed: depression isn’t, generally speaking, sadness oriented around a cause: rather, it is a huge host of negative emotion occurring literally on its own, which often then finds things to latch on to. When a person loses his job, he may become sad; however, a depressed person, once depressed (for reasons that may have a psychological trigger, or may be purely chemical) may latch onto things to feel bad about, but these occur as an after-effect. The end result is, depressed people are told to cheer up because the things about which they complain “aren’t so bad”. This misses the point entirely, since those things weren’t the cause of the anguish in the first place, even though the depressed person may even believe they are.

DesolateThief, you’re hardly alone - an astonishingly large percentage of people (and much more so for creative, intelligent people) have depression to varying degrees, ranging from just feeling sadder in the winter for no discernible reason, to being suicidal and having drug-resistant symptoms, which is a pretty tough combination.

The first thing I should tell you is, IGNORE ADVICE FROM ANYONE WHO COMES FROM PURELY PHILOSOPHICAL APPROACH. Philosophy is a great mental exercise. Free will? Who knows. Language creates concepts more than expressing them? Maybe. When it comes to matters of the mind, philosophers try to claim firm ground - but really, psychology, pharmacology, and especially neurobiology have discovered an incredible amount more in the few decades they’ve been around, than philosophy has in two millenia - literally.

The second thing I should tell you is, first, anxiety and depression often go hand in hand. It’s an unfortunate combination, but they’re just as correlated as intelligence and depression are. The good news is that there are lots of treatments, ranging from upping your vitamin b12 intake and getting more exercise, to medications that are very safe and work for a large number of people. (These medications, by the way, shouldn’t be actively sought out by people with mild symptoms - but for those who are having a tough time of it, there should be no hesitation in being willing to try them if other approaches have failed.)

The last thing is, you should really STOP using marijuana to alleviate anxiety. I can’t stress this enough. I’m not saying this because marijuana is arbitrarily “bad for your brain” - I’m saying it because while it makes you feel better short term, it SIGNIFICANTLY worsens symptoms over the long term, for depression, but especially for anxiety. The more you smoke pot to get rid of anxiety, the more frequently and the more intensely you’ll have anxiety in the future. If you are feeling anywhere close to the point where you’re willing to smoke to alleviate symptoms, you should be taking anti-depressant medication instead, which is very effective against anxiety.

I know a lot about… well, the neurobiology of the brain regarding depression and anxiety, as well as a variety of methods of treatment, and things to steer clear from. I know you were more interested in a intelligence ↔ depression link in general, but if you have any questions about anything regarding this, definitely PM me.

SirEbrum:

I think it would be difficult for me to overstate how poorly founded and detrimental this statement is. Your attitude is entirely common, but it’s blatantly reactionary, and quite literally dangerous.

First, there is no truth to your literal claim whatsoever. My stance on SSRIs is precisely what I stated in the post just above this one: those with mild symptoms of treatable mental illness won’t need them, and those with stronger symptoms should initially try non-pharmaceutical methods of treatment. However, if the symptoms are particularly severe, or if other treatments have been tried and are not sufficiently successful, there isn’t a reason in the world why someone shouldn’t try SSRIs.

Second, your implication is that SSRIs are to be avoided, to some degree. Certainly any attitude that “I’m not the way I want to be… give me a drug” is reprehensible, and to be avoided. However, there are two reasons WHY such an attitude should be avoided. A) it’s clearly bad to become dependent on a substance to achieve for you what you should be able to find yourself (e.g. happiness, relaxation, creativity). B) it’s clearly bad to become dependent on a substance that damages your health.

Regarding the first, this is only a concern in the misguided world of those who believe that depressed people need to “snap out of it” or “realize that the world isn’t such a bad place”. This is an ignorant and terrible point of view. Now, it certainly applies to the middle-aged housewife who is getting depressed because she stays home all day - that’s a no brainer. But for people who have jobs, have friends, and are still having problems with depression or anxiety, antidepressants no more provide for you what you should be able to get on your own than antibiotics do.

Regarding the second, this isn’t a concern in the least. The upside to SSRIs is that, if they are successful, they can significantly reduce or eliminate symptoms of depression. The downside is that for some people - not even close to most people - they can have unpleasant side effects, in which case the person trying them may simply stop. The long-term neurological effects are so vastly more mild than even a light use of alcohol, or smoking pot once a month, that that isn’t a practical concern.

In short, 1) I think it’s unfortunate that you so casually and egregiously misrepresented me based on - from what I can tell - no information that’s at all in that ballpark (although if I am wrong please quote me here), and 2) I think it’s unfortunate that you seem to have an attitude against antidepressant medication that continues to cause so much harm in society. Using them as an easy way out is one thing - using them to compensate for a natural chemical imbalance is another.

The reason I began studying this subject in the first place was that, years ago, a very close (and particularly brilliant) friend of mine (who has OCD, depression, and anxiety), was hospitalized for being suicidal. She had a great life, was going to a phenomenal university, and had a great host of friends - there was nothing for her to be depressed ABOUT at all. She had tried a variety of non-pharmaceutical therapies, and (like most people with more-than-mild-depression) they didn’t work at all well enough. Several of her friends had recommended anti-depressants, and she refused, saying she had heard horrible things about them, and she generally didn’t want to be “one of those people who took pills to solve their problems”. She and I both are very scientific minded people, who want data relevant to important decisions when data is available. So over the next few months I learned everything I could about depression and antidepressants, and found out - surprise - discounting possible side effects, they’re absolutely fine for you. Statistically, in addition to lessening depression and anxiety, they improve IQ, muscle tension, and even reflex speed. In the end, she started on Prozac, which helped enormously but she still had problems - now, for the past 4 years she’s been taking Prozac and Wellbutrin concurrently, and since day 1 of that has had NO side effects, and has been actually rather joyously happy, productive, and only has the normal sort of problems life throws at you. Medication quite literally saved her life. Not everyone with severe symptoms responds as well as she does - but the possibility that they might more than warrants the attempt.

So thanks to her, I’ve taken quite an interest in the field, and ended up getting another major in neurobiology after that little incident. An interesting side result is that I know a crapload about the brain, depression, non-pharmaceutical treatments for it, and pharmaceutical treatments for it. I don’t think medications should be handed out like MnMs - but the degree to which I think medications are safe for use is a degree I can defend vigorously. I hope that, on a subject where misinformation can have such a negative impact on the lives of those who don’t do their own research, you will be less cavalier in the future with your “recommendations”.

There is a cure for that! Get a job. Occupy yourself. Work out and get the blood moving to your muscles instead of to your brain. Youll be healthier, wealthier, and perhaps, a little wiser because of it all.

I posted above ^^^^, then i read your post. Exactly my thoughts!

Intelligence is for truth.

One must understand that ones intelligence is perfectly in act when it reaches truth. It is capital to see this! Formal truth is the end of ones intelligence, and once it has attained it, it can rest. In as much as it has not reached it, it is in tension, thus in motion. This is why one likes truth so much, because truth is restful, and since it is restful to rest, I like truth. And so you immediately see the danger don’t you? Well the danger is to try to embrace it, to try to possess truth. Well noooooo! You do not possess anything at all. You do not possess truth, truth possesses you because it qualifies your intelligence and makes it attain its end.

:sunglasses:

Truth lets you know what to blame and why.

i have a job thank you…I picked up surfing. And honestly i love it. I feel so much better. I took advice from you all and i thank you deeply. I find that i was feeling empty, i needed more out of life. Now i feel like i have something to look forward to. I cant wait to surf. To get better, learning so much stuff. And its a great workout. and i love water. AND ITS FUN!

I Recommend anyone with depression to try an Active hobbie.

Thanks ,
Desolate.

DT, I’m glad you are feeling better, but, forgive me, I am not one to compare wounds, yet I can’t help but see a bold line of distinction form between what appears a transient pattern of low-mood and what is a pervasive dictator and destroyer of life.

Active Hobbies are a MUST for general happiness/contentment.
Sports get you sweating out “the bad stuff” from your day.
We are physical beings and sports is SO important for a health mind.

I do Brazliian Jiu Jitsu. I practice with MMA fighters that train to fight in the octogon MMA cage fights up here in the Northwest.
I absolutely suck and get the living crap beat out of me… but this is my therapy and I am addicted…

It is very VERY Tyler Durden… (Fight Club)
A bit masochistic… I feel that I experience more of life through physical pain.
The typical physical pain (bumps and bruises) from MMA fights or Jiu Jitsu isn’t really that bad.

As far as skills, I’m somewhere between Bruce Lee and Kip from Napolean Dynomite! :laughing:
Below is a picture of me from the other night:

lol

The smarter you get, the more isolated you will feel in the world which consists of mostly “mediocre minds” who bow blindly to conventional prejudices and the "dogmas’ imposed upon them (by a particular institution or society). “thinking” is an art of itself and its “beuty” is only understood by an alete community. The deeper of a thinker you become, the more you realize you have to learn. You become the master, creater, or God of your own reality and thought. This fact alone makes you ‘invinsible’ for you surpassed the ideals of your time and world. In other words, you become “ABOVE” the god our society entertains. And although your society (or friends) may regard you as abnormal or you may feel people around you are irrational and stupid, it is important to remember why…YES you are abnormal - not the average joe or “mediocre mind”… perhaps you are the next einstein or columbus…

Are you into the book “The Secret”? Your post reminded me of it.
My wife’s best friend is studying Philosophy at USD.
She seemed impressed with the Secret. I can’t stand the shit.
It’s a long shot but I thought it would be amazing if you were a student or alumni at USD like she is.
If that’s your picture, you even look like her!

DesolateThief,

“The more intelligent you are,the more knowledgeable you become,the more you increase your sorrow.” Arthur Schopenhaur

It seems to me what religion offers is certainty,but at the same time this attempted certainty closes the door of wonder,and wonder is the true nature of spirituality.

What is that book about?

What is spiritualitly to you?

Here’s a pretty good short article about it