A blind force process of matter-energy can generate a human civilization. Now the question is if our logic has the capability of manipulating matter up to the point of creating some equivalently complex item through our human “intelligent design” process. What I am referring to is the evolution of technology-science up to the point of creating an equivalent of the human mind or even exceeding this, maybe through computers, manipulation of our brain’s neural circuits etc. If we cannot ever reach the complexity of creating a mind or creating a complete life form from scatch, then this means that our science-logic understanding of the world, our decoding of the universe through various natural/mathematical languages and the consequent manipulation of matter is limited and inferior to those of PURE NATURAL BLIND FORCES. Now this is an interesting result. This may mean that matter has pure blind forces that greatly exceed our logic, therefore can create universes that we can never begin to understand. Matter alone can evolve up to creating other experiences that cannot be understood through logic. So the following possibilities remain:
Matter exceeds man’s logic no matter what: this means that other universes greater than ours are possible and even probable only that we will never know or understand them. This means that beings with very complex experiences may exist in these universes we will never know.
Our logic can reach and even exceed matter. This means that we may be able to create the above impossible universes-experiences-beings. Our minds as is today cannot conceive anything of these, but they will come about through the evolution of science. We in essence become GOD.
both 1 and 2 above are true. We become GOD but there are still are other universes greater than ours since Matter may be able to exceed even our GOD like results. Matter exceeds man’s GOD like science, and we will never be able to understand these other beings with very complex experiences.
Thats silly. If I can’t create my parts, then I’m not as intelligent of my parts?? Seriously silly.
Your making the mistake of thinking that intelligence is intrinsic. Your making the mistake that most others make, Locke’s “mind first” view of the universe. Your disguising it a bit, but its still what your proposing.
If we were never able to fully produce a complete life form from scratch that wouldn’t prove anything about our knowledge, except that we couldn’t produce the life form. A single blind algorithm may do nothing of use, put billions, upon billions of blind algorithms together, and you wind up with intelligence. Just because we can’t create the complexity, doesn’t mean its not mindless complexity.
Intelligence can’t be inferior… intelligence is those pure blind forces. You can’t compare intelligence, to the complexity of blind algorithms, or the standard model, and relativity. Or well, I guess you can, but its pointless and doesn’t prove a thing.
Logic is a result of seriously complex arrangements of matter not a property of matter. Just as the earth is a result, not a property.
Anyways, its no secret that the very fundamental truth of matter eludes us to this day. Sure matter can create universes we don’t understand. We don’t even understand this one. But it seems even though you repeatedly say “pure blind forces” that you are implying matter has some quality greater then intelligence. Which is silly.
Anyways, I’m sure your going to respond that you’ve been saying its “PURE BLIND FORCE”… all I’m pointing out is that your imagination has gotten away with you, and you seem to be attempting to give that pure blind force intelligent properties.
Matter exceeds our understanding because it is made up of atoms. In turn, atoms are made of spaceships. Our universe is an atom-spaceship.
I guess I am confused by what you mean when you say, “Our logic can exceed matter”. Are you speaking of mastery over matter or some sort of sci-fi transcendence? Could you please clarify your stance?
Well I admit that what I am trying to say is vague and complicated, I am not even sure if it can be expressed well in any way. I am trying to compare the evolution of matter on our planet that has led to an intelligent civilization, with our own mind’s attempt to dominate and manipulate matter. Seen from the outside, our planet is a ball of matter that evolves due to complex internal processes and produces humans. Can we do something equivalent through our technology ? Can we produce computers as smart as us or gentically engineered beings that have properties that transcend ours ? If we can’t do it, even after millions of years of trying, that means that pure blind forces of matter exceeds our minds. That is quite astonishing. If we can create computers or beings that transcend ourselves (are smarter, or something like that …) then our logic/science is the absolute key to the universe. Even then maybe the pure blind forces of matter may still transcend us even when we become GOD.
You are really continuing to be this silly? Look I can’t change states and turn into a gas, liquid, or solid like water. Does that mean that water exceeds me? It definetly is a part of me, yet I can’t take on the lovely properties that it has. So I guess its superior!! Well not really because there is no reason to compare the two in the first place.
Just because I can’t ‘do’ what water can ‘do’, doesn’t mean that I can’t understand it fully though. We can’t create water. We can’t create the atoms that compose water, but it has no effect on our understanding. And the comparison is stupid anyways. Water is not an intentional agent, and neither is matter. The powers that it has are not superior to anything, they are just the properties that water has, and it would be silly to compare it to anything else, as being superior, or inferior. It just is what it is, and what it most definetly is not is an intentional agent.
rounder said…
“Thats silly. If I can’t create my parts, then I’m not as intelligent of my parts?? Seriously silly.”
Yet, it’s not so silly. How do you define intelligence? I’d say it’s pretty smart to breath without concentrating on it. Just because you take this for granted.
You might understand intelligent design better with this idea… We actually use 100% of our brain to percieve our soul. (that’s why animals don’t evolve to our smarts,… we have desires to rise above our bodies) And learned thoughts are more like our subconcious.
But then again,… science has got brain cells to culture on the ends of micro chips because of electronic impulses. Maybe they’ll synthasize human intelligence and you could buy a organic robot girl friend (but that’s a matter for philosophy). Yet,… does love come from the body or the soul. Maybe that’s true intelligence that can never be synthsized.
So proteins in a small bag can develop complex reactions and then a hierarchy of many complex reactions unitl it becomes a living cell. Now those would be simply properties of the set of molecules that emerge. Now we cannot put a set of proteins in a bag and let them evolve unitl it becomes a living cell. Now, I don’t know, but imagine that after many centuries of trying and refining all our technology and examining the simplest living cell and even after all that, we still can’t put a set of proteins in a certain way to make it evolve into a living cell. What would this mean ? That evolutioon is a process that exceeds our capacity to simulate it or in other words we just can’t reach the same scale of natural evolution. Now that I think is a very interesting result. It means that somehow we are limited in our ability to manipulate matter. It would result in a limit on science. Of course by then we may be able to create perfect computer based simulations of worlds and even live in them, but maybe other things will forever be taboo. Intelligence actually doesn’t really even exist I think, it is just another set of reactions, but since we are viewing them from within these reactions, it is a little bit like talking to oneselves. If you look at a city from above and see all the objects that are moving, and compare that to a weather system, there is nothing special about the city (it has more regularity, but that is an aesthetic evaluation). Turbulence being much more complex would seem more “intelligent”. But the concept of intelligence is very vague.
Not exactly. What I mean is we may not be able to reproduce the exact sequence of natural occurences that led to the living cell. I am not endorsing magic or religion. Maybe evolution occured in steps on hundreds of different planets, each planet evolving a small subset of proteins and reactions, and then they somehow all got together and started evoving a complete living cell. Not magic or mystery just physics.
I would add that other possibilities could be that we are the result of many sequential steps of evolution happening with different physical systems. For example a very complex self organized plasma in a star could influence and connect to metallic structures in another planet. Theses structures could then have influenced a set of carbon chemistry reactions that evolved life. It is like for an alien to try to understand a car or satellite he finds on another planet. If he doesn’t know that there is a missing link, the humans, there is no way he can explain how the car came to be.
Just Out of curiousity Nameta, what are you reading that lead you to this? I see Deleuze, Braudel, Stuart Kaufman, a whole shit load of Sys Theory, Complexity Theory and Such.
Not reading anything really. These science fiction subjects are just random thoughts I have acquired over the years. I have read some physics books, some book “God and the new physics” (Hawkins and other popular writers etc.). I watch X-files, I like UFO theories, random science fiction. I am THE UNKNOWN GOD.
The Christ was an alien from outer space. There is far more reason to believe this then any other idea since we have firsthand experience of technological-scientific evolution. Just look at the evolution of technology in the last 100 years, now imagine an alien race having evolved to our level some few million years ago and continued to advance technically. They would be truly god like compared to us, therefore all the biblical events could have been encounters with aliens. Who created the aliens ? maybe a universe with much simpler laws of physics that allow high speed natural evolution, or maybe a hierarchy of gods, or maybe all the universes are in a computer simulation or maybe in metaphysical minds or maybe we have gods in a vat etc. Some modern christian churches have designs similar to flying saucers.