Into the fire...

[Brad]

don’t mean that level of permanence, or even a level of permanence like an afterlife or reincarnation, but an underlying order to the way the universe works that is permanent. In other words, the universe makes enough sense that when you do something, it has effects that you can predict (or at least understand, and that last), likewise you can look at history and understand that current events are dependent on past actions. Without acknowledging that kind of permanence on some level, I don’t think self-aware beings can operate

Isn’t that what we’ve got?

That’s not quite what I meant; I meant that the universe would be so randomly organized that your influence wouldn’t last or change anything, nor would there be any way it could be remembered. Also, I’m not precisely saying that the only way we can have a point is to accept determinism, I’m just saying some kind of order has to be believed to be consistent.

To me, you’re saying the same thing twice. Are you suggesting people need a guarantee or more control or to be controlled more?

resistance is futile

The Borg as utopia?

[aspacia]

@Alun Aedicita

@Brad

But why permanence?

Ok, consider the contrary: Everything about your life will eventually fade away. I don’t just mean you won’t be around, I mean every semblance of order that you’ve experienced will change without method/pattern and either continue to rasp and swirl without direction for eternity or fade into absolute void with the passage of time. Everything you’ve ever known will be lost in every sense of the word.

Which just utterly sucks, and it might not even be true, so not only is it probably impossible for someone to live without even an idea of the possibility of something besides oblivion, it’s kinda pointless. I mean, what’s the point in thinking everything is pointless (and that ‘everything’ also includes thinking)?

So to come back to an affirmative answer, ultimate permanence is the root of ideas of purpose.

Hum, a new way may be a better way. I often think regarding the sci fi scenario when there is no want, but still allows for the renegades in society. There are also other scenarios where we have to pay for air.

LOL, many of you free souls will enjoy Heinlein. Suvivalist, to be sure, but advocated bisexuality and homosexuality to those who preferred thus. Lazarus Long is a hilariously, intelligent, wonderful sexual being.

Enjoy what we can, when we can without hurting others, we aren’t going to live forever. This is the life we have to deal with, we cannot forsee the future, nor reinvent the past.

Hum, a poster once claimed that conservatives want a return to the Middle-ages. What a crock. Like an conservative is going to give up AC or his or her beamer?

With regards,

aspacia

[Brad]

many of you free souls will enjoy Heinlein. Suvivalist, to be sure, but advocated bisexuality and homosexuality to those who preferred thus. Lazarus Long is a hilariously, intelligent, wonderful sexual being.

Many of us already have.

[Peter_Kropotkin]

aspacia: “Hum, a poster once claimed that conservatives want a return to the Middle-ages. What a crock. Like an conservative is going to give up AC or his or her beamer?”

K: if you actually thought about it, instead of a glib answer, you
would understand what I meant. What do conservatives want or
believe in? They believe in the past, in tradition, they
believe in a hierarchy,they believe in a society that goes
from god down. They believe the past was better then today,
many like Edmund Burke believe the beginning of the end
was the french revolution, they want a fix society I.E. little
movement from top or bottom the idea of a self made man is
against their ideal’s, they believe in autocracy instead of democracy,
they dislike the idea of technology being a leveler in society, they
dislike the idea of equality in society. All of these idea’s do
suggest they dislike the modern world. And yes, during the
80’s several conservatives admitted they they prefer the
middle ages to the modern world, it was actually a theme
during the 80’s. It is not always about the technology.

Kropotkin

[someoneisatthedoor]

@Obw

Yup…we’re fundamentally weak. We don’t like to feel the ‘cosmic loneliness’ as McGinn puts it.

I see it more as boredom - belief in the ‘something beyond’ is a solution to boredom…

[Alun_Aedicita]

@Brad

Isn’t that what we’ve got?

Technically, you can’t prove that we do, because you can’t prove anything; but yes, I believe it is. That was my point initially, I think the semantics just tripped you up (or I tripped up the semantics; either way). At any rate, religions all try to articulate what that underlying pattern is, and lots of people like to keep reminding themselves that there is one–for whatever reason (and that includes me, so I’m not insulting religious people either)–thus the popularity of religion.

@Brad

To me, you’re saying the same thing twice. Are you suggesting people need a guarantee or more control or to be controlled more?

Err…no. I was just preempting a possible objection. Although I suppose I do think some people like to be disciplined.

@aspacia

Hum, a poster once claimed that conservatives want a return to the Middle-ages. What a crock. Like an conservative is going to give up AC or his or her beamer?

Assuming you’re talking about this board, then wouldn’t that have been a philosophic return to the Middle Ages? The AC would be the philosophic equivalent of servants with large leaves for fans; the beamer a stallion. The argument seems quite valid (I’ve even met conservatives who’ve openly expressed their wish for a totally literal return to the Middle Ages ).

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@thirst4metal

Hello F(r)iends,

I have observed many of my religious friends abandon their religious beliefs only to become ensnared onto the trendy beliefs of mysticism. I see these Kabbalah loving motherfuckers preaching peace, love, unity, one-ness, the way, the truth, and the rest and I think: you were better off a sheeple of Christianity. I have observed many men become athiests only to watch them become Satanists and I pity them… Of course, I have enslaved myself to other gods. But why?

Why do we abandon the shackles of slavery only to run into the deceitful arms of another master?
Are we doomed to ever seek something to fill in our “spiritual need”?

-Thirst

[size=84]P.S. Sorry, got to run, can’t expand. Anyways… my new sig line will explain my failure.[/size]

Thirst, they are slaves.

First they chase after the desire and pleasure of heaven and God,
then they may chase after the desire and pleasure of the carnal,
or perhaps, the thrill of opposition and apostasy, as they fight their previous faith.

They always are running after their desires, or are fighting for thrills, and they are deluded.

It is, anarchy, within.
Once controlled by a leader outside of the body, the body has not built its own leader within. They forgot the meaning of life, and have primed themself for reactive service.

All those who have error, have a weakness.
Complex weakness, requires complex strength, to undo it.
No mandade – will work…

[sarax]

“Thou wouldst go into the world, and art going with empty hands, with some promise of freedom which men in their simplicity and their natural unruliness cannot even understand, which they fear and dread – for nothing has ever been more insupportable for a man and a human society than freedom.”
dostoevsky

ie. people flee from the arms of one spiritual guide to another because we cannot deal with the burden of free choice…

"They are sinful and rebellious, but in the end they too will become obedient. They will marvel at us and look on us as gods, because we are ready to endure the freedom which they have found so dreadful and to rule over them- so awful it will seem to them to be free. But we shall tell them that we are Thy servants and rule them in Thy name. We shall deceive them again, for we will not let Thee come to us again. That deception will be our suffering, for we shall be forced to lie. "

Human beings do not want the freedom christ has promised them because the cannot cope without strict directiona nd instruction, rules and regulations

(just in case you don’t know the story, in its simplest form, jesus christ comes back but he is killed by the grand inquisitor because he believes humaity cannot cope with the freedom jesus promises - kinda thing)

“So long as man remains free he strives for nothing so incessantly and so painfully as to find someone to worship. But man seeks to worship what is established beyond dispute, so that all men would agree at once to worship it. For these pitiful creatures are concerned not only to find what one or the other can worship, but to find community of worship is the chief misery of every man individually and of all humanity from the beginning of time”

this bit deals almost specifically with your question…
sara

[aspacia]

@Peter Kropotkin

aspacia: “Hum, a poster once claimed that conservatives want a return to the Middle-ages. What a crock. Like an conservative is going to give up AC or his or her beamer?”

K: if you actually thought about it, instead of a glib answer, you
would understand what I meant. What do conservatives want or
believe in? They believe in the past, in tradition, they
believe in a hierarchy,they believe in a society that goes
from god down. They believe the past was better then today,
many like Edmund Burke believe the beginning of the end
was the french revolution, they want a fix society I.E. little
movement from top or bottom the idea of a self made man is
against their ideal’s, they believe in autocracy instead of democracy,
they dislike the idea of technology being a leveler in society, they
dislike the idea of equality in society. All of these idea’s do
suggest they dislike the modern world. And yes, during the
80’s several conservatives admitted they they prefer the
middle ages to the modern world, it was actually a theme
during the 80’s. It is not always about the technology.

Kropotkin

Again, as usual you are making a hasty generalization. Some consvatives believe this, many others do not. There is a split in the conservtive base regarding many issues. You would know this if you bothered to read the conservative sites (e.g. Washington Times) and receive the GOP newsletters, which I do. I also read the New York Times and receive the Democrats newsletters, ditto the Independents.

At the moment, my more conservative significant other is visiting from California. He has always been Republican, until recently, with the Iraq War. He claims, and is in a better position to speak for conservatives than you:

“Most conservatives that I know do not want the government interferring in our everyday lives, regulating everything. I do not believe in patriarchy, all for technology, entrepreneurship, totally against autocracy… at the moment he is frowning, shaking his head stating, not the conservatives I know, with the exception of Rainus the anus. Maybe it is just the type of conservatives he has had to deal with?”

In other words, Peter, you are way off the mark. Also, there are huge splits with the Democrats regarding abortion, illegal immigration, the war. Remember, Zev Miller’s claims/complaints regarding Clinton and Kerry during the GOP convention?

With regards,

aspacia