Is 1 = 0.999... ? Really?

Magnus,

“How can you remove a thing from a group of things without …!!!”

Like I’ve always told you, you see infinity as an object, a thing. You see “bound infinities” as quantifiable and can be added and subtracted at will!

Your own phrasing here proves that’s how you see infinities (quantifiable) - even though I’ve known that for a long time about you!

To you, infinity is an object. It has a beginning and an end. This is literally psychosis on your part. You do not actually understand what REAL infinity is!!!

That’s not what the word “remove” normally means. The word “remove” does not mean one thing when it comes to finite sets and another when it comes to infinite sets.

You are not following the discussion. This is no longer about what the word “infinity” means but what the word “remove” means.

Of course. When you remove 0 from the natural numbers {0, 1, 2, 3, …} you get the positive integers {1, 2, 3, …}. You have removed one element and the latter set is a proper subset of the former.

The word remove is being used in its usual, everyday sense. We start with a set and we remove an element.

But the two sets are still in bijective correspondence via the association

0 ↔ 1
1 ↔ 2
2 ↔ 3
3 ↔ 4
etc.

This is beyond dispute.

This is characteristic of infinite sets. When you remove an element you make a proper subset, but you don’t necessarily change the cardinality.

@wtf:

You ignore the fact that to remove a thing from a group of things is to decrease the number of things in that group.

That’s according to the standard definition of the word “remove”. (Not the one you and Mad Man P are pushing forward.)

Thus, if you have an infinite set of elements such as ({0, 1, 2, 3, \dotso}) and you remove one element from it (e.g. (0)), you get an infinite set with a smaller number of elements.

That’s basic logic.

The fact that you can do this . . .

0 ↔ 1
1 ↔ 2
2 ↔ 3
3 ↔ 4
etc

. . . proves absolutely nothing and this is evident in the fact that you can also do this . . .

  • ↔ 1
    0 ↔ 2
  • ↔ 3
    1 ↔ 4
  • ↔ 5
    2 ↔ 6
  • ↔ 7
    etc

. . . making the resulting set LOOK BIGGER than the original set.

That’s not logic. That’s “Let’s choose the conclusion that we like and ignore logic”.

You’re equivocating the word number. Removing an element from an infinite set does not change the set’s cardinality; although it DOES make the reduced set a proper subset of the original one.

The criterion for having the same cardinality is the existence of a bijection. The fact that other maps may exist that are not bijections, is not relevant. If there’s at least one function between two sets that’s a bijection, we say the two sets have the same cardinality. That’s a definition, it can’t be argued with.

How so?

The word “cardinality” simply means “the number of elements in a set”. On the other hand, to remove an element from a set is to reduce the number of elements in that set (= its size or cardinality.)

That’s correct.

That’s not correct. The number of elements in a set cannot be at the same time equal to, greater than and less than the number of elements in another set. That’s a massive logical contradiction.

No, that’s simply not true. You’re making up your own words. If there exists at least one bijection between two sets we say they have the same cardinality. That’s a technical definition. You’re just making things up and arguing against your own false ideas.

Cardinality itself has a more technical definition. If you like we can use the old definition and say that the cardinality of a set is the equivalence class of all the sets in bijection with it. That definition’s been superseded by a more technical one which need not concern us here.

Only in your mind. Nobody is saying that the “number of elements in a set cannot be at the same time equal to, greater than and less than the number of elements in another set.” YOU are saying that but it’s not true and not supported by any evidence.

You’re just making stuff up and being obstinate.

If there exists a single bijection between two sets, we say those sets have the same cardinality. Just like if you ever robbed a bank, you’re a bank robber. It doesn’t matter that there were many days on which you did not rob a bank. If you ever robbed a bank even one time, you’re a bank robber by definition. Likewise if there exists a single bijection between two sets, we DEFINE the two sets as having the same cardinality.

Everything beyond that is in your imagination.

So I don’t waste more time here, would you please tell me if you are interested in learning, or only arguing against your own erroneous definitions and made up ideas?

You know Magnus,

This attempt of yours is actually funny to me…

What does “-“ stand for? Your attempt is obviously still in correspondence (or bijective as wtf is explaining). Does “-“ mean null?? That’s an mathematical entity as well!

It’s almost like you’re angry at us that you tried to perform a magic trick and people saw you palming a card - get over it!

You were caught! Big deal! Move on!

That’s not english…
In english, to remove a thing from a group of things, is to have that thing no longer be among that group of things.
Removing that thing may make the number of elements in the group of things grow, shrink, turn pink… it’s not implied by the WORD.
If Bob was once part of the set and Bob is no longer part of the set, then Bob has been removed from the set… that’s all that word means.

Removing a head from the set of heads on a hydra, may result in there being more heads on the hydra, but that specific head was removed, all the same.

You said the same thing to me but when I explained it, you ignored me.

Is the above premise true or false?

The infinite set of positive integers is countable so it can be mapped one to one with any
other infinite set of the same that is incomplete because they have the same cardinality

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinality

The word “cardinality” does not mean ONE thing when it comes to finite sets and ANOTHER when it comes to infinite sets. It represents the same thing in both cases: the number of elements in a set.

That’s not a definition of the word “cardinality”. At best, what you’re doing here is defining what the term “same cardinality” means. You’re merely stating that if there’s a bijection between two finite or infinite sets that it logically follows that the two sets have the same cardinality i.e. the same number of elements. I don’t argue against that. But that’s not a definition of the word “cardinality” and it’s certainly not in opposition to the definition that I put forward.

If (x) is greater than (y) then it logically follows that (x) is not equal to (y).

Similarly, if (x) is less than (y) then it logically follows that (x) is not equal to (y).

Thus, to say that (x) is at the same time 1) equal to (y), 2) greater than (y), and 3) less than (y) is to say that (x) is at the same time 1) equal to (y), 2) not equal to (y), and 3) not equal to (y). In other words, it is to say that (x) is both equal to and not equal to (y) which is a textbook example of logical contradiction.

Let’s take two infinite sets:
(A = {0, 1, 2, 3, \dotso}) and (B = {1, 2, 3, \dotso}).

The question we want to ask is:
Do they have the same cardinality i.e. do they have the same number of elements?

What you’re saying is, and what I agree with, is that if we can put the two sets in one-to-one correspondence that it logically follows that they are equal in size.

The problem is that we cannot logically derive the answer to this question. In other words, there is absolutely nothing so far (no stated premise) that let us logically derive the answer to the question “Can we put them in one-to-one correspodence?”. We cannot answer with “Yes” just as we cannot answer with “No”. The answer is indeterminate.

It’s akin to saying that (x) and (y) are two positive integers and asking whether their sum will also be a positive integer. The only answer we can give is “It may or may not be the case”. In other words, the answer is indeterminate.

But you are trying to tell us that just because we can DECLARE that they are equal in size that it’s a LOGICAL NECESSITY that they are equal in size.

And that’s non-sense.

You can DECLARE that they are equal in size. Like so:

0 ↔ 1
1 ↔ 2
2 ↔ 3
3 ↔ 4
etc

But you can also DECLARE that they are not equal in size. Like so:

0 ↔ -
1 ↔ 1
2 ↔ -
3 ↔ 2
4 ↔ -
etc

It’s an ARBITRARY DECISION and there’s absolutely NO SENSE in insisting that an arbitrary decision be treated as some kind of logical necessity.

Note that there is nothing wrong with arbitrary decisions so as long they don’t contradict prior statements.

But when people say that (B) is an infinite set produced by making a copy of (A) and removing (0) from it, this logically implies that the set (B) is smaller than set (A). In such a case, you are NOT free to declare them equal because that would be a logical contradiction.

But one always has the choice to avoid facing the fact that they contradicted themselves by redefining words. If you claim that (2 + 2 = 2) and someone comes along and proves you wrong, you can hide your shame by saying “Hehehe, what I meant by (2) is actually (0), it’s just a different language, you see, so I’m still right!” And if that new language of yours becomes the mainstream language at the time, you can also hide behind that by saying “(2) means (0), dude, everyone agrees with that! Stop making up your own definitions!” And to those who say that it’s either one or the other, you can say “People should stop saying that 2 + 2 = 2 is either true or false because we can always imagine a language in which it is false and a language in which it is true”. It’s a very useful thing to remember if you’re into avoiding the negative consequences of your choices.

Take “- ↔ 3” as an example. What that means is that number (3) is not paired with any element from the other set. “-” means “no element from the other set”.

“Why not?” lol

Infinite denotes endlessness, see: “What is the synonym of endless?
SYNONYMS. unlimited, limitless, infinite, inexhaustible, boundless, unbounded, untold, immeasurable, measureless, incalculable, inestimable”.

I’ll humor that definition for a moment!

That means it cannot be enumerated… if it cannot be enumerated it “scrunches” the list.

1,2,3,4,5,6,7… right?

So you’re saying:

1,-,3,-,5,-,7… right?

But (by your own definition) the dash is not enumerated, in fact, as you position yourself, it cannot be enumerated… but there you are, sure as shit, enumerating it!

What does the TRUE non-enumaratable set (In this example) look like?

1,3,5,7,9,11,13…

Still in correspondence to:

1,2,3,4,5,6,7…

Go figure!

You’re contradicting your own definition to make your argument

I beg to differ.

That’s correct.

But note that how many things there are in a group (i.e. the number of things in a group) is related to what’s inside the group. What’s inside the group determines how many things there are in the group.

By changing what’s inside the group, you can change the number of things in that group. When you say “I changed what’s inside the group” you are not necessarily saying that you changed the number of things inside that group. It depends on HOW you changed that group. Perhaps you merely changed what color are the things inside that group. In that case, you didn’t change the number of things in that group.

But by removing a thing from a group, you change what’s inside the group in a specific way that necessarily changes the number of things in that group; and in a very specific way, by decreasing the number of things in that group.

Consider the following example:

You are standing in front of two infinite queues. One is an infinite queue of boys and the other is an infinite queue of girls. Every boy is holding a hand of a girl standing right next to him.

Boy 1 ↔ Girl 1
Boy 2 ↔ Girl 2
Boy 3 ↔ Girl 3
etc

Every boy is holding exactly one girl’s hand and every girl is holding exactly one boy’s hand.

This means there is no boy who’s not holding a girl’s hand and no girl who’s not holding a boy’s hand.

This also means the two sets have exactly the same number of elements.

What happens when you remove Girl 1 from the queue? What do you get? You get this:

Boy 1 ↔ (nobody)
Boy 2 ↔ Girl 2
Boy 3 ↔ Girl 3
etc

The two sets are NO LONGER in one-to-one correspondence. Boy 1 is no longer holding a girl’s hand, and since all other girls in the queue are already taken, he has no choice but to be alone OR steal another boy’s girl and make him alone OR enter into some kind of polyandry. Thus, the number of girls is less than the number of boys.

When mathematicians DECLARE that the two resulting sets are equal in size (for that’s all they do, they declare, they do not logically derive) they are contradicting the earlier claim that EVERY girl is taken. If every girl is already taken, you cannot pair Boy 1 with another girl without producing one of the following consequences:

  1. the girl is paired with more than one boy (polyandry)

  2. the girl is paired with exactly one boy (Boy 1) but this is achieved by leaving the boy she was previously paired with without a girl (stealing another boy’s girl)

The moment you remove a head from the set of heads on a hydra is the moment that the hydra has FEWER heads than before. The fact that such an action can cause other heads to appear (thereby increasing the number of heads) is completely irrelevant.

The point is that when someone SAYS that they removed a head from the set of heads on a hydra, they are saying they DECREASED the number of heads. Of course, they can then add that this lead to hydra growing additional heads, eventually surpassing the number of heads it initially head, but that’s of no concern to us because it has nothing to do with the word “remove” and everything to do with the word “grow”.

That’s correct but it’s not the best definition out there.

What does the word “end” mean with respect to sets? What does it mean to say that a set is endless i.e. without an end?

A much better definition of infinity is: a number greater than every integer.

Thus, a set is said to be infinite if the number of elements it consists of is greater than every integer.

And if you can imagine a number greater than every integer, what stops you from imagining a number smaller than it but still greater than every integer?

Absolutely nothing.

I’ll ignore your post because it makes no sense.

Magnus, I disproved you’re nexts posts so hard in this message! You just say “it makes no sense”

viewtopic.php?p=2767640#p2767640

The implications of “order of infinities” Is that it’s a proof for god. Cantor believed that. If orders of infinities are true, then god exists. This discussion is not just about math!

I wouldn’t call that a premise. It looks like a conclusion derived from the premises. If that is the case, the question you are asking me ought to be: do you think it follows from the premises? And my answer would be: no, I do not.

If, on the other hand, it’s not a conclusion derived from the premises, but an independent claim, my response would be that it contradicts your prior claims.