Is a decision not to vote always irresponsible?

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
21

^^ My friend GateControl - he’s good, ain’t he? :wink:

That’s part of my problem, App. The best thing I can say about Bush is he makes me feel safe. However, a negative I can come right back and cite about Bush is he’s tied to huge corporate interests both past and present–and tied by proxy to big business interests through Cheney and Halliburton, et cetera, et cetera. (Enter once again this trust factor, a big unknown for me. Can he really be trusted?)

Speaking of trust… To answer your other question about why I feel disillusioned & confused over the whole Iraq invasion and what real (read :: ulterior) motives may have underlay it: GCT expressed my harsh misgivings and did my work for me! “Amongst everything else that I found, a simple google search revealed a plethora of news articles dealing with questionable, fabricated, and in one case, outright forged evidence used in support for the war. […] Any of them been publicly reprimanded for that yet?”
-GateControlTheory

Also, it was and continues to be a HUGELY costly move in human toll alone:

“Are we so cynical now that something that leads to the deaths of thousands of people can simply be excused by an, ‘oh he didn’t know… whoopsie’.”
-GateControlTheory

Y’know boys… This leads us to another ugly reality I see so often, of uniquely American hypocrisy and disingenuous, self-righteous justification for acts of war. One thousand American lives now lost and damn if we don’t hear about it every living day. But you NEVER hear about the 10,000-and-counting – a number which includes “enemy,” innocent, and simply neutral Iraqis slain during this war we decided to go wage. And well… you see, I have a conscience.

That stuff bothers the hell out of me. So, while I’m torn and often even chastise myself for being ‘undecided’ in such a terribly duplicitous and hegemonous nation - perhaps I should be proud of this trait of mine - of not buying hook line sinker and all - of everything the leaders of my country try to sell me?

Btw., while Bush makes me feel “safe,” Michael Moore and all that he does is patently heroic to me.

So, yeah. To return full circle, there is an excellent chance that I will not be able to bring myself to vote this year.

John

P.S. Abu Ghraib… Don’t go there girlfriend, don’t get me started. :angry:

22

lol it seems like you just dont like us very much! You just hate the US because it’s so successful!

lol… anyway…

I think all the democratic theory is missing the point… it’s those dying human beings that you mentioned earlier that should cause you to vote… and the tiny opp you have to mabey weigh in on their suffering…

Another difference aswell is that Bush’s “ownership” society is going to be more and more stripping away of social services in the name of tax and supply side breaks for the well-off. I would have thought the slowing down of the destruction of civil society might have been a good reason for voting…

also the fact that your country has less jobs now than it did 4 years ago… apparently that hasnt happened in someones term since the great depression.

and a potentialy crippling defecit…

and that crime is going up for the first time since reagan…

stuff like that would make me kind of want to vote…

23

LOL, for WHOM? ‘Talking•points•’ aside, that’s a cute parody and argument for the “anybody-but-Bush” vote. If only the world were so simple. :sunglasses:

24

You assume news articles are credible sources.

The question of conscious decision-making continues to linger in my understanding of history. Still, I could not support it with evidence of any more certainty than alternative arguments regarding the nature of the Western elite.

I doubt cynicism has anything to do with this. I think the majority is comfortable with the lifestyle they have come to depend on, and thus, have few other cares. However, there seems to be a relationship between scale and consistency of this observation. Each person would probably care enough to at least utter the words that they care, however, as a population, there is little evidence of any genuine care.

As are most wars.

Looking past geography and into state ideology, the death toll of those killed for a state society is much greater than that. It is nice to have a conscience (hopefully you do not view this as mockery of you as that is not my intention), but I can say with confidence that none of us here have completely evaded the comfortable lifestyle generated by state-waged war.

I have little insight into the problem of trust to be of any use. I have a tendency to make it worse for others, so I will respectfully abstain from directly discussing such a topic.

Assuming what I read about the Abu Ghraib story is an acceptable account, I found it to be the most recent example of Zimbardo’s (sp?) Stanford Prison Experiment if the conclusions of the study are taken at face value.

25

There are comfortable nations that have avoided state waged war.

Nations that have higher democracy ratings, more services available to their citizens, higher child mortality…

but they dont depend on state subsidisation of industry through the military (although a little bit of sub’s does seem to go a long way), waging of wars, killing and murder…

they’re not feared or “powerful” nations… (they’re also rarely attacked by others)… they’re just half-decent places to live… with plenty of problems admittedly…

but a war-wagging state isnt necessary for prosperity… although in the case of the US it would be quite traumatic to take it appart… wouldn’t be a simple change…

26

If we are thinking of the same nations, then you will likely note that their lifestyle is considerably different.

Nations with little military power tend to get over-run. A recent example is Haiti.

Explanation? If by prosperity you mean material wealth, then due to the limited (contrary to popular Western unconcious assumptions) resources to support this wealth, war is a necessary inevitability in expansionist policies. If by prosperity you mean non-material wealth, I would agree, though I would take it further to say a state itself is not required for such wealth.

Rome fell. However, though history does tend to repeat, this observation does not necessarily mean history will repeat in the future. My point of mentioning Rome is that size is no argument against the fall of nations.

27

not meaing a fall… just that the economy is so dependent on that particular form of protectionism… the transisiton to a freeer market would be economicaly traumatic (taking away military subsidisation of industry and the ability to control some foreign economic interests via military might)

we’re talking economicaly-civil society though right? here are some UN per-capita GDP states from the UN (2001), then infant mortality (low is better) and world-audit democracy rating (lower is better - its a ranking table of all 1million+ nations), then % in relative poverty:

United States of America 36,924, 7, 12, %10.8
Sweden 33,925, 3, 4, %3.8
Norway 48,881, 5, 5, %2.9
Netherlands 31,759, 5, 7, %4.6
Germany 29,137, 5, 13, %4.7
France 29,222, 5, 18, %3.4
Belgium 29,257, 4, 11, %3.3
Ireland 38,864, 6, 14, %4
New Zealand 19,350,6, 1, %na

(just added NZ cause that’s where I am…)

Anyway… fairly similar on paper (and I assume we’re not talking about language and shoes and stuff… I assume we mean economic-civil society etc…)

anyway these nations are roughly as wealth as the US, but with better distribution of wealth and generaly a better democracy rating (measure looks at participation in govt, indipendent media, economic freedom, human rights etc…)

these nations arnt being taken over, and arnt waging warms (of course a couple of them have fairly powerful millitaries… but come on… having a few nukes and picking on algeria and haiti hardly rivals the millitary output and spending of the US)…

now im not saying that these comparisons are entirely very fair or valid… there are a whole host of differences (many which go either way in a “how come” discussion)… but the point is that expansionism and military- state management of the economy dont seem to be the ONLY way to have a fairly comfortable society…

28

I dunno where I read it, but supposedly the Swiss have a higher per capita GDP then the U.S. now.

29

I admit, I assume dozens of news articles to be more credible vs. a what is said by a politician. Keep in mind, much of what the U.S. Intelligence apparatus knew was kept secret until Senate hearings after the fact, even then, has there been any actual evidence sufficient to justify a war?

So, yeah… I will take my news articles over various speeches anyday.

Well, either Iraq had WMD’s or it didn’t. If it didn’t (and no actual proof has been found) Then it didn’t. if it didn’t, but the administartion said it did, then someone (very likely quite a few someones) was lying.

To illustrate, this isn’t a situation where evidence can be misconstrued. If teh administration had sufficeint evidence prior to the war, that evidence itself would be sufficient after the war. The fact that it is not means that it was not

The war was unjustified.

I believe that, after having been misled, to approve of that by granting four more years in office is a sign of cynicism. I am not naive, as stated above I expect to be misled by most politicians, alas, this is why i vote, to remove those who would do so. Something tells me many Americans believe that all politicians will mislead them, thus it is a non issue come time for election. That attitude, coupled with a war, seems extremely reckless to me.