Here’s why, A British person ( for example, use any nationality you like ) claims that he is great because his country produced men like Charles Darwin or William Shakespeare. When this happens we base our entire view of him on people he has never met and is probably not even related to. His claims to be self important even though he himself does not boast about his own achievements. So he makes up for his lack of achievements by using patriotism.
However, more seriously the converse is also true. People still view immigrants who come from worn torn countries with suspicion. They know nothing about their culture or customs and believe they could not achieve anything as their country has achieved nothing. Most people under sane conditions would understand that in all societies, there are idiots and geniuses. This has nothing to do with their nationality or creed. However when patriotism takes over these same ideas seem to get lost, ( Take Nazi Germany as an example )
“There are only individual minds and individual achievements - and a culture is not the anonymous product of undifferentiated masses, but the sum of the intellectual achievements of individual men.†All of our ideas based on a person should be on what he does or does not do and not on the country he accidentally was born into.
In the main patriotism is used by a ruling class, be it the army or government to achieve a goal, which under normal conditions a man would not do. I can see no reason how patriotism could be useful for man kind as a whole or to the individual. We become no more then drones doing what the mass does out of fear for being called unpatriotic and supporting government policy no matter what the human rights cost may be.
Here is a quote from Hermann Goering, a word of warning!
“Naturally the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
I view patriotism as the love and pride of ones country and its people, and the will to defend it with ones life. When one grows up in a country, one is inclined to grow a bond with it; to wish for it to remain almost unchanged and live there happily ever after. One develops a love and pride of that country - and with that love and pride comes a will to defend it by whatever means necessary.
Then patriotism splits up into three categories; the aggressive patriot, the defensive patriot and the conscious patriot.
The aggressive patriot wants to invade any country for just about any reason its government gives, so long as the reason is persuasive enough. The aggressive patriot wants its country to flex its strength to further he’s own ego and pride. He is willing to fight for it whatever the cost.
The defensive patriot does not want war for any reason other then an imminent threat to ones country. The defensive patriot does not want to see himself and he’s neighbours thrown into battle, only to see them die and kill for a cause that doesn’t directly affect them. He is willing to fight and die for he’s country, but for only he’s country. He’s ego is boosted by he’s country progressing in its defence.
The conscious patriot is a mix between the aggressive and defensive patriot. The conscious patriot does not want to put the lives of himself his neighbours at risk, but is willing to go to war for what one sees as a just cause. He’s ego is boosted by every ‘good’ thing [in his mind] that he’s country accomplishes, and is willing to fight and die for what he views as he’s countries just causes.
Is patriotism stupid? I’d say in different ways, it is and it isn’t. Depending on which category one speaks of; I believe patriotism can either be stupid or wise. The line between which, however, is quite fine.
The conscious patriot is a mix between the aggressive and defensive patriot. The conscious patriot does not want to put the lives of himself his neighbours at risk, but is willing to go to war for what one sees as a just cause. He’s ego is boosted by every ‘good’ thing [in his mind] that he’s country accomplishes, and is willing to fight and die for what he views as he’s countries just causes.
OK, Heres an example.
I’m British – At the moment Britain is democratic.
I like democracy.
A Nazi state attacks Britain, So I join the fight for democracry.
I’m British – At the moment Britain is a Nazi state
I like demoracry
A Democratic state attatcks Britain. I fight for the enemy.
Am I patriotic?
Also I mean more then that. A patriot will consider him great because his country has produced great men. Is is a fool?
no, not at all. patriotism has to do with loyalty to your country. by definition, if you fight against your country, no matter the type of gov’t it has, you would not be able to be a patriot.
however! if britain were to be forcefully taken over and its gov’t changed, yet you remained faithful and loyal to the ‘old’ gov’t you could still theoretically call yourself a patriot (to the ‘old’ britain).
loyalty to an ideal makes one an idealist (or ideologist, whatever the proper term is you probably know what i mean …). for instance, i love democracy and could be loyal to most any country i lived in that was a democracy, and therefore i would seemingly be, at that time, a patriot. but the underlying reason for my outward loyalty to the country is not really direct to the country itself, it is to the gov’t that is currently running that country.
i think a loyalty to a country is not as wise as loyalty to the idea of one’s country. the actual country is too simple. there is no real principled belief behind just a country. it is only land and arbitrary, invisible lines dividing it from one mile over. the ideals that a country is founded or run on is where a person’s true loyalty should lie.
Cutting up the planet into many different nations does not help humankind, it is a control mechanism. Killing in the name of one’s country is good for one’s country, it is bad for the world.
i have had this point of view before, but the way i rationalize it is this:
communism (idealistic) is the best system. everyone is equal. it’d be great. no worries about money or anything because everyone’s the same.
seeing as that won’t happen…
an actual democracy is the next best option. unfortunately, there’s no way to have one except in small groups. therefore, splitting the world into countries divides it into smaller portions where democracy is more likely to work. (the problem here is that the leaders of the countries do not have to answer to anyone and there’s a struggle for as much power as is grab-able.)
governments and countries are about the inclusion and exclusion of specific types of people and structured around geographic landmarks. the idea that any human being defines themselves as proud of excluding other human beings from their society regardless of beliefs cultures and customs is a testiment to their inability to accept differences and act decently towards the excluded.
patriots are fools… that being said it would be stupid of me not to point out that to call someone a fool is in a way excluding them from my idea of what is acceptable. the difference between me and a patriot though is that im not proud of this flaw in my personality… and i certainly wouldnt wave a banner in someones face because of it.
Patriotism is not completely stupid. The love and pride for ones people and country because you grew up with them; its quite rational actually. Kind of like ones family. Sure, there is a lot of stupidity held within each country and family group - but is patriotism not almost exactly the same as the love and pride within ones family?
There is wisdom and there is stupidity: It is seldom totally tipped to one side or the other.
bishop, I agree.
I’m afraid that changes the word from patriotism to either religion or philosophy.
creation imperfect, nice quote. It reinforces my statement of the similarities between patriotism and family, heh, I like.
pride in your family is just as foolish as patriotism. the interconnectivity between all of the living organisms on this planet especially the community of human beings is what we belong to. the pretense that any one group of people being worth more than any other is a bad one to live by. i dont care what people say about heritage or loyalty to your roots… i care more about life than i do my family my friends my country or any other man made group or organization.
to me it does make sense to have some bonds of loyalty/patriotism, be it to family, state, country, continent, tectonic plate, or world. it is only natural for nearly every living organism on this planet to bond with others.
to make the strongest bonds that will benefit ourselves the most, we seek those that we have the most in common with. that starts with family. obvious common traits there. then those in the neighborhood. the people that choose to live in the same situations as you do should have some common traits, yes? then it keeps getting larger and larger to state, country, nationality, religion, etc.
with so many different things we can find common traits/features with others, i am amazed that country patriotism is still so strong. same with racial ones. as the world we live in today one can cross national borders several times in a single day ideas cross thousands of times faster, the distinction between nations is slimming and patriotism for one nation is/should be toning down right along with it.
I don’t disagree with you, but I do add that it does have some wisdom in it. I really don’t think theres anything humans do that doesn’t have some mixture of stupidity or wisdom behind it; but I do believe that for all our intellect, we can be really damn stupid.
“To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography.” - George Santayana
I agree. It could be useful in times of national emergency like a flood. People would be more willing to help if they some how feel united.
to make the strongest bonds that will benefit ourselves the most, we seek those that we have the most in common with…
I agree too. People are essentially selfish. Therefore loyalty to family etc… is useful as it can further your own interests as patriotism can too.
I guess it’s like the knife analogy. It can be used to cut bread or kill someone. In the main though governments use patriotism in times of war to whip up support. Look during peacetime, when are national slogans or flags flown?