is abortion genocide?

I posed this question on another thread.

Why? Because there are folks zealously committed to ending abortions. And they insist this medical procedure is nothing less then a modern day genocide. A mass slaughter of the truly innocent.

And I have to acknowledge this is not necessarily an irrational point of view. It is reasonable depending on the premises you choose to back it up.

But I believe this even more: that forcing women to give birth in a world where only women have to confront the agonizing consequences of an unwanted pregnancy will make them second class citizens.

How can women realistically compete with men for the best schools, the best jobs, the best careers, the best social, political and economic opportunities if they are commanded by the law to give birth against their will?

Or go to jail.

Let’s see. Of the two terms, genocide seems like it will be the one people will have more trouble agreeing on. I think it’s pretty clear what abortion means.

So genocide is defined here: “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group”

On this definition, no - abortion is not genocide, because it abortion is not a targeted, systematic effort to destroy any particular ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality.

If one wants to call the class of abortion deaths “murders,” the most one can say would be that taken together all abortions add up to a mass killing. And the guilty are thousands, perhaps millions.

Why are you asking a question that you think has two equally rational answers, and thus, can’t be answered?

The short answer is no. This debate is not academic for me either. My life
has been directly impacted by this issue. given my history, it is surprising but I favor
abortions for AGES and all situations and lets leave it at that.

Kropotkin

unwanted people are still people - truth is, i don’t think a fetus is a person, you might as well throw an acorn on the fire and equate it to cutting down an oak tree - but if you contend that the unborn are people, then you pretty much commit yourself to the view that abortion is wrong.

or is that too simplistic? i’m no moralist, i just play one for shits and giggles.

No.

you’re saying no to what? i’m not clear …

OH you’re answering the OP, duh.

:slight_smile:

Fuse summed it up well. I have nothing to add but my vote for “no, by definition abortion is not genocide.”

Yes, these are good points. But the arguments I have heard from those who claim that abortion can be thought of as genocide revolve around the idea that we live in a time where a frame of mind about aborting the unborn allows for the deliberate and systematic destruction of thousands upon thousands of innocent human beings.

Re my argument above, however, I agree with this and I don’t. I don’t believe the argument settles anything. Just as I don’t believe the argument that I embrace regarding the morality of abortion settles anything either. Which is to say I don’t believe it can be settled because no resolution can accommodate the concerns of both sides simultaneously.

Why? How odd. If this is what I believe to be the case why would I not ask it? Especially given the fact that so many others are convinced the question can be definitively answered:

“Yes, abortion is immoral…it is genocide!”
“No, abortion is not immoral…it is not genocide!”

Oh, and I ask because I am curious to hear arguments that may well conflict with my own.

If you take individuals as one-offs, never to be repeated, then yes, abortion is genocide.

The acorn argument is Ayn Rand’s. She says, in effect, “look at an acorn, then look at an oak tree. Big difference.” And that is certainly one way to go about it. But another way is to point out that not a single oak tree has ever become one without first having been an acorn.

Same with us. Not a single adult human being has ever become one without first having been a zygote, an embryo and a fetus.

On the other hand, I do not believe that contending unborn human beings are people amounts to embracing abortion as wrong. And that is because it can also be argued reasonably that forcing women to give birth against their will is also wrong.

Then what?

This, in my view, is what makes the abortion debate so excruciating. Both sides embrace “goods” that are legitimate. But they come into conflict. And if you embrace one side of the issue as reflecting good, you are, in turn, embracing what the other side construes to be evil.

“One-offs” are not an ethnic, racial, religious or national group. But hey, if you purport that rolling in mud is flying, then yes, pigs fly.

They could just not have sex, but when ever I say that people act like it’s unthinkable to recommend restraint. Babies should be raised communaly anyhow, Im sure that would help women who wish to receive higher education.

Restraint does not cover rape. As for communal child-rearing, are we referring to The Republic, Walden Two or something else entirely?

I don’t think of abortion as genocide. Is that the same thing as saying it’s not genocide?

I think of it differently depending on the development of the fetus. It’s hard to know when to start caring, but I guess it’s somewhere around the time the fetus starts looking human.

The question must be approached logically.
There are two questions that must be answered.
1.Are fetuses human?
2.Do the gains gained by a women destroying the fetus outweigh the price of the fetus’ destruction?

The first answer depends on how we define the word “human”. Let us say a few possible definitions.

Scientific Definition=A member of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Rational Definition=Any creature whose parents were a Homo Sapiens Sapiens
Religious Definition=Any sentient being descended from Adam.

Under any definition, the fetus counts as “Human”. It is genetically a member of the human race, its parents are humans, and it is a descendant of Adam.
Whether they would count as “sentient” would require another argument, but the fetus does count as a human being.

The second answer depends on this

What good is gained by the woman by destroying the baby? (being that it human, I will no longer refer to it/him/her as a “fetus” for the remainder of my argument)
What good does the baby lose by facing destruction?

The first question has already been answered by others. The woman gains wealth, political power, education, an occupation, and greater social standing.
The second question is obvious. The child loses all potential wealth, political power, education, occupation, and social standing, as well as life, and its rightful inheritance in this world.

So the woman would be depriving a fellow member of the human race of all his possible goods, for the sake of increasing her own good, for no other reason than his place of residence, which (except in case of rape), was entirely her own doing.

This is obviously morally wrong. The woman has sacrificed a life to make her life better. A human life is more precious than silver, and a mind is worth more than much gold. Better two live men in a slum, than one live man in a palace, and another man dead.

The only moral defenses in favor of abortion in any form, at any time, is that the child is not a human, or that it lowers the woman’s standard of living.
The first objection is false by any definition of “human”, the second is an insult to justice, when one considers that any standard of living increase bought in blood is not worth having. A few considerations

  1. The claim that women lose liberties if they cannot kill an unborn baby is correct. However, the same is also true with children of any age. Having children can be a major obstacle to gaining wealth, power, or social standing. It can also be a barrier to gaining political office. It is supposed to be that way. By having children (by having sex really) one is agreeing to put the needs and wants of one’s offspring or spouse above one’s own. If I choose to marry and have sons and daughters, I am agreeing to put my wife and children’s needs above my own. If a man and his family is in poverty and there isn’t enough food to go around, there is chain of people’s needs that go before his own. First his father (who would die without food fastest, and is the reason any of them are there), then his children, then his wife, and then himself. It is the same with a woman who chooses to have sex (or even, has sex forced upon her). She has a moral duty to her children to put their needs ahead of her own. If she must lose wealth, or health, or property, or friends, or family, or power, or even life itself, she should take this task with honor. The state cannot force her, however, to be this virtuous. However it does have at least this much power. That it should force her to give birth to her children, then let her either keep them, or send them away to an orphanage or some infertile people who would love a son or daughter.

Although you may see this as harsh, or even tyrant-like, we must admit that every human being has the right to life.

  1. I am not sure if it technically counts as a genocide, but it does have many of the characteristics of one. It has a death toll in the millions worldwide, with much of that coming out of the United States. It is done on a group with a similar identifying trait (extreme youth). It is done (supposedly) for the greater good of society, or the individual. And its victims are constantly denied their humanity, or reduced to sub-human status.

  2. Yes, I am a fundamentalist Christian, but I am also a rationalist, and have made only logical arguments, and not (obviously) religious ones. Therefore please do not dismiss my arguments simply because I am Christian.

4.Children in the womb might be sentient, I am not sure (another argument ), but I’d say they probably are. At least as much so as a two year old, or similar child. In any case this has no effect on my argument.

Yeah I get that but I’ve seen the statistics, the overwhelming majority of women that have abortions chose to have sex and simply don’t want the pregnancy because they think the child would interfere with their schooling/career or they simply don’t want to have a baby.

When it comes to communal child-rearing I get my ideas from instances where I’ve observed something similiar and from study of tribal society’s, though I have read “The Republic” so perhaps some of my thoughts are infuenced by that as well.