Is atheism a valid default paradigm?

[phyllo]

The Catholic Church has always insisted on the role of a spiritual director … perhaps akin to the role of a psychologist, psychiatrist or dream analyst. The alleged purpose being to guide inexperienced spiritual seekers along their spiritual journey. The more likely purpose being to stifle, curtail, suffocate or terminate the impulses from the spirit in novice seekers.

How so?

The Judaic religions … as with most religions … were born in a particular space at a particular time. The original adherents took a “snap shot” of the events in this particular space and time … a freeze frame. Future adherents insisted in clinging to the original “freeze frame”. The Jesus story is a classic example. Thus the hostile attitude to heresy and nonconformist thought.

So are there correct and incorrect interpretations of the Jesus story? Are all interpretations equally valid?

Are there effective and ineffective ways to pursue the spiritual journey? Are all spiritual pursuits equally effective?

Atheists are the best hope in solving the “ills” of religion(s).

How so?

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

@phyllo

The Catholic Church has always insisted on the role of a spiritual director … perhaps akin to the role of a psychologist, psychiatrist or dream analyst. The alleged purpose being to guide inexperienced spiritual seekers along their spiritual journey. The more likely purpose being to stifle, curtail, suffocate or terminate the impulses from the spirit in novice seekers.

How so?

The Judaic religions … as with most religions … were born in a particular space at a particular time. The original adherents took a “snap shot” of the events in this particular space and time … a freeze frame. Future adherents insisted in clinging to the original “freeze frame”. The Jesus story is a classic example. Thus the hostile attitude to heresy and nonconformist thought.

So are there correct and incorrect interpretations of the Jesus story? Are all interpretations equally valid?

I suppose from the perspective of the interpreter all interpretations are valid. My guess is … even those who followed the man every day for the three years of his ministry failed to completely understand his message.

Krishnamurti earned the respect of a large international community yet at age 90 he still claimed “nobody understands me”.

@phyllo

Are there effective and ineffective ways to pursue the spiritual journey? Are all spiritual pursuits equally effective?

I don’t know. Suppose one would have to first agree on the objectives of a spiritual pursuit.

@phyllo

@pilgrim-seeker-tom

Atheists are the best hope in solving the “ills” of religion(s).

How so?

The dialectic “Wu Ji Bi Fan” … “As soon as a thing reaches its extremity, it reverses its course.”

[phyllo]

I don’t know. Suppose one would have to first agree on the objectives of a spiritual pursuit.

Go ahead and start it off. You have been a pilgrim for a long time so you may have some insight into it.

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

@phyllo

I don’t know. Suppose one would have to first agree on the objectives of a spiritual pursuit.

Go ahead and start it off. You have been a pilgrim for a long time so you may have some insight into it.

1. My lifespan is short … I hope to spend my finite time wisely.

2. Insert here

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

@pilgrim-seeker_tom

@phyllo

I don’t know. Suppose one would have to first agree on the objectives of a spiritual pursuit.

Go ahead and start it off. You have been a pilgrim for a long time so you may have some insight into it.

1. My lifespan is short … I hope to spend my finite time wisely.

Some context … as if anyone really cares.

For the first 43 years of my life I was totally immersed in the crowd. The question … “Am I spending my life wisely?” never occurred to me. The crowd must be going the right way … I simply have to follow.

After being kicked out of the crowd … literally … I was confronted with the question … I had no choice but to consider it … my reliance on the crowd had disappeared.

My birth circumstances coupled with my life experiences brought me to where I am today. I’m quite comfortable … rightly or wrongly … claiming I had no choice but arrive here.

I’m also comfortable claiming atheists and agnostics are engaged in a spiritual pursuit … simply from a different angle/perspective.

[phyllo]

I’m also comfortable claiming atheists and agnostics are engaged in a spiritual pursuit … simply from a different angle/perspective.

Sure they can be engaged in a spiritual pursuit. But for atheists it explicitly excludes God. And if God IS and if God is important, then they are missing something. So a future based on that spirituality is lacking.
Of course if God ISN’T, then the theists are inserting an imagined extra part into spirituality.

I would say that ‘spirituality’ is concern with the non-material aspects of reality. ‘Pursuit of spirituality’ is an attempt to better understand those non-material aspects.

Unless someone claims that all reality is purely material, then he/she can be spiritual and pursue spirituality.

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

Objectives of Spiritual Pursuit

1. The human lifespan is short … pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual’s hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely.

2. Pursuit of spirituality’ is an attempt to better understand the non-material aspects of reality.

3. Insert here.

[phyllo]

1. The human lifespan is short … pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual’s hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely.

That can easily be satisfied by consumerism, politics, economics. Accumulation of wealth can be considered “finite time spent wisely” and therefore spiritual. But lots of people disagree - probably you do also if I read you correctly.

3. Insert here.

Yes, sexual hedonism. Some do consider it spiritual.

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

@phyllo

1. The human lifespan is short … pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual’s hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely.

That can easily be satisfied by consumerism, politics, economics. Accumulation of wealth can be considered “finite time spent wisely” and therefore spiritual. But lots of people disagree - probably you do also if I read you correctly.

3. Insert here.

Yes, sexual hedonism. Some do consider it spiritual.

Objectives of Spiritual Pursuit

1. The human lifespan is short … pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual’s hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely. In this context, ‘wisely’ means sincere consideration of the possible existence of non-material reality.

2. Pursuit of spirituality’ is an attempt to better understand the non-material aspects of reality.

3. A sincere willingness to consider/contemplate spirituality independently … independent of the religious crowd … independent of the atheist crowd … independent of the agnostic crowd.

4. insert here

[phyllo]

1. The human lifespan is short … pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual’s hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely. In this context, ‘wisely’ means sincere consideration of the possible existence of non-material reality.

The “non-material reality” is ‘relationships’, so clearly it exists. For example, ‘love’ is non-material and exists. Which is why “God is love” is such a common idea.

3. A sincere willingness to consider/contemplate spirituality independently … independent of the religious crowd … independent of the atheist crowd … independent of the agnostic crowd.

I don’t think that this independence is required. Why would it be?

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

Objectives of Spiritual Pursuit

1. The human lifespan is short … a pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual’s hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely. In this context, ‘wisely’ includes sincere consideration of the notion “a personal Holy Spirit”.

2. A sincere willingness to consider/contemplate spirituality independently … independent of the religious crowd … independent of the atheist crowd … independent of the agnostic crowd. Spiritual pursuit is an attempt at individuation vis a vis a personal/individual view/understanding of the spirit realm/sphere.

[pilgrim-seeker_tom]

Objectives of Spiritual Pursuit

1. The human lifespan is short … a pursuit of spirituality reflects an individual’s hope/desire to spend his/her finite time wisely. In this context, ‘wisely’ includes sincere consideration of the notion “a personal Holy Spirit”.

2. A sincere willingness to consider/contemplate spirituality independently … independent of the religious crowd … independent of the atheist crowd … independent of the agnostic crowd. Spiritual pursuit is an attempt at individuation vis a vis a personal/individual view/understanding of the spirit realm/sphere.

3. An attempt to breach our psychological ‘Firewall’ from within.

Definition Firewall:

a) A wall or partition designed to inhibit or prevent the spread of fire.
b) Computing … a part of a computer system or network that is designed to block unauthorized access while permitting outward communication.
c) Another term for Chinese wall.

All people have a psychological ‘firewall’ separating what they have … from infancy … come to embrace as valid … true … acceptable and so on. All the other stuff … the stuff on the other side of their psychological ‘firewall’ … external stuff … that’s inconsistent with what they are safeguarding behind the wall … can never penetrate their consciousness.

Religion is a classic example … from early childhood we are conditioned/programmed … via language instruction … ritual repetition … parental encouragement … peer pressure etc to embrace a certain dogma/doctrine. Anything inconsistent with this dogma/doctrine is alien and hostile … most often for the rest of our lives.

[b]

Further words can now be suffocating and counter-productive. Values and love have been written, gestured and shown sufficiently. We need to back away, continue to live our values and love that other, and let that other be free.

[/b]

Phyllo … your niggling has once again helped me to clarify my thoughts … thanks.

[phyllo]

All people have a psychological ‘firewall’ separating what they have … from infancy … come to embrace as valid … true … acceptable and so on. All the other stuff … the stuff on the other side of their psychological ‘firewall’ … external stuff … that’s inconsistent with what they are safeguarding behind the wall … can never penetrate their consciousness.

Religion is a classic example … from early childhood we are conditioned/programmed … via language instruction … ritual repetition … parental encouragement … peer pressure etc to embrace a certain dogma/doctrine. Anything inconsistent with this dogma/doctrine is alien and hostile … most often for the rest of our lives.

You and I have had very different upbringings.

Phyllo … your niggling has once again helped me to clarify my thoughts … thanks.

Every little niggle counts.

[iambiguous]

@phyllo

Iambig writes about this often and I think that’s one of his valid points. Once you fall down the relativist, subjectivist, nihilist rabbit hole, then psychopathy and narcissism become okay.

It’s not a rabbit hole. It’s just a way of thinking about human interactions in a world without God.

Construing them from a perspective embedded in the manner in which I have come to understand the existential relationship between identity, value judgments and political power.

And I never insist that my frame of mind reflects either the optimal or the only rational point of view. Instead, I ask those who don’t share it to note the manner in which it is not applicable to them when their own values [religious or otherwise] come into conflict with others.

And the behaviors of the psychopath can be rationalized as beyond his or her control.

The behaviors of the sociopath however are not embedded in chemical or neurological imperatives from within the brain. They are chosen more or less autonomously based on the assumption that in a Godless universe it’s not necessarily irrational to argue that morality revolves around self-gratification.

Where things really get tricky though is in imagining a world where “free will” is just an illusion.

If you know what I mean.