If God exists outside of creation, and we exist within creation, how can we know God?
In what way does creation impinge upon non-creation?
God is as knowable as you are. To the degree that you can know yourself, you can know God; but it helps to have that knowledge projected out into the world in the form of miracles and such like stuff.
How can God exist outside creation? I don’t see how that can make sense.
If you don’t look inside, how do you know the inside of a container is smaller than the outside? “Seeing” and “knowing” God is a matter of rational thought, impossible for most, difficult for the rest.
By Principle.
Good question. I know nothing about creation or what’s beyond it, but I suppose that if there were a God, and He existed outside of creation, one way we might know Him is if He made Himself known to us (assuming it was within His power).
This of course presupposes creation and a beyond creation. Be wary of the answers you get to these kinds of questions. There are a lot of people who will stake their lives on completely made up theories, or make up theories themselves, just to gain influence and authority. Don’t be willing to accept the first highfalutin answer some old guy gives you. Always ask lots of follow-up questions. People may sound smart, like they know what they’re talking about, but a lot of people take advantage of ignorance. I say this because of the questions you are asking. I take it you’ve heard from someone or some source that God exists outside creation and that creation impinges upon non-creation? I’ve heard these things a thousand times. They are vague ideas. Who has experience of non-creation? What can be logically deduced about it? What is non-creation? If it exists, how does anyone learn about it? In the end, people who advocate these ideas will “prove” their points with recourse either to the Bible as God’s word, interpreting the text to support their views and assuming in the first place that it is in fact the recorded word of God, or to their first-hand personal testimony of God’s word.
You will have to decide whether these people have truly connected with a divine power or whether they are just deluding themselves and others.
In the same way that the law of gravity exists eternally and outside of the physical falling.
Is the law of gravity an actual thing? Or is it our way of conceptualizing the consistent behavior of matter?
Plato et all had a big argument about whether principles and concepts are actually an existence (“being”). They never really resolved their differences. I can resolve it, but it is a long discussion (of course). So for the past 2500 years, it has been merely a matter of choice as to whether to accept that principles and concepts (gods and angels) are “beings” (existences) or not. The religions refer to them as beings (existences). The materialists, mostly merely in rebellion against religions, declare that they are not existent. Pick your poison. All are insane.
James S Saint,
I think all we can really say is that gravity is a human concept and that it may be a reification to treat it as an actual thing.
Should that not be, in what way does non-creation impinge upon creation? Those who believe that a creator has made creation tend to say that said agent communicates by non-natural means- what is known as revelation. So Hindus say that deity has made ultimate revelation available by intuition; Sikhs say that the actual words of deity are revealed through certain gurus; Muslims say that deity has made ultimate revelation available by dictation from an angel. Jews say that revelation has been historically revealed in events, and by particular prophecies to individuals. To these groups, and others, scripture is self-evidently ultimate revelation.
Christians agree with Jews, though with a different criterion- the ultimate revelation being personal, not textual. They have a different conclusion, also, and say that the prophesied Christ, deity himself, entered space-time as a human- thus making deity personal, to be known as a person, in the sense of having the spiritual and moral characteristics of humans. Christians therefore say that divine revelation is best seen, and God is best known, in humans- known as ‘saints’, who have become his ‘temples’. So people become Christians, become saints, ultimately because of revelation through existing saints, rather than through scripture. Or, to put it another way, the proof of the supernal Christ is in the practical, useful daily ‘eating’ of the ‘pudding’ of the fruits of the spirit of Christ- kindness, patience, humility, peaceableness, willingness to forgive, reliability, love. These characteristics are what they value, are what for them make a society, if only a micro-society, work to their satisfaction.
It’s just a choice. But the way you state it sounds like gravity didn’t exist before people thought of it. It is merely a matter of definition, which is why they argue for centuries and never conclude.
If God only exists outside creation, that would be a problem. However, theology has long taught that God is omnipresent outside of creation [transcendence] and inside [immanence]. The New Testament states that God is one in who we “live and move and have our being.”
I agree with you. However, God is said to have created everything. Sounds dumb doesn’t it.
Let’s take miracles. They are not true. We know that they are not true because you never see really hard miracles happening. Amputees never grow new limbs, for example. Also, miracles never happen due to the spontaneous action of God, but only when mediated by the dumb ass followers of God.
Nevertheless, I agree that the whole thing is projected onto the world.
Seeing and knowing God are not matters of rational thought, they are matters of faith. You need to consult your manual of faith, in my case the catholic catechism - although I am lapsed.
That analogy can’t be right. God creates the created universe, therefore he must exist before the created universe, therefore he exists outside of it.
Is it not possible that gravity exists by virtue of it’s effects?
Can we not say that massive objects attract, because we observe that this is so?
Can we not decouple the human concept from the actual physical action that is observed?
Surely we can treat gravity as a fucking thing, can we not?
Actually you are right. gravity is just a choice. Also, gravity didn’t exist before people thought of it. In those days they used to float around a lot because the lazy bastards had not bothered to think of gravity. In any case, it is merely a matter of definition.
What a wanker!
So Christians and Jews agree, but they have different criteria and they have different conclusions. Are you stupid or what?
It is just a choice.
When I ignore gravity I tend to float, but when I take it seriously I tend to walk about on planet earth. Are you people retards? or what.