Is it okay for an United Church minister to be an atheist?

phyllo · August 14, 2015, 3:38pm

BTW, she is not the only minister who does not believe in god.

As a prerequisite for the job of being a Church of England priest, it would seem not unreasonable to expect a belief in God to be fairly essential.

But this is not the case, according to a poll of Anglican clergy which found that as many as 16 per cent are unclear about God and two per cent think it is no more than a human construct.

It is 30 years since David Jenkins, then the Bishop of Durham, caused controversy by casting doubt on the resurrection, but it appears that such unorthodox views are widespread amongst Britain’s priests.

In addition to those who describe God as a human creation, the YouGov poll found that three per cent believe there is some sort of spirit or life force and 9 per cent argue it is impossible to imagine what God is like.

Clergy were significantly more likely to hold unorthodox beliefs the older they were and the longer they had been in the ministry. Nearly 90 per cent of those ordained since 2011 believe in God compared with only 72 per cent of those who became priests in the 1960s, the research discovered.
…
The Rev David Paterson, a retired Church of England priest, said there was no conflict in preaching while being unable to believe in God. “Within my congregation I would take the line that how you feel about God is not in the least dependent on whether you think God exists or not. I preach using God’s terminology, but never with the suggestion that God actually exists,” he told University Times, Trinity College Dublin’s newspaper.

“Once you have accepted that religion is a human creation, then it is like art and literature and things like that. They are an extremely valuable way to understand yourself.”

independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho … 21899.html

A Catholic priest is being investigated by church authorities after complaints from angry churchgoers that he does not believe there is a God, Heaven or Hell.

Father Jude Bullock, from Islington, north London, has been ordered to explain his views to Cardinal Basil Hume, the Archbishop of Westminster and leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales.

The radical cleric, who refuses to wear a dog collar, preaches at St. John the Evangelist church. He has so upset parishioners that some have boycotted his masses.

He is the first Catholic priest to be publicly identified with the Sea of Faith group, set up to promote the idea of religion as a human creation. Two years ago one of its Anglican members, Rev Anthony Freeman, was sacked by his bishop for saying he did not believe in God.

According to Fr Jude, 37, there is no God “out there”. His confusing explanations range from: “God is nothing and god is everything”, to “God is being in itself”.

He says his prayers are “more like meditation”, that he has “dumped” the idea of the soul and questions the concept of the virgin birth.

He defended his controversial views last week: "It’s just a re-interpretation of the term God in non-supernatural terms. We should not focus on punishment and reward at the end of our lives as a way of guiding our ethics.

“I don’t thing Heaven and Hell are places that the soul – whatever that is – goes to. They are descriptive of the way life can be lived.”.

In accordance with this view Fr Jude has excised “everlasting life” from his sermons, preferring to refer to life as “timeless”.

Asked what happens after death Fr Jude said: “Speculation is futile. I haven’t the foggiest”.

And questioned over Jesus’ resurrection, he said: “It’s absurd to think you can comment on literature that’s almost 2,000 years old.”

This weekend, Cardinal Hume assured concerned Catholics that he is investigating Fr Jude’s position, talking to both the priest and his detractors. It could be a lengthy investigation. In his first response to the Archbishop, Fr Jude wrote: “The issues of Heaven, Hell, evil and the Resurrection are too complex to discuss now without this letter turning into a thesis”.

He has also suggested philosophical reading material for those who disagree with him.

However, Fr Jude does not expect to be expelled. “This is a universal church. I have spoken to the Archbishop and I get on well with him. We don’t share the same views, but I think he knows where I’m coming from.”

But for some, Fr Jude’s musing are nothing short of heresy. Dennis Everest, a lay Catholic who has complained to Cardinal Hume, said: “Why is this man a priest?”

sofn.org.uk/press/bullock.html

LaughingMan · August 15, 2015, 6:08am

Religion is big business.

turtle · August 15, 2015, 1:20pm

all she is doing is rejecting the THEIST god

phyllo · August 15, 2015, 2:51pm

Theos means god in Greek. A theist is someone who believes in one or more gods.

Therefore, the phrase ‘theist god’ doesn’t make any sense.

phyllo · August 15, 2015, 2:53pm

You should become an evangelist. Corrupt the system from within and make lots of money … win-win.

turtle · August 15, 2015, 2:54pm

she is not rejecting god

phyllo · August 15, 2015, 3:08pm

She is making the same distinction as you are … between god and god god.

So she can call herself an atheist (which she did) and yet she supposedly believes in some sort of god, but she sees no evidence of the existence of any sort of god.

One would think that the distinction between theist and atheist is pretty simple and well defined.

Apparently not.

LaughingMan · August 15, 2015, 3:16pm

I’ve thought about it actually a couple of times.

I believe I got what it takes to fake it and if a lot of money was involved I am willing to pretend to believe in anything.

turtle · August 15, 2015, 3:20pm

phyllo ----does anyone have EVIDENCE of the existence of any sort of god…she is talking about scientific evidence…there isn’t any evidence right now…we may find evidence but we don’t know now…

phyllo · August 15, 2015, 3:31pm

Fundamental to every religion is that you can see some manifestation of God in the world. It would not make sense to say “this god exists but there are absolutely no signs of it in the world”.

The difference between a theist and an atheist:
Theist : that thing over there is a work of god and shows the existence of god.
Atheist : that thing over there is just a weird random thing and has nothing to do with a god.

turtle · August 15, 2015, 3:35pm

god cannot be put in words

phyllo · August 15, 2015, 3:39pm

Non sequitur

turtle · August 15, 2015, 4:15pm

in my mind there is no problem with god…god is everything…we know some about nature already and we will learn more…we will learn more about life and more about the universe…god is whatever nature is…and we are part of nature…and jesus has much to teach us…

phyllo · August 15, 2015, 4:54pm

Why call it god? Use the razor and get rid of god if you do not need him. If you did, then the world would have one less complication. Your life would be simpler.

turtle · August 15, 2015, 5:02pm

why do I bother you so much

phyllo · August 15, 2015, 5:32pm

One post you don’t know, the next post you apparently know a lot.

One post we must be loving, compassionate and accepting, the next post you insist that things must be your way.

One post you believe in god, the next post you say things which clearly indicate that you don’t believe in god.

Scripture, science, Buddhism, …

You seem to hold completely contradictory views on practically everything that has been discussed here. How is that possible?

turtle · August 15, 2015, 6:03pm

sorry…

phyllo · August 15, 2015, 6:04pm

Why?

For what?

turtle · August 15, 2015, 6:11pm

you don’t understand the god god…the real god
you are stuck in the past

phyllo · August 15, 2015, 6:22pm

Oh, and you are sorry for me.

C’est la vie.