Is Nietzsche Overman, authenticity/self actualisation?

Is Nietzsche’s Overman, or could it be seen as, just a self actualised person who lives authentically. My lecturer disagrees because he says there have never been any overmen so its not just a case of being an authentic individual. I would like to counter this by saying how many actual truly authentic people do you know in society either! Nearly everyone I know is just a mass of incongruencies; Abraham Maslow admitted that perhaps only 1-2% tops of society arre ‘self actualisers’ this mimics Nietzasche’s statement that society is meant only to create an excellent few (Overmen). I think he talks bullshit and think they are exactly the same or very similar conceptions. I think the only reason Nietzsche says an overman has not yet existed is just because society up till his day has produced such ‘weak’ stock (we are remember amid the herd in a slave morality run society). I would agree that perhaps Nietzsche’s overman may be more ‘stringent’ in regards to how one achieves such a ‘post’ but I would say that both Maslow’s self actualisation and Heideggerian/existentialist authenticity are on the same path. I would say that Heideggerian authenticity comes closest as it is indeed more of a strict doctrine and regards more to do with finding ones historicality through deep ecology which is similar to Nietzsche’s positive affirmation of the earth and subsequent self overcoming. I am still confident that all these things are pretty much the same.

I would like to hear all your views for/against…

cheers.

For.

I think the overman would have to be an experiment of isolated people who’re socially inexperienced and only do for themselves and who’s only influence is that of their own. They would be entirely immoral as they would have no one to care about but themselves. It’s impossible to become a single willed being and interact whatsoever with an averse obstacle that would have you compromise at every turn.

[-X I disagree. This is precisely what self actualisation or authenticity consists of- adapting yourself to your particular zeitgeist. Authenticity consist of manipulating yourself and your environment such that you ‘fit in’ find your niche or whichever cliche you wish to use; one’s facticity is always a given. It is not a case of isolating yourself and becoming an aryan race of superbeings, cut off form the rest of the world (although if one felt it their authentic destiny to do so then so be it), but Nietzsche, Sartre, Heidegger all speak of this notion related to your facticity. For Heidegger this is being-with the they (authentically) rather than being-for (inauthentically), Nietzsche it is just a part of ‘becoming who you are’.

I think then that authenticity within a society necessitates learning to lve-with others without compromising yourself, or not to the degree so as to compromise your will to power (to use Nietzschean terminology). As such, what is considered ‘authentic’ for Nietzsche? Anyhting which increases ones ‘quantum of power’, and that which is inauthentic, anything which frustrates it. Now those who are not familiar with the notion of will to power will probably get excited by this claim :slight_smile:.

Preposterous!

If everyone has a will to power, nobody has power. Nobody decides. Everyone is a challenger. There is no overman because high population in moral society will not allow it. No man is alone. No man is an individual. Compromise is mediocrity.

Now then now then.

Are you familiar with Nietzsche’s notion of the wil to power. Every action is will to power, this is not MERELY the notion of survival of the fittest strengthwise. Every action you take can be placed down to some sort of manifestaiton of the will to power. Slave morality (that which this society is based) is a sublimation of the will to power. When the slaves were too weak to figth the masters they instead formed ressentiment and slave morality and the Christianity were born. Society is just built on this same slave morality which was the slaves expression of the will to power.

You tryping a reply can be seen as will to power as you want to get your ideas out there or learn more to boost your knowledge of the world and insodoing increase your mental power within the world. ITs all will to power baby, not just the ‘I have big stick I kill’.

I’m talking about the overman. The most singled out, independent person I could fathom is a lonely man in the woods who neither relies on nor helps anyone but himself. Someone else getting in the way could either add or take away from your uberness and we can’t have that. No cheating.

Again, incorrect.

You will recall if you have read any of Zarathustra that he goes to the hills, attains his enlightenment then on the FIRST page (or so) comes back down from the hills! because he wants to SHARE his knowledge. So no I dont think its cheating. He dehermitises himself right at the start. Now you could say Z is not an Overman if you wanted to and thats fine but I have another cannon for your gills!

The whole philosophy of the overman is to CREATE, DANCE PLAY and REJOICE in THIS world not the next or any other. I find it hard to believe he would want to do this on his own with a bottle of Jack Daniels around a lonely campfire. If he is to embrace this world and everything in it, does that not include natures children? ie other humans? The creation part is especially important. Who is he going to create works of art for, himself yes, but Im sure he will want to enjoy it with others.

Keep the comments up this is giving me good food for thought.

Again, incorrect.

You will recall if you have read any of Zarathustra that he goes to the hills, attains his enlightenment then on the FIRST page (or so) comes back down from the hills! because he wants to SHARE his knowledge. So no I dont think its cheating. He dehermitises himself right at the start. Now you could say Z is not an Overman if you wanted to and thats fine but I have another cannon for your gills!

The whole philosophy of the overman is to CREATE, DANCE PLAY and REJOICE in THIS world not the next or any other. I find it hard to believe he would want to do this on his own with a bottle of Jack Daniels around a lonely campfire. If he is to embrace this world and everything in it, does that not include natures children? ie other humans? The creation part is especially important. Who is he going to create works of art for, himself yes, but Im sure he will want to enjoy it with others.

Keep the comments up this is giving me good food for thought.

I’m not really even trying to discuss what Nietzsche’s Z did, but rather how contradictory it is for him to have a unique individual who has no need for morality or herd mentality within a regular setting of a moral and herded society. This overman can’t act as an overman under such conditions and, therefore, can’t be one. He could only be a true superhuman alone and without interference.

I dont think that an overman necessarily has to not come into contact with anyone. The idea of the overman is meant as a staple for all humans in the future, an ideal to strive for.

I think its more instructive to think of it like capitalism. Capitalism is about being an individual and gaining as much as you can but at the same time it helps you that people buy from you. So if the system is working correctly both people gain.

With the overman it isnt necesarily so that being in the company of someone else is going to compromise him. I think this is your crucial misunderstanding. The overman is OVERABUNDANT. Because his cup is overflowing he can give to others and spread his wealth and this is in no way compromising him. He in fact lives for and enjoys showering others with the fruits of his wealth. You are looking at it from a scarcity mentality of there being a lack of resources whereas the Overman sees the world as an overabundant fruit for all to enjoy.

bg&e "203

We have a different faith; to us the democratic movement is not only a form of the decay of political organization but a form of the decay, namely the diminution of man, making him mediocre [Vermittelmässigung] and lowering his value. Where, then, must we reach with our hopes?— Toward new philosophers; there is no choice; toward spirits strong and original enough to provide the stimuli for opposite valuations and to revalue and invert “eternal values”; toward forerunners, toward men of the future who in the present tie the knot and constraint that forces the will of millennia upon new tracks. To teach man the future of man as his will, as dependent on a human will, and to prepare great ventures and overall attempts of discipline and cultivation by way of putting an end to that gruesome domination of nonsense and accident that has so far been called “history”—the nonsense of the “greater number” is merely its ultimate form: at some time new types of philosophers and commanders will be necessary for that, and whatever has existed on earth of concealed, terrible, and benevolent spirits, will look pale and dwarfed by comparison. It is the image of such leaders that we envisage: may I say this out loud, you free spirits? The conditions that one would have partly to create and partly to exploit for their genesis; the probable ways and tests that would enable a soul to grow to such a height and force that it would feel the compulsion for such tasks; a revaluation of values under whose new pressure and hammer a conscience would be steeled, a heart turned to bronze, in order to endure the weight of such responsibility; on the other hand, the necessity of such leaders, the frightening danger that they might fail to appear or that they might turn out badly or degenerate—these are our real worries and gloom—do you know that, you free spirits?—these are the heavy distant thoughts and storms that pass over the sky of our life. There are few pains so irritable as to have once seen, divined, sympathized when an extraordinary human being strayed from his path and degenerated. But whoever has the rare eye for the overall danger that “man” himself is degenerating, who, like us, has recognized the monstrous fortuity that thus far has been at play regarding the future of man—a game in which no hand, and not even “God’s finger” took part as a player!—who divines the calamity that lies concealed in the absurd guilelessness and blind confidence of “modern ideas” and even more in the entire Christian-European morality: this person suffers from an anxiety that cannot be compared to any other; with a single glance he sees everything that could be bred from mankind, given a favorable accumulation and increase of forces and tasks; he knows with all the knowledge of his conscience how man is still unexhausted for the greatest possibilities and how often the human type has already confronted enigmatic decisions and new paths:—he knows better yet, from his most painful memory, what wretched things have hitherto usually caused an evolving being of the highest rank to shatter, break apart, sink down, became wretched. The overall degeneration of man down to what today appears to the socialist dolts and flatheads as their “man of the future”—as their ideal—this degeneration and diminution of man into the perfect herd animal (or, as they say, to the man of the “free society”), this animalization of man into the dwarf animal of equal rights and claims, is possible, there is no doubt of it. Anyone who has once thought through this possibility to the end knows one kind of nausea that other men don’t know—but perhaps also a new task! …"

bg&e "29

Independence is for the very few:—it is a privilege of the strong. And whoever attempts it even with the best right to it, but without needing it, proves that he is probably not only strong, but also daring to the point of recklessness. He enters into a labyrinth, he multiplies a thousandfold the dangers which life brings with it; not the least of which is that no one can see how and where he loses his way, becomes lonely, and is torn piecemeal by some Minotaur of conscience. Assuming such a person perishes, this happens so far from the comprehension of men that they neither feel it nor sympathize:—and he cannot go back any longer! nor can he go back to the pity of men! — —"

-Imp

The overman is above and beyond everyone else. He couldn’t go back to the herd. Once he’s gone, he won’t be back to share anything. That’s weak.

I like to look at the ubermensch as a goal in life to be attained through vigorous exercise and mental practice.

These are nice quotes to support the Hermit Overman, but still Im not convinced. It seems absurd that Nietzsche would envision the overman alone on an island with only his animals to keep him company. Part of the whole struggle of overcoming is (to think of Sartre here) overcoming your facticity of being with others. ‘Hell is other people’. By running away to some alaskan island would not be overocming but RUNNING somehting Im SURE Nietzsche would not have advocated.

I see the Overman as like the Buddha. He achieves enlightenment then it is up to him whther he returns to the people or not, it is by no means a necessity that he must hide away.

Sounds great to me.

( Although I don’t see Buddha as being anywhere near the state of the over man. Buddhism has superstitious moralities comprising itself which is nowhere near nihilism.)

He probably did mean it like that. I’m sure the overman is meant to be in a huge population and be like everyone else…overcoming…something. It doesn’t come to mind but I’m sure it’s something. Maybe someone going from assistant manager to manager at a mc donalds?

Um…but that’s not very fantastical and I’m not impressed.

What?! Heresy!

The Ubermensch has actualiized himself in spite of his particular zeitgeist.

He is himself entirely, irregardless of what the prevalent societal standard may or may not be.

It isn’t considered.

I have done some study in regard to the question whether any Overmen have ever existed. I will provide you with excerpts, and links to the full “articles”.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/human_superhuman/message/2

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/human_superhuman/message/5

The Overman is superhuman in relation to the “good” man in particular - see the Description of my Yahoo! Group:

So you’re saying ubermensch is only existent insofar as the one(s) who claim to be?