I have really been wondering about this a lot "are we really in our universe or are our so called “sense’s” playing tricks on us? We think we see something in front of us, but is it really there? Maybe the fuel of our so called “universe” is thought. Maybe our thoughts are the universe that is infinite because we think it’s there (or as like to call the “infiverse”). Do you think that this theory is too illogical or not true?
This reminds me of a guest-post that was seen in the Rant House back in like May:
Technically, we can’t really prove that anything really exists at all. But, if it is all an illusion, it (the illussion) is extremely complex, complicated, and advanced…so much so, that we can “live” in this illussion without feeling a lack of anything. Quite frankly, if everything is an illusion, then it is better that it be all false rather than it actually being reality. We can barely handle living in this illussion, and if “life” were any more real, we just would not be able to take it.
Besides, we can never truly know what life is "(assuming we are living in an illusion) really like outside of this illusion. And, thus, it really does not make any difference.
Repeating what I said elsewhere on this websight; We are, maybe, 1000 years off producing a virtual reality that is indistinguishable from the real thing. Once you can do it once, you can do it billions of times. The chances are, therefore, billions to one that we are in a virtual reality if, and this is a big IF, anybody has done it once. I do, however, suggest you regard it as the real thing, 'cos if you don’t you can really end up in big, big trouble.
It is almost like Descartes’ argument of the demon that makes us believe we are perceiving, sensing, etc but they are all just “imagined” and reality does not really exist. The universe does not exist. The earth does not exist. Therefore, I have reason to doubt the totality of what my senses tell me as well as the knowledge I have about the external environment are “false.”
Hence, our existence is questioned:
Would it be possible for me to believe that I exist, and this belief be false?
Then again, it is only ‘possible’. We would have to go far as to trying to prove some demon that makes us believe things actually exists. “Possible” here means epistemically possible.
-Either I accept the premises or I reject them
-If I accept, the belief tells me I must reject (since it is ‘possibly’ false)
-So I must reject them. Where is the conclusion’s support?
This argument is also self-defeating. Since it is ‘possible’ that this ‘demon’ exists, then it is also ‘possible’ that this demon DOES NOT exist.
And what are we left with?
And you think the demon would makes us think these thoughts anyways?
Though I do believe THOUGHTS do play an important role in the perception of our environment (such as beliefs), I do not think it would go as far as saying; “I do not exist” “My senses do not exist” “The universe does not exist”
Therefore, the argument is inconclusive since everything is ‘‘possible’’
yes but remember: Descartes was saying all that to prove yet a greater point: his near-axiom of proof of self-existence. Not perfect, but he did try hard to prove his point.
I dont think its illogical at all. I ‘believe’ that we cannot know whether anything truely exists, including ourselves… yet i live and behave as tho it is. ‘Life’ seems too real to think of it other than being real.
I discuss this subject matter quite a lot with someone i know because he tends to think nothing is in front of us and actually detaches from reality, having ‘episodes’ of living as though nothing other than his mind exists. (He posts here so my appologies to him if i got that wrong at all), but yeah i think he can believe that so strongly that it actually affects his behaviour. Does anyone else get that? Being so aware that nothing other than ur mind exists that u slip into that way of thinking all the time and it causing detachment and affecting your interactions?
What makes this post so spooky is the fact that we can imagine today with our relatively primitive technology how to create a virtual reality. So if we continue to evolve even at a moderate pace, then in 1000 or even 10,000 years we could really create complete virtual reality universes with people inside them being fooled. Consider also the possibility of modifying our neural circuits and alot of other technologies and then there is really no limit. So this question is becoming increasingly a very concrete and practical question.
baahh…the theory that the universe is just an illusion is called “idealism” ( read Berkely) and it was a common theory in the late 17 early 18 hundreds.
Yeah, I know what idealism is and who Berkeley is. But how exactly was it disproved?
Perhaps you can lower urself to give ur own thoughts on this matter or explain things as opposed to treating us all condescendingly and just name-drop?
I’m tired of people acting all superior as though they already know everything and have read everything about everything and expecting everyone else to have done the same. If we already fulfilled those criteria, we wouldn’t be here and I’m sure that applies to you just as much as anyone else here but just in a different way.
This forum isn’t an ego contest, its for discussion and enlightenment in accordance with our interests. Amongst other things. Please treat it like that, thank you.
I become like that sometime, except I don’t show it. Sometimes I will go so deep in thought about existance that I will lose my attachment to reality. But I eventually "swim back to the surface of my thoughts. And I’m 13, so you do the math. And BillWalton, how can you prove that existance and our universe is something that is no more than illusion? If you think about it, our sense of sight could create illusions of what is not even there. C’mon, think about it.
Oh my gosh, this was an issue shown in a video game by SquareSoft called “Star Ocean: 'Till The End Of Time”!! It showed people in a “4-D” world that had used people from the “reality” as video game characters!!! Hey it can’t be physically proved but how about mentally proved. People limit themselves to the “if-I-don’t-see-it-and-it’s-weird-then-it-doesn’t-exist” belief system. How would you KNOW existence?
I don’t see why it is necessary for one to be able to prove his exsistence. I won’t ever be able to know whether I’m living in reality or in an allusiuon anyways, and thus, attempting to prove it one way or another will not change anything about my life at all.
You can’t technically prove anything at all. at any rate, we do have some sense of ability to understand and comprehend the concept of an “illususion” since we experience them from time to time. In order for us to have any understanding of what an illusion is, we must first have some “non-illusion” to compare it to to see any distinctionm between the two. We call this “non-illusion” reality. Even if this state of “non-illusion” is really nothing more than a greater illusion (in which we live everyday), it is still the closest we will ever get to understandinf reality.
heres why we are living in an illusion: my assumptions:
we live in a place where everything has a cause. except everything. science will discover what caused the big bang. “oh ok so what caused that… oh ok so what caused that…” forever.
i cannot imagine how we will ever answer every question based on the fact that there is an interfering little wrench in the works called infinite time.
you cant just “cause” everything. it doesnt make sense. because what caused that?
therefore, the idea of cause and effect is wrong. therefore any reality containing an infinitely unresolvable sequence of causes is fundamentally not the full reality. the full reality does not contain such a fallible resource for discovering the meaning. the full reality does not contain such a fallible concept as “meaning” exactly as we know it.
BMW-GUY pretty much summed up what I was going to say.
For there to be an illusion there must also be a reality to compare it to. If everything is an illusion than there is no reality and if there is no reality than there is no illusion.
We don’t know if we are living in a place where everything has a cause…i.e quantum physics. Stephen Hawking came up with a theory that the universe came into existence uncaused with 95% probability.
There is no such thing as infinite time. Time started with the Big Bang.
Only your misconception of cause and effect is wrong.
everything humans experience and understand relies on the existence of cause and effect. no cause and effect, no reasoning abilities.
logic only works when you make assumptions, it is the relation between those assumptions. the only reason i know that “all As are Bs” is because in the past, i have observed that this is so, and i have also observed that the future will most likely resemble the past.
if there is no experience, there are no assumptions that can be made by our specific kind of brain. if there are no assumptions, no logic, no explanation for things as we understand them.
therefore, thats not the way things “really are.”
the reality is in that special place we cant see. either you admit there is a place, or you admit that there is no explanation for how and why stuff is here.