Is philosophy about being smart or good?

What is true? How can we be “good” people and live “meaningful” lives?

I’m tired of philosophy pretending it can answer the first question, and even more tired of it ignoring the second two.

For the past ten years, I’ve accepted that philosophy is a viable but inferior way to report the truth either by building or tearing down an argument. It’s sad really, to watch philosophy try to be like science and destroy itself in the process.

After learning the syllabus for the history of western philosophy and playing around with some semantics and deconstruction for a few years, I had my fill and started thinking about other things. Mainly science and art.

How to countenance science and what to feel about it, I’m left to my own devices, needing answers. But I don’t turn to philosophy for answers, haven’t for a while. I should, but I can’t bring myself to do it, because last time I did that, it betrayed me by disappearing up its ass, specializing, becoming a game of infinitely regressive one-upmanship over ways to build and tear down sentences and definitions. It took me places where I couldn’t learn anything about how to live or what to do; it made it seem like those places were the truth, and that the truth was existentially empty.

I like to think philo gave me the synapse pathways to help me come to peace with the fact that I seem to be floating in the locus of phenomena; it helped me figure out what to do with the seconds as they tick by, without wanting to end it. But not much has changed since I first logged on to ILP 12 years ago, quickly, impulsively typing in the screen name Gamer. I figured life is just a stupid game, but that to play this game well is to be like Sisyphus, enjoying every step, per Camus. To this day, I haven’t come across a more useful idea than Camus’ Sisyphus, because I’m in the business of stepping forward and trying to enjoy it. The reasons to enjoy it are a collaboration between the Universe and me, and it takes practice, like anything else, to generate the byproduct I term meaning.

And that’s it really. Meaning creation. Philosophy remains a useful tool for this, alongside science and religion. But only insofar as philosophy resists the pull toward aping scientific discourse and experiment. This ruins philosophy. It doesn’t help us be like Camus. It doesn’t help us create meaning. It simply serves to make philosophers look insecure scrambling to look smart next to science by creating arguments that are hard to follow and lead to nothing except a point won that nobody cares about, or could possibly care about. I’m not putting down history or mastery of philosophical ideas and achievements. I’m mainly talking about the front lines, the modern debates – a game played in academia, where bright people get to pretend they are like the white bearded men, the immortal names, they get to feel holy and rare and noble. But it’s a very sad game, a spinning, a puddle.

Philosophy is best in the public square and when it aims to make us better, nobler people, when it helps us come up with a reason to go on. When it allows us to untangle the knots in the muscles of our souls, the common knots we all face and face again until we die.

It’s at its worse in the words of academic theses covering the tenth layer of a misconception atop a fallacy atop a metaphor.

Science is obligated to hunt down the microns of its own flesh; philosophy is not. In fact, philosophy is obligated to do the opposite; to narrow its attack against only those things existentially relevant, and to prioritize the more common challenges that never stop growing like weeds, holding us back.

Where do you stand on this?

I don’t see the questions as separate. What is good, and what it is to live with meaning, are inextricable from the truth. The good and the meaningful are built of the atoms of truth.

I’ve always found it noteworthy that “science” and “philosophy” were once synonyms, and as modern science grew in power in prominence it dropped the qualifier “natural” and the language began to give the impression that philosophy and science are separated by a more fundamental distinction. Whether or not this dichotomy is real, it seems that science is in fact an example of what you describe as philosophy “disappearing up its ass”. For my part, I see it as a loss for both science and philosophy, exactly the kind of insularity you criticize in what continued as academic philosophy after the split.

At times I’ve described philosophy (that is, philosophy-that-is-not-science) as “the art of hypothesis”. That description is absolutely to give science primacy, but I think that’s an accurate description of philosophy’s role in the vocabulary of science (and there are other ways to describe philosophy, from other perspectives and in other vocabularies, that are equally valid). But to break the description down:

  • “The art…”: In dealing with systems of thought, and subjecting every part of any system to analysis, it is in many ways not an objective endeavor, instead offering what can only amount to aesthetic justifications for the most fundamental parts of any system.
  • “…of hypothesis”: Nonetheless, these systems bear relation to what can happen, will happen, should happen. Ultimately, the aesthetically-justified systems encounter what presents itself as objective reality; they create expectations, and the meeting or defying of those expectations can break the systems on their own terms.

Perhaps another way to put it is, if science tells us what is true, philosophy(-that-is-not-science) tells us what might and may not be true given the truths of science.

But, as I say, that is a science-minded definition of philosophy, useful for someone like myself who accepted the methods of science before I encountered anything explicitly distinguished as philosophy. When I did expand from science to philosophy, it was in the same vein: science looks for truth, and philosophy is the same search but in areas that the methods of science can’t adequately touch.

So I’d sooner say that it is philosophy that is obligated to analyse itself than science. Science can’t be so obligated, because it is unable. Philosophy alone is the system of thought that contains itself. That makes it powerful and dangerous, as all recursion is: able to generate conceptions of good and meaning and other emergent properties, and to ennoble us thereby, but also subject to wasteful introspection and to ever-tightening spirals into its own aesthetic minutiae.

To pull out of one such spiral, I will sum up by saying: The dichotomy between science and philosophy is false. The search for truth can’t be distinguished from the search for the good and meaningful. If we look for the truth we’ll find meaning; if we don’t, we should question our methods of looking for the truth.

One of the greatest problems in philosophy is the pressure to publish. This produces a lot of A) crap and B) specialists producing for other specialists. But look - it’s about power as well. Scientists predict stuff and produce technology. Artists can live good lives even if they can’t make good livings. What can philosophers do?

It’s like jazz. Jazz was real art until it was co-opted by academia. Now it exists more as a flavor than as a meal. Philosophy helps smart people be smarter but is of little use to many of the dolts who write it. As for living well… as with art, being a successful professional is no guarantee of a good life or of anything else. But living well is an art with a much broader scope than philosophy.

But it’s still about language, as painting is about paint.

Rhetoric is about logic of language, not necessarily all or even most of what makes philosophy Faust. You’ve let your own limited scope drown out the rest of philosophy.

If I look at two objects, observing similarity, a sense of beauty and danger, profit and use… without thinking a word, it would disqualify as philosophy. If Cratylus merely pointed, you would either disown it as in philosophical, or make it equivalent to language, despite it not being so.

Arguments that worked in the 20th century don’t work as well in the 21st, most people don’t receive their philosophy background from academics, but on their own. We aren’t bound to editions pimped by the university professors. We can pursue a much wider scope.

Turd, language doesn’t have to be spoken. It can be an inner dialog, a sequence of thoughts that you have, hell…any set of propositions that describe the world in some way.

No, logic is a sequence of thoughts, but it doesn’t qualify as language, and only some logic is reducable to it. If we define that as language, then very, very primitive life forms have language. Frogs can’t actually say “Bud-wei-ser” and mean it in any sense of the word. Looking at the sun isn’t the linguistic conception of the sun, there is no grammar, or definition. Its perception and memory. Calculating a trajectory doesn’t involve base numbers (numbers proper aren’t even language, that came along differently in a variety of cultures, mammals and birds recognize up to the number 4 naturally).

If language is everything, then it becomes nothing. A whored out, limp, useless term used well beyond any coherent and useful meaning. Linguists will have to find a new name for their field.

Gamer, it seems like you are bathing in a chemical bath of negative Nihilistic emotions! Get out of there…dream, while you still can!

Artist/Scientist Pheno (External Judging)
:male_sign:Scientist/Thinker type (James S. Saint, Tesla)
Slightly skilled at art, highly skilled at scientific things, skilled at philosophy, creative, constructive
:male_sign::female_sign: Artist/Thinker type (Trixie, Leonardo DaVinci)
Skilled at art, moderately skilled at mathematics and scientific things, philosophically gifted, creative, constructive
:female_sign:Artist type
Skilled at art, but not skilled at mathematical or philosophy things

Scholar/Philosopher Pheno (External Judging)
:male_sign: Scholar/Thinker type
A book worm, skilled at philosophy, talented at manipulation and reconstructing ideas, but not raw creativity
:male_sign::female_sign: Politician/Thinker type
Usually a history buff, moderately skilled at philosophy, military tactics and manipulation gifted, creative, poor at mathematics, science and construction
:female_sign:Politician
Skilled at social skills and manipulation, but not much else

Worker/Lover Pheno (Internal Judging)
:male_sign: CEO
Strong willed and loyal towards one’s own goals.
:male_sign::female_sign: Manager
Good at leading and organizing, terrible at philosophy. Judges internally, measures other against herself, rather than herself against others.
:female_sign: Worker
Skilled at social skills, but not much else

Anything I thought I knew so potently as to call truth has ultimately turned out to be a shard. Useful, inspiring, ego boosting - but none of it the ultimate key to life, meaning, or happiness.

The most impressive things I know I simply had the awareness to extract from my experiences over time. Simple sounding things. Like how to bounce back after a blow, what it feels like to persevere, how to take things in stride, how to appreciate other people, and how to mentally prepare for important opportunities. Learning how to drink up the heady impressions of experience. I don’t call these things truths (wisdom maybe), I just feel them with unmistakable confidence.

But before I had much experience, I turned to philosophy. I just felt like there was more to life than what the people around me at that time were preoccupied with. My philosophical investigations broadened my awareness, turned the familiar into the arrestingly unfamiliar - to be seen with wide new eyes.

“It is something to be able to paint a particular picture, or to carve a statue, and so to make a few objects beautiful; but it is far more glorious to carve and paint the very atmosphere and medium through which we look. To affect the quality of the day: that is the highest of arts.” ~Henry David Thoreau

And I think this is why, though there is method and logic to doing philosophy or history (like any art), they are humanities subjects, not science. It is about the power of ideas and ideologies to birth and upend fundamental paradigms. What is the value of this?

Good? (Snickers)

I’ve always associated philosophy with the ‘how to’ aspect of being as Science is the ‘what is’.

Example - science shows us advanced technology, that is the what is.

Philosophy would show us ‘how to’ use that advanced technology. Not literally, since science shows us how to build it and have it, but in the sense of being able to use it in a manner of not causing negative ripples of influence that does have an indirect or direct cause on the planet and its inhabitants.

The difference between being smart and being morally good is like the difference between being smart and being a good physicist. If you consistently do bad things, it’s because you lack some understanding, or are acting in conflict with what you understand. Right from wrong is a subject one can know a lot or a little about, like any other subject, and being smart helps.

The wealthy and powerful decide what is wrong, good for everybody else all the while pretending their own judgements are somehow objective. Of course concerning their own constant atrocities against the rest of the world they justify with the usual righteous indignation where being that they create morality and ethics for everybody else they thus become immune to fall susceptible under them themselves which they author or tailor.

Wow, i enjoyed reading that stuff. Thanks.

By applying reason, and the courage to see and think clearly,
you can arrive at a functional way to countenance reality without going nuts.
Science hasn’t done this for me.

Perhaps you are just not listening when it answers correctly?

Philosophy is a much wider spectrum than science and art. If you can’t distinguish the fruit from the dirt, you shouldn’t expect to get a healthy meal out of it.

Science merely limits thought to some of the easier things. Science is about thoughts that can be shown to be “not false”. Science can’t really tell you if they are true. It takes proper philosophy for that.

If you don’t know how to read scriptures, how long is going to be before you give up on finding answers there? If you don’t know how to read mathematics, how long will it be before you give up looking for answers there? If you don’t know how to read Science articles, how long will it be before you give up on Science?

And if you don’t know how to discern truth, how long will it be before you give up looking for it?

Philosophy is not about being smart, nor good. It is about being wise.

So being bad would be a failure of one’s rational abilities? Does this mean you see no one as essentially bad or evil? There cannot be someone who, for example, likes to see others suffer? And in this example, not because of there sense that the other person deserves to suffer, but rather simply as a pure experience without any moral or ethical justification. I think there are such people. If you think there are not, then I can try to convince you of that. If you think there are, then do you see these people as also make a rational error?

It is wisdom, the how to, or even what should.

The difference is contraindicated by the negative science has imposed on ethics. The transcendence demanded by ethical considerations cuts across temporal domains, hence it is a mistake to use differential logic here. It is basic logic of similarity that is being sustained, even within the realms of analysis of meaning, the structural basis of which is undeniable. Since structural ethics pre -empts such differential negations, categorical holding does and should retain significance. Hence being smart and good are non differential conceptions. A man has to be smart to be good, and he has to be good to become smart.

The qualification of being smart,qua knowledge, is not what’s exclusively what’s at stake here. It is more like having smarts linked to humanistic and social determinants, in terms possessing structural, culturally repetitive, and sustained, non temporally
specific meanings.

Philosophy is defined as the love of wisdom so then from
this perspective intelligence matters more than morality