If so, why? If not, why not?
This question has been irking me lately and I’m wondering what others here think.
It’s selfish, I wouldn’t necessarily call it immoral… It creates pain in loved ones and alleviates pain for the suicidee. I guess the morality of suicide could be a function of whether more pain is caused than alleviated…
That would certainly be the utilitarian way of looking at it at least.
It does obviously focus on the self over others.
But let’s strip the act to its essence for a second and assume the agent has no loved ones. In that case, would you say it’s ok?
In that case, I would say its OK. I would say its not wise… And killing yourself prematurely could prevent you from potentially reaching happiness in the future… but I guess I think the individual should have the power over his/her own body. The individual committing the suicide should be able to decide what is best for him/her. And even tho I might be right in trying to stop him, (consider that I know for a fact there are happy times ahead)… I have no right stop him/her. Because, if I am wrong, because I am not quite able to understand what the individual is going through, and my thwarting of his/her suicide ends up causing significantly more pain through life… I have done more harm than good. And I have done this harm unfairly.
If I am right about the happy times ahead and the suicide happens… harm is done to the individual. However, this harm is fair since the individual decided to commit it. However, if I don’t let the individual chose, and I do stop him, and that causes harm through a painful life… that harm is unfair since I caused it.
Even if, on average, I was right more often than wrong… the unjust harm done to the individuals I was wrong about is enough to warrant the same treatment for all. Hence labeling suicide ethical.
What do you think?
Like most things, it is situational. For the young/healthy it is unethical/immoral. For the aged/infirm it is perfectly ethical/moral.
Usually I don’t take any (positive) interest in moral questions as I find most ethical isms detesible at some level. Yes, sometimes including even my usual, situationist pragmatism. Most of the time, and if it doesn’t directly affect me or people I care about, I really can’t be bothered with how people choose to live. (Adult citizens should have the level of maturity and insight to behave politely and so on; if they don’t I they deserve none of my respect. If they for whatever reason have kids and if these don’t get a proper upbringing, they deserve even less of it.) But how they choose to die is different.
In that case, if by “ok” you mean “morally acceptable”, I would. Life may very well actually be the worse alternative. It depends though. a) If the act is committed as a means to escape responsibility, or at least punishment, for a heinous crime or to get out of massive debt or something, I would find it all but acceptable. Still I wouldn’t go so far as to hinder it. b) In case the agent does have loved ones and has no obligation to care for them (like a parent of young children), as well as having no outstanding massive debts and no criminal sentence, then, as the selfish bastard I am I would probably find it if not “acceptable” then at least not comdemnible. It is, much like svettypoo says, not my business at all. Generally, one shouldn’t have to live merely for others and especially not if one is elderly, mortally ill or mentally tortured yet capable of making “autonomous” decisions.
(Youth and health have nothing to do with it in my view – at most, unless I hade some sort of insight into their problematic, I’d question their judgment. But that’s it. If it were a loved one or someone otherwise close, I would just have to find a way to accept the fact.)
This also seems like a good time to say I have no problem with euthanasia. In fact, I endorse it.
This is an interesting view and I’m curious how you would justify it… I don’t see how the same action could transform from moral to immoral based on one’s age and health alone.
As I understand it, suicide is a crime in many states in the US. I have no idea how such a crime, if successful, could ever be prosecuted, however.
This chestnut, in all circumstances no, obviously.
Paris Hilton found choked on her own vomit after an overdose though? Come on who’s with me? 
Well it can only if you don’t succeed but usually isn’t as clearly being serious about killing yourself, or just a cry for attention, obviously means you need psychological help.
In some crimes the deterrent is there only to determine the morality of such an act, not to be enforcible, of course the morality is subjective as in cases like assisted suicide, when quality of life is unbearable and there is no likelihood of remittance.
When you are young, you are in a subordinate role. You are below your parents within the familial hierarchy so to kill yourself would be disrespecting your parents by giving them both emotional and material harm. On the other hand, when you are older and being supported by your family choosing to kill yourself frees them of the obligation to support you. Additionally, your position in the hierarchy has shifted to the point where you can do with yourself as you please because of the direction in which obligation flows.
Actually, sometimes killing yourself might save your parents substantial money…
Money over emotion?
I think any good parent would trade there child’s death for millions? This is not a valid argument? We cannot put a price on the life of a loved one.
Obligation does not work that easily. It is not just about a few people, the act is selfish because unless you were a loner who forsook all relations or had none, people will be harmed. Is it right? It does depend… You can’t put it just down to obligation, this is not that simple. I guess you know that?
Of course, I agree with you.
However, I’m not sure the parents suffering is more important than the suicidal’s suffering. Let’s say a 30 year old person hated life for the last ten years, and spent the whole time wretchedly miserable and wanting to die to relieve the pain. After such an extended period of suffering, shouldn’t good parents possibly decide that their son relieving his suffering (sorry, I’m using a male example here) is the morally right action here, over protracting his suffering for their sake?
On the flip side, if the suicidal person continues to live, the suicidal person is being harmed, badly. For, like Hume, I don’t think anyone wants to die unless they are in extraordinary pain.
Yeah here we go into cases where the line becomes blurred. Is suicide always wrong, of course not. Sometimes it is as it may be, but we have to be really careful in noting the difference between someone who’s quality of life will never change and someone who is clearly disturbed in the short term. I suffered with depression for 18 years, I would seriously hate if when I did commit suicide it succeeded, given what I know now. I had a physiological disorder little understood and untreated. I am glad I never killed myself when I tried, how do we judge if others might feel the same years on? 18 years of suffering and now I am so glad I lived. How can you judge?
And how do we judge the fickleness of pain? We have to say that extraordinary pain I think is pain that suffers little or no chance of ever getting any better. This is only the case I think in morbid life and diseases that will simply never change. Assisted suicide seems moral, but how can we judge a life yet lived by a short period? Should we shoot Van Gogh for being manic depressive? Einstein’s daughter for being likewise? Where does the line begin? Some people learn to cope. We cannot just say eternal hell is on a short moment or even one of years. this is such a profound question, because sometimes someone can suffer for years and yet get over it with perseverance. It’s only those who will never get over their pain, that I can condone the final solution to. And yet I do not seek to judge those who have no other answer, I have been there. It would be hypocritical to do so.
Well… I too am very glad you didn’t. Glad you are still here!
That said, I don’t think it necessarily follows from a possible regret that it would be immoral to do it. Unfortunate, maybe, if eventually there happiness to be found. I’m glad I never tried heroine because it could really have fucked up my life and killed me young, but I’m not sure that makes it immoral to have done it, for example. On the other hand, there is certainly a moral problem since suicide is, in most cases, going to cause pain and suffering for loved ones. It’s definitely a blurry line, as you said.
This may seem too black and white or redundant but for me:
A. If the person is convinced for whatever reason that they should kill themselves, it is not immoral. See point B.
B. If however the reason to commit suicide is to deliberately cause harm /pain/ suffering / distress to others, then it’s probably immoral.
Well I am glad I am here to. And yes immoral is troublesome. Of course.