I’m going to keep this open and not try to bog it down with too many assumptions, just let the discussion take its own course. But, consider the following concepts of freewill, omniscience and any other label that you may associate with ‘god.’ I’ve been in so many of these with essentially no progress made, but never here in this forum.
cnn.com/2011/US/01/18/south. … index.html
Was the death of the woman the will of god?
there have been far more tragic things to occur in the past…also why are you asking believers if it was God’s plan…are you actually wondering what the answer is?
the will of God is to love others as yourself- to live a happy and good life etc etc…going around and looking for tragic events to blame on him is not apart of his plan though
God bless
-hth
also…it could have been the will of God…what’s your point- would that be evil? if so why? if God wants something to happen to me- we may interpret it as tragic after its occurrence- that does not mean God wanted it to happen because it is tragic lol
God bless
-hth
If I may inject an analogy here, I would like to liken God’s Prominence in this issue to that of a large pond if you will. All along the bank are the people of the world with pebbles in their hands tossing them into the water to represent their actions. Ripples from one collides with another and so on. Those ripples are decisions and actions that affect directly while others indirectly.
In a sense those ripples are representative to ‘free will’. Some of those ripples cause suffering, pain, joy, disaster…it’s not hard to follow from there. Those ripples chaotically are the result of man (for the most part) going about their lives while not letting God’s Will intervene. In the very few that do follow God’s Will their ripples may radiate out in perfect harmony, but the chaotic ripples soon overtake them.
Every one in awhile God places a thought, small interference or in the case say…Moses, He really intervenes (God throwing His own pebble so to speak). If Pharaoh had listened to Moses words (which was influenced by God) all of the suffering the people of Egypt would have been abated. But as the Bible relates Pharaoh refused several times and brought disaster to his people. God tossed a few pebbles to counter Pharaoh’s back bowing. Thus finally resulting the release of the Jewish people from bondage.
This part of the harmonious ripples in that section of the pond was short lived when the Jewish people strayed from God’s Will. Thus it is written the chosen people of God wandered in the wilderness for forty years until a generation or two of people died off and finally made it to their promised land. The ‘free will’ the Jewish people exploited brought God’s Wrath upon them after He had performed all of those miracles. People with short or selective memories will often stray they lose sight of God’s Directive. Then their ripples cause chaotic patterns which affect others and so on down the line.
When people don’t act harmoniously with God, the pond will always be in disarray. If they would throw their pebbles in uniformity as per God’s Gudance, then the suffering, starvation and evil acts would cease. If this is viewed as a form of slavery, it would be much preferred with having love and a good life with friends and family. We are slaves to one thing or another. Why not be a slave to love and goodness and alleviate pain and suffering while interact with one another? I view somewhat like following a recipe. If you don’t divert from known good directions, then a good product will always be the end result.
I didn’t intend this analogy to come of from a preaching standpoint. This is the best was I could try to convey my point about “The Will of God”.
Sorry, I should have been a lot clearer looking back at my original post.
What I am really trying to ask is, was the womans death the will of god, was it result of freewill, a random act, etc? This thread is in no way intended to judge whether the will of god is good or evil, justified, etc. Nothing about that at all. But more so was this event, the plane crashing into the trailer and killing the woman on the couch, a direct result of god’s will?
Our opinions on this event being good/evil need not apply. I am only referring to the event itself.
True, but I am not concerned about the event itself and not looking to muddy the waters with anything elaborate. This plane crash fits my question well since it is simple and can have a wide range of causes, whether it’s the will of a god, freewill (assuming the crash could have been avoided by way of closer attention paid by the pilot/mechanics/etc), completely random, so on.
No worries. So then this plane crash is a direct result of a godly intervention, rather than say a failure to do a pre-flight inspection on the plane (freewill)? Or in your ripple example, both?
If both, does one supercede the other? (as in, is gods will more important than freewill?)
It would appear mechanical failure was the basis of the accident. To equate it to be “The Will of God” is beyond my knowledge. It is possible a ripple effect could have contributed to the crash. If I had been in Egypt when God was carrying out Pharaoh’s self imposed problems, I would have been as clueless. Why it happened at that particular timeline is only known to God. The chain of events that led up to the plane crash would suggest to me man’s free will would have to been an indirect result of that tragic accident. I don’t think God deemed “Yes, let the plane crash and cause the deaths”.
God’s Will to me is wanting us as humans to aspire to reighteousness of the spirit. It could be something as innocuous as someone suddenly feeling a deep love for someone else, or what happened to Paul in the Bible. God found Paul (Saul before he turned to God’s Will) to be a vessel to help promote His Word to people. Then ‘Saul’, told God he didn’t want to become an agent of God. Saul then was one of biggest Christian haters of his time. God struck Saul blind and told him he could stay that way or He would heal him so he could become an apostle. God gave Saul the free will to decide which direction to take. Though God dealt with Sual directly, he did give him the choice to make. He chose to follow God, got his eyesight back to become one of God’s most devout followers. In essence, God turned a sow’s ear into a silk purse. So, Saul became a new man in the Eye’s of The Lord and was given the name of Paul to set the covenant
God’s WIll is an indomitable affair when He so deems. Every sentient creature God has created was given the gift of ‘free will’ from the Angels to man so that they might try to strive towards an upright spiritualness. We are captains of our own ship in that regard.
I bring the topic up because it fascinates and infuriates me how people just conjure up ‘the will of god’ to suit their needs. On one hand you have people screaming that abortion is a direct opposition to the will of god since life is a miracle and becoming pregnant is always the will of god. But then if that same baby is born 8 1/2 weeks early it is placed in an incubator and closely monitored instead of dying. Apparently getting pregnant is the will of god, but a baby being born at a stage where it cannot survive is not the will of god. The icing on the cake is the argument that the technology to save the preemie was also gods will, but that of course never applies to the technology that allows for abortions to take place.
It comes to my mind again now because of some of the threads that have popped up recently. Some of the positions that people have taken on freewill, omniscience, god having a plan for everything and everyone. All of these different arguments have rolled into a focal point of ‘gods will.’ Where people place that line, that which is of the will of their god, that which is of the will own their own, that which is accidental (if accidents even exist, god has a plan for everyone remember).
I don’t expect to have the line clearly determined, or even moderately determined. But I am curious to see the variance of where that line is drawn in general, and in contrasting opinions.
So what does that mean, an indirect result of freewill? I understand what you are trying to say with your ripple concept, that freewill and godwill intermingle, but it still makes the answer very grey to me. Do you feel that the plane was going to crash regardless? Do you feel that the plane crash could have been avoided?
No_body, I can respect your position and opinion concerning this. The few people here in ILP that has claimed a basis of Christianity seem to have different interpretive slants due to their individual beliefs from mine. This further reenforces to me that we of this religion all have a pesonal relationship with God. Never in life would I say I am right (from this point in my life) over even those opinions because I consider my self a poor example of a Christian. I am surprised sometimes about some of the answers here from my Christian brothers/sisters. This is quickly temepered in my mind when I think to myself what God may possibly be thinking about my assessments of their beliefs…as foreign as that may appear.
It pleases me that you want to weigh different ideas of others concerning the ‘Will of God’. It says to me you are thoughtfully considering different points of view even when they seem ridiculous. I try to do the same thing with varying lines of thought. It is the learning experience which I aim at.
You are right about not being able to find a clear answer concerning topics such as these. I certainly can not. One person’s “The WIll of God” will rarely fall on the same page of thinking with another. If one believes in God while another may not, the believer could be as far off base about that “Will” with another believer as well with the non-believer. The best we can do is try our best to understand that concept and refine it’s meaning as we get on in years.
I apologize and should have spent more time on a clarafication on that statement. The ‘free will’ I spoke of dealt with the ripple effect again. Thus, I should have inserted a suppositional explanation which might lend to the crash of the plane. There could have a person who may be grieving over the death of a loved one or someone else who have had a fight with a spouse and so one that could have contributed to a missed damaged part of the plane itself. It is also possible someone could have puposely sabotaged a vital component because a boss may have made that person mad.
Now, I do believe God knew the crash would happen. Very most likely God did not intervene to stop the crash because the ripples that would occur would cause possible spirtual growth in a certain group of of folks who could be directly affected to the event. One or some of those people may not recognize the possible ‘reasoning’ God might want to be known through all of this. I have to give the benefit of the doubt to this thought because I think God has a purpose in this life regardless how one person is or another might not be spiritually.
I appreciate your input on this, Lite. It’s a tricky subject to get into because it really is so difficult to define. That’s likely where a lot of my frustration comes from, that some people find it so easy to define and can do so whimsically. I like your ripple explanation on a conceptual level (not that I intend to mean that it doesn’t go beyond that). It’s easier to work with than trying to figure messy ideas like freewill and omniscience and how they interact with each other.
I wanna post more but I am kinda drunk and have a very long day tomorrow, so I will mull your thoughts over and return sometime in the near future.
oh i see what you mean…well it depends nobody…we do not know if the lady was a believer in God…if she was then it could have been the will of God…if she was at a time of sin then she might have not been protected at that point in time- where as if she was pure of heart at that time she might have been protected by God but even if she was pure of heart it could just have been her time to go…it all really depends on the perspective of her (even though she is no longer here) and maybe her family if they knew her well and knew her to be a believer…i would definitely say that if she was a believer that it was the will of God…but there is no way for us to know if she was a believer…your question is more general than i thought- basically the way i would look at this is as such- when you have a believer- a true believer- he/she will most likely view the things that happen in his/her life as a direct sign from God or as the will of God…the believer wants to and naturally does and views things in this way. as a believer grows he may learn to see that not all things are a direct result from God but that depends on the believer…a believer may have a stronger relationship with God than another believer…the stronger a believers relationship with God the more the believer should already see things comming before they arrive as a relationship with God has supernatural advantages such as this or i should say miracles…a true believer is constantly witnessing miracles. me for instance i love God very much- i have a strong relationship with God- if something bad happens to me i look to see if i was at a time of sin when said occurrence transpired- usually i am- and therefore it is my punishment- does not necessarily mean God punished me- but you must see that lets say you smoke everyday- but every day you bow down to God and ask for forgiveness- you also other than that are a very very good person. now lets say that one day you decide to smoke your usual ciggaretes but on top of that you commit a sin that you never have done before- lets say you cheat on your wife- on your way to the hotel- your tire goes flat- well instead of going back home because God is telling you that you are being bad- you go and get the tire quickly fixed and then you see that you do not have gas money to get to the hotel- but instead of going back home you call the supposed mistress and tell her to come pick you up so that you may go to the hotel. then when you get to the hotel you see a friend of the family but he does not see you- well you decide to make up a story and still proceed into the hotel! and then when you get to the hotel room the key doesnt work so then you call for the hotel guy to come give you another key or something. long story short you have tons of fun and you think you got over- you think it was cool for you to do what you did because you got over and if God truly did not want you to do it then he would have stopped you- but God does not have to stop us- he gives us signs- it is our obligation to listen and see them…well on your way home from cheating you cough out blood go to the doctor and find out that you have stage 3 cancer from smoking.
wow so funny huh- how do you go from feeling no affects of cancer to all of a sudden being told you will die in a month- is it because you did not have cancer and being that you cheated God gave you cancer? no most likely what happened was you had a vice- but you were a great person and God continuously made you healthy through his great power- you had cancer all along but because of God it was not visible to you nor any doctor- no side affects whatsoever- if you would have continued to be good you would have eventually stopped smoking and would have never gotten cancer. but instead you became greedy- you became weak- and you were tempted…God was there the entire time but you ignored his signs…now you are about to die from cancer- once again does this mean that God gave you cancer? what if the amount of smoking that you have been doing would have caused stage 3 cancer long long ago? now you have it after leaving God during your affair…we may then basically say that everything would have been fine when you were with God but when you left him he showed you the power of existence and what existence does to non believers- those that are not protected by God’s miraculous power- for that is what you wanted anyway right? you cheated right? well if you want the pleasures of existence then you must be willing to accept the disadvanteges of existence as well.
now what does the believer do from here…get down on his knees and ask for forgiveness- probably not tell his wife unless he thinks she will somehow find out- but it probably would be best not to tell her because you are about to die and it would only hurt her more…now if you feel like she will find out after you are dead then you should tell her right after you ask for forgiveness from God- but if you do not think she will find out then as i said you should most likely keep it to yourself and deal with the pain and sorrow of that secret by yourself…if what you are doing is righteous then God will probably take your cancer away at least so that you may tell her…the point is a true believer will bow down and cry for forgiveness. a weak believer will become angered and turn away from God even more until the last second of life and out of fear and desperation ask for forgiveness- i do not reccommend that way of course- if it were me i would ask God what i should do and wait for his answer- i would know that if he took away my cancer that it is probably because i am being faithful to him again and also that he wants me to tell my wife what happened. i would probably not tell her though until i was for sure that God wanted me to…sometimes God doesnt want you to hurt people more than they have already been hurt. sometimes he wants you to deal with it between only you and him…the thing that you must remember is that if you have a relationship especially a close one- he will always tell you what you want to know- for a true believer only asks of God that which he knows God would give him…a true believer does not ask God for evil things. that does not mean that God will not give someone evil things though…a believer may ask God to take him out of anger and God might give him a heart attack to show him his errors or God might actually take him- you never know that is why a true believer does not ask God for evil things. remember- be careful what you wish for- so to speak.
so you see there are many ways to look at it from the outside if we do not know the person…the doctor would say he smoked too much and wasnt aware of cancer because of such and such reasons- his wife would say its a tragedy…only he knows the truth of why he has cancer- yes you can say it was because of smoking but what if he wasnt a smoker- what if he was just a really good person that made a mistake but yet ignored God’s signs? well then maybe on his ride home nothing would have happened- maybe he would have never gotten cancer- but then what happens if he finds out that the mistress is crazy and decides to kill his dog and blackmails him for money …the domino affect could be long and far away or it could be quick and direct- either way you never get away with sins when you are a believer- it will always come back in some existential way because in order to sin you needed to choose existence over God- this has direct EXISTENTIAL consequences because you are going from a state where your existence is under the miraculous power of God to a state where it is just normal existence- well how do you think this transition will take place? -in a good way? now way- it may even appear that it was a smooth transition but it never is- you will always lose something- once you make the transition you are open to evil first and that is when the bad things happen- you see existence does not punish non believers but it does punish believers that leave God because they are not normal people- when they make the transition they are taking the supernatural power that they have of God and they are twisting it- it will automatically cause bad things where as someone that does not believe does not have God’s power so when they do bad things nothing happens- there is no domino affect other than what chance brings- but a believer does not go from God’s power directly to chance- he must first go from God’s power to evil and then after that he may go to chance…but a devout devout believer will never leave evil and enter into chance because once he disobeys God he will have other levels of God (lower levels) that will make him feel guilty and sad and depressed so on and so forth so that he will be forced to go back to his higher levels of God…weak believers do not have as many levels of God as strong believers so they are less protected and may enter through evil to chance more easily- if this happens it will almost be impossible for a believer to go back to God because he will biologically and psychologically be different. he will run from the lower levels of God that make him feel guilt and suffering- he will enter into chance through the logic of doubt and will use this as a comfort or sheild from guilt of God.
God bless
-hth
Interesting. Before I go on I want to state that in my mind there is no ‘right answer’ to my question, so I’m not here to attack or refute or anything of that likeness.
But
How do you apply your position to situations that are a bit more… obvious in their destructive nature? My biggest hang up with the whole concept of “god’s will” is that it seems to me that it would be constant. And from everything I’ve ever been told to believe, read on my own, so on… god has a plan for everything. A goal. A goal, simply by way of definition, means that there is a final point and god is going to reach that final point. I can’t process this idea when it starts to come in the form of obviously terrible events, such as murder suicides, priests molesting/raping children, cancer, world wars, so on.
The response that I generally see is that god is attempting to guide people back to him (I was raised christian so I just say him). However, if you apply the omnicience tag to god, as I was essnetially raised to believe, there seems to be no point in any of these ‘guiding’ events. Since god knows whether or not the person will eventually choose to believe/follow because of said event, why create the hardship? The love is apparently stronger than I can ever comprehend, yet horrors inhabit the planet on a daily basis.
Now I understand that this is dipping very deep into the well of complexities because there is a lot more to it than this, but the overall concept to me seems basic on a functional level. I simply cannot understand the working relationships of god having a plan, god having will, god having eternal love for all of us, horrible things happening on a daily basis, god knowing whether or not those horrible things are even going to change a person. I mean, for me, North Korea starting a nuclear war isn’t something that is going to convert me back to the light (hypothetical situaion, obviously).
I guess what I am trying to say is that god needs to cut to the fucking chase. Really. On a conceptual level anyway.
I’m looking over my post and it seems to have lost direction, so I’ll just end here. Thank you for your input, Lite. My gears will keep grinding away at it.
HTH, your post is very… interesting. There is a lot I don’t agree with, but that isn’t the point of this thread so no need to go into all that. But if you’ll have them, I’d like to ask a few questions.
The way you describe god and the workings of god, the signs and what not. If the signs are not successful in drawing a person closer to god, is that the person’s fault or god’s fault? I suspect that you’re going to say it’s the fault of the person, but wasn’t Jesus sent to save the wicked? I guess what I am getting at is that you seem to have the position that the weak will move away from god and ignore the signs, but wouldn’t god know that beforehand and double the efforts to draw the weak back in?
Your cancer story is very complex, but it gives the feel of a one way street. God gives the signs and everyone is supposed to see them and follow accordingly. Yet if they do not do so, god is in no way responislbe for the shortcomings, even though god is the one who made the signs. Humans are restricted by capacity, god is not. But it seems as if you’re saying there is a standard that a person has to meet in order to be in the grace of god, which goes against a lot of what I was taught in regards to the miracle surrounding the death of Christ.
(Just FYI, I was christian for roughly 15 years and am now atheist. I’m not saying that matters at all in regards to the discussion, but I am blurring a bunch of lines I think, so I don’t want to confuse you)
no atheist was ever a true believer- it is impossible for a true believer to become an atheist (something atheists have a very hard time understanding- entering into evil or chance because of temporary sin is not the same as giving up belief in God and responsibility). i’ve been a catholic my entire life- over 20 years and went to catholic school pretty much my entire life until i attended pennstate i was also an altar boy when i was younger and started serving funerals around the age of 8.
yet you are still mentioning disagreements and yet still not providing disproof accordingly, very well
why are you speaking of God’s kowledge or judging what God knows? you are only a human and an atheist at that so what would possibly make you think you can judge what God does or does not think? more importantly if God is all knowing why would he have to think?
quite possibly, but it depends how weak (remember without God we are nothing- existence itself is weak- it is imperfect- humans are blessed to have perfection within them so that we may judge and see clearly). of course for an atheist it will always be true unless they, through God’s love realize their errors.
maybe you were taught incorrectly…Jesus’ main message was love that is a standard within itself- he gave the eleventh commandment- a standard- the beatitudes- a standard- turn the other cheek- a standard…another example from Jesus and i quote, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
therefore i am not quite sure what you mean by saying true believers do not have standards- is that not why you became an atheist? it is the atheist that does not have standards not the believer
…anyway…you went too far in on a flaw from reading my statements…the story says that he ignores the signs…even addresses your very thought process when i mention that God does not have to stop us- that it is our responsibility to listen to the signs that he gives us…it is the power of free will that allows us to ignore God- but no matter what we will know that he is telling us what he wants- it is us that must ignore it in order to proceed with our sins. God is more than fair and gives us many chances to turn from sin as the story shows- he ignored the signs because all he cared about was having the affair. that is not God’s fault- he loves us so much that he allows us to disobey him- the gift of free will- God gives the greatest of love possible within existence
God bless
-hth
No-body, you have raised some serious questions. I’m going to mull this over in my mind for a bit and try to give a helpful explanation from my perspective by tonight. You may not realize it, but the questions you raise are quite beneficiary to me as well. The response I make will require some introspection on my part and hopefully be aided with God’s temperate help.
This is the one way street I am talking about. It’s all on us. We choose to move away, we fail to see the signs, we fall into evil. God is in no way accountable for our actions. That is what seems strange to me.
God knows everything, god knows what is going to happen, god has the power to influence and direct, god loves us all more than we can understand. Yet millions upon millions of people have ‘left’ god for whatever reason. It seems to me that god isn’t doing a very good job of posting signs, creating scenarios in people’s lives, etc. So something is falling short, either in the description of what god is capable of or in how much god actually cares.
In the relationship between god and man, man is responsible for all of the outcomes even though man is the one who is entirely limited in capacity. The power of god is limitless and seems to be squandered.
This is the second time I’ve been told this and I find it very interesting. It seems to imply a quantification of belief. I ‘believed’ in god as much as anyone else I knew, prayed sincerely, felt god’s presence, so on. Either I believed in god and all of those things were real, or I never believed in god and all of those things I felt were not real, just constructs within my mind.
I found the will of God in my attic the other day. Imagine my surprise when I found he’d left me two planes of Hell and a nice condo in Elysium.
If by some fluke I may accidently come by the right answer (possibly 10 to the 100^), the most devout faithful Christian probably might not see it as such (unless God makes it so). So in this regard I can appreciate anyone’s scepticism.
My thought is things have been set into motion like throwing a spinning top from one’s hand. Whatever it comes into contact with is how it will react. If someone would take that as a ‘God’s Will’ situation, I would be hard pressed to dispute it since I could not find a valid refutable point to substanstiate that claim. This falling into the category of storms, earthquakes, floods…etc. If I accept that God created this universe (and I do) those events would just be that is the nature of things.
Let’s take the Great Flood Noah and what his family prepared for. God knew there would be a calamitous destructive force about too happen. Was God the direct influence in this disaster? I don’t think so. Whatever forces that were engaged to cause it were just known by God, so he prompted Noah and his family to build an Ark to house various creatures of the earth to be saved within it’s confines. For all of those years while Noah labored on the Ark, people would make fun of his as he and his family built it. He tried to convince others that God told him of the impending danger, but they didn’t listen. Noah put his faith in what God had told him and stood true.
In reference to people harming others, I believe evil was the reason for those atrocities. God warns of succmbing to the flesh. The Catholic church recognized these in a comprehensive list:
ENVY
SLOTH
GLUTTONY
WRATH
PRIDE
LUST
GREED
Any one of these are dangerous to the spirit. No one good or bad is safe from that list. I know I have personally commited each one of those at one point in my life through the years. The trick is not to keep commiting those ugly ripples in our lives so we may have closer ties with God so it won’t adversely affect others in our lives as well. The first to and not to list as you know was given to Moses for everyone to follow was The Ten Commandments. Though it was bestowed to the Jewish people as a guide, it certainly reflects upon other peoples of the earth.
What we as humans consider as good and bad things is the fabric that hopefully will weave into a fine tapestry of spirituality that ultimately will give us a place with God in the hereafter. For as anything we do as we get on in years, hopefully we will refine the fabric into something beautiful.
The best answer I can give on this is I believe before God created humankind He made the angels…all with free will. All capable of wonderous things (I can not prove this one way or another. This is what I gleaned from hearing the Word and reading the Scriptures. I can not site anything specifically regarding this assumption) being agents and instruments of God. We humans are also agents and instruments of God. That is not to say we don’t have the option to wield our will as we feel, it’s just how we do it that makes the difference. Our direction is laid out as God would like for us to follow, it is up to us to recognize that potential. Living here on earth often influences how we make these decisions. Sometimes we may feel slighted by a family member, or want to try to take a shortcut in something without using the correct process for completion. Such as making bread without yeast or tightening a fastener on an assembly line in a factory. The list is obviously innumerable. God wants to follow direction to the letter like we would expect a waiter to get our order right for a meal. If they mess it up, then we don’t feel obligated to tip them. It’s either that or leave a nice tip with a note of thanks so that person might make the same mistake.
Love is a strong paradigm for all to aspire to. If we all could look beyond ourselves, then most likely there would be less human inflicted pain in this world As odd as this sounds, evil is largely responsible for bad actions. I believe that evil is manifested by satan though whatever wile he desires. It is his aim to keep us from God do to his jealous nature. He envies our relationship with God because we can potentially attain grace with Him in our lives here on earth and the afterlife. The devil is a real force to be reckoned with. He has all the time in the world to wheedle his designs upon us.
I think the thing that makes it complex because the world is so diverse. The shades of gray in personal truths is almost infinite. Understanding a working relationship with God can be simple if acquiesce to God’s desire for us. It can be argued that we then become slaves. We are slaves to one thing or another. Maybe that is why when slavery is mentioned in the Bible by either Jesus or God it is another type of hierarchal connection like boss and employee in thier reasoning. Whether we are a master or slave, boss or employee, we need be the best at one or the other under God’s discerning eye. For if we are good in either relationship, then only good thingd can happen.
Concerning God cutting to the chase, things have to happen in their own time (Ecclesiastes 3 1-7). If we are made in no other manner but to do a certain thing, how can we grow spiritually? Soil needs to worked to provide growth of life giving fruits and vegetables. We are not much different than agriculture. Our works here on earth is the crucible for which God determines that growth. If we produce good fruits, then we are worthy of being harvested spiritually. LIke anything good, it takes work on our part to make it so.
these statements of yours contradict themselves. how could you claim that God is in no way accountable right after admitting that he gives us signs in the first place?
well if you are trying to involve math you have no point…there are statistically more believers than non believers…also i have already addressed that no atheist was ever a true believer.
and yet another contradiction- i thought you just admitted that God gives us signs? you can not claim a two-way street (God creates signs) and then go back to a one-way street (God is in no way accountable) …this is trivial, do you think no one would easily notice this?
im very happy that you find these things interesting but you also must realize that your responses are inadequate- this statement above would thus be false, based on what i have told you…no atheist may ever claim to have been a true believer. a true believer stays a believer forever- he is saved and no amount of existential influence can move the protection given to him. no true believer may become an atheist. atheists wish very much for this to be true because they are desperate to feel that they have made the right decision…of course the only way they could have made the right decision is for there to have been a decision in the first place. but once someone declares atheism that person could never have been a true believer in the eyes of the true believer therefore there never truly was a decision…no matter how much one fooled themself into thinking they were as the true believer, the fact that one is now an atheist and the fact that this supposed true believer is still a true believer is the very difference that sets one as infinitely different from the true believer…those that are filled with doubt would be tortured if trying to have faith in God…that is why one becomes an atheist…because of the fact that you were never a true believer- you then always had doubt no matter how little and for you it was enough to make you a non believer- from then on it was only a matter of time before you could not take the torture anymore and submit to atheism- this does not happen to true believers- it is impossible (the fact that millions of people have done this is irrelevant being that millions more do not)
God bless
-hth
Wait, I thought God’s will was to allow us to learn from each other’s mistakes - you know, so [it] can side step that whole favoritism situation.
blame/praise god is so confusing? 