Is violence ever morally justifiable to restore dignity in conditions of extreme passive coercion?

I came up with a thought experiment to reach the limits of reason, to bring to light what I consider a very important problem.
Is violence justified in matters of dignity, or lack thereof?

~-~- Scenario 1 : The Island Thought Experiment ~-~-

Imagine we place two humans on a remote island, Cain and Abel. The island yields only a tiny supply of food, just enough for one person to survive indefinitely.
They come to realize this and scramble to acquire as much food as possible. A few days later, they’ve picked all the food on the island and despite having put in equal effort, Cain has accumulated two weeks’ worth of food, while Abel was lucky enough to find a month’s worth of provisions, purely by chance.

Cain decides to make a proposal to Abel: “If we unite our strengths, we can make a large net and catch fish. Together we can catch fish efficiently and quickly, allowing us both to survive and thrive.”

Abel answers, “Yes, that’s a good idea, and I’m all for it. It would allow me to enjoy more free time and have an easier life on this island. But first you have to give me all the food you have. Moreover, you won’t be allowed to store any food for yourself; you’ll only be allowed to have the minimum necessary for survival, and I’ll take all the excess produce.”

Cain says, “That’s unfair! I had the idea! We are both equals and each of us put in equal time and effort!”

Abel thinks to himself, “I have more food than him. I can decide not to cooperate, and eventually, he’ll die of hunger before me because he has less food. Once he’s dead, I’ll survive just fine. He has no choice but to accept. I have the upper hand.”

Abel replies, “Cain, think of this as free trade. In any market, those with more resources can offer better terms. I’ve put in more effort and accumulated more food, which puts me in a position to make you a deal. By giving me your food and allowing me to manage our resources, I’m taking on the risk and responsibility for our survival. In return, you stand to benefit from the efficiency and productivity of our joint efforts. This is how a capitalist economy works: those who invest more get more in return. There’s nothing unfair about it; it’s about recognizing the value each of us brings to the table. If we cooperate under these terms, we both stand to gain more in the long run.”

Cain gets closer to Abel, then picks up a rock and says, “Yes, but I have this dangerous rock in my hand, and if we don’t split equally, something bad may happen. It’s my responsibility to ensure your safety.”

Abel starts sweating and responds with an alarmed tone, “But… you’re threatening me with violence!”

Cain replies, “Dear Abel, your cooperation is in the public interest; it’s for the greater good, and you ultimately benefit from it. It’s part of the social contract to which you implicitly consented by virtue of existing here. Given your initial behavior was anti-social, from this moment on, I’ll hold the monopoly on violence.”

Ending 1

Faced with Cain’s argument and the rock, Abel agrees to split equally, and they lived “happily” ever after.

Ending 2

Abel, fueled by desperation, anger, and the loss of dignity, decides to fight. He charges at Cain but is immediately fatally injured by the rock, and quickly succumbs.

~-~- Scenario 2 : Two Countries During Famine ~-~-

Instead of two individuals, imagine two countries sharing a grain field, both dependent on it as their sole source of food. During a famine, half the population of PoorCountry faces death unless they cooperate with RichCountry on a megaproject to boost food production. This project can only be achieved through the joint efforts of both countries.

In this situation, if PoorCountry’s population were to disappear, RichCountry would fare just fine through the famine. And vice versa. During negotiations, RichCountry (the less desperate country) demands that PoorCountry surrender all territory and that its population become perpetual slaves, along with all their descendants, in perpetuity.

~-~- Questions~-~-

  • Does PoorCountry, which loses by default if no cooperation is established, have a right to start a war?
  • Does it change anything that it’s two countries and not two individuals?
  • For the two individuals, who is in the right, Cain or Abel?
  • Given that Abel lets Cain live, can it be said that Cain is greedy and not content with what he has been offered?
  • Does Cain have a duty to accept Abel’s unfair offer?
  • Does Cain have a right to refuse Abel’s offer, wait two weeks for his supplies to run out, and then resort to violence, given that he’s in a life-or-death situation?
  • Does Abel have a duty to grant dignity to Cain?
  • Does Cain have a right to use violence to restore his dignity?
  • If there were hidden cameras on the island and both Cain and Abel were brought in front of a court (in the case of Ending 1), or only Cain (in the case of Ending 2), how should they be judged?
    • Right now, I think that in Ending 1, Cain would be charged with coercion, extortion, and threats of violence.
    • In Ending 2, Cain would be charged with manslaughter or murder.
    • Would you legislate differently? Would you make passive coercive power (one where you win by doing nothing) an offense?

Ending 3 for Cain & Abel:

Cain declines Abel’s counter-offer without picking up a rock, and when Abel no longer happens upon resources by chance, and is next to starving because he won’t do any work himself, he accepts Cain’s original offer, and both live cooperatively ever after.

Ending 3 for the countries… and it also has a brother thing going on, too:

Genesis 41-Exodus 1:7. The rich country was kind to the people who were indebted to them. It wasn’t until there was a new king who was unfamiliar with these brothers that they treated the people poorly. But he got spanked, so it has a happy ending. Well, I mean, there were sad parts about the ending, and not all of the happy stuff stayed happy because the people forgot what it was like to be slaves (and how they were freed) and started “lording it” over other people. History repeats because God is a patient teacher.

I’m not sure that’s guaranteed to be a forever thing. I mean, if you tell people they’re forgiven, but they refuse it and keep doom spiraling…what more can you do for them?

Violence should always be a last resort, but under extreme situations I can see where violence can be justifiable. Extreme pacifism can be self harmful and destructive a great deal of times. It’s one of the reasons I can never call myself a pacifist. Peace and harmony should always be what people thrive for as the highest ideal but we must be on guard from those who wish to take that all away, those kinds of people are not reasonable where they only understand one kind of language. [Violence]

What happens when you take violence out of the pool of probabilities?

To understand we must understand what respect is.
No fear…no respect.

We respect what we fear can withhold from us something he value.
Our life?
A teacher’s guidance?
A friend’s support?
A child’s promise?
A lover’s presence?

Fear is the foundation of respect…

What happens when fear is diminished?
We become cynical and entitled…we respect nothing and nobody.

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I think we respect and fear in a good way (revere) the sort of power that only becomes violent to protect others who don’t disrespect others—to protect them against people who disrespect others—the sort of power that respects others not from fear, but because disrespecters are as valuable as respecters and are not actively disrespecting others. That sort of power allows disrespecters, and those who coddle them, a chance to learn from their poor choices. That sort of power does not help without being asked… and knows when asking is really asking… and when help is really needed, and won’t stunt growth… and when violence will help more than it hurts. When we are like badly healing broken legs, sometimes we have to be re-broken in order to fix us.

Those who cannot inspire respect, seek it through collectives…through proxies.
They feel empowered when they are included into a protective whole.

This is what the god of Abraham represents. A collective whole…the precursor of Marxism and Postmodernism is Abrahamism.

ohhhhh so THAT’s why they all stayed true to the gospel despite being rejected by the religious rulers, governments, their own synagogues and families… most of them being martyred, if not exiled.

Those who are disrespected are often born in a situation that they cannot influence, and as soon as they do something about it, idiots like Spengler come along and try to push them down again. Look at his face. Doesn’t it invite a punch?

Socialism and Communism came about when people who had previously lived under a Landlord who took their produce off them for a pittance, ran to the factories to better their lot. The problem was that the conditions and the work were worse, and they couldn’t return. Slowly, people started recognising that this wasn’t how it had to be and started organising themselves, forming democratic unions, and gaining a voice that could challenge the powers that be.

Despite the garbage that you and others spout about socialism, it is about standing up and doing something instead of lying down to be beaten. Your self-centred egotism makes me sick!

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Yuor reaction exposes your trauma.

There you are…another collectivism masking as an objective thinker.

Nothing you said contradicts what I said…Weakness seeks power in collectives.

This is why some species herd, or fish school or birds flock.
Safety…in numbers.

Speaking a language … reveals your collectivist desire to extinguish childhood trauma of being ignored by mother, doesn’t it, Silenus?

Or was it father?

There, there.

We’re all listening.

:joy:
Oh dear…try again.

Ignored?
Me?
I’ve never been ignored…sweetie.

I’m gonna not ignore you even harder now.

If only you could…what a pleasure it would be.

I try, but I cannot be ignored…deary.
I speak the truth to liars…how can they ignore it?

By all means… you have the power:

Click on my profile pic twice, say “There’s no place like home” and select ignored:

Been not-so-nice knowin ya!

Bye…for the umpteenth time.
May it last longer then the previous ones.
:folded_hands:

Yes. I don’t know anything about him tbh. But something about his face feels juicy like ripe for the punching. Idk. This is my objective and unbiased opinion.

In another thread he says he is a socialist, so you may want to calm yourself.

Naturally, humans organize in groups for more power. This is not novel or new.

No he represent absolute Authoritarianism. It is Jesus that represents the Kollective. The Abrahamic God represents an alpha male, absolute Patriarch masculine male copied from Zeus.

Such an old world barbarian perspective.

Love can create respect as well.

For example if an artist puts 5 years of work into a masterpiece and you respect them for it.

Another example of respect, conscientious respect of consent, like if someone has a request they would like you to respect, and you respect it out of conscientiousness and respect for consent.

Probably even more types of respect than that.

@phitero i’m muting this thread because of these jokers. Sorry if I don’t see any of your replies to my replies to your OP… bye. Welcome to the zoo.

Wasn’t it the very Roman and Italian proverb that a single stick will break easily but a bundle of wood tied together is unbreakable? Collectivism is stronger than individualism will ever be. Aren’t you always rallying against the decadent forms of radical individualism?