Islam: Justified fear and hate?

I’m not making any such assumptions. I don’t fear the extremists - they make their beliefs and positions known and can be much more easily debated and fought. Moderates on the other hand, like the Christian moderates in America that have poisoned and polluted all kinds of legislation over the years to “justify” discrimination and the denial of individual rights to minorities that didn’t appeal to them… they’re the ones that I’m uncertain about.

Muslim moderates are no different. For the most part, they’re probably rather peaceable folks - living a decent life. However, as I indicated - western civilizations, including the USA, have been building a rather disturbing precedent of “voting” away individual rights on the false premise that anything voted by at least 51% of the people is somehow “just”. Like Christian moderates, the Muslims would likely never pursue a broad based policy of seeking Sharia Law through the exercise of their votes. No. They would however likely feel no issue with rallying behind one-off “little” exceptions. One by one, rights would be “voted” away to appease their community and their religion.

It’s worth remembering that it has been a long and hard battle against Christian “sensibilities” in the West. We can investigate the last 100 years and find all kinds of bizarre, religiously fueled “laws”. When exactly were the sodomy laws repealed? How long have homosexuals been equally protected as individuals under the Constitution? Oh right… they’re still fighting for that.

I see no reason why growing Muslim populations in the West would abstain from seeking to exercise their own “tyranny of the majority” that incumbent populations seem so keen on exercising. Do you?

I doubt the countless individuals over the past 100 or so years that have had their lives destroyed because of the Christian “moderates” would agree with you. Whenever individual rights are violated, lives are ruined - devastated.

Unless western civilizations return to a commitment to and reocgnition of the importance of constitutionally limited governments - I see no reason why we shouldn’t fear a growing population that retains contradicting values to our own.

That’s all reasonable enough I suppose, but I don’t think that is the motivation for the “fear and hate” the article refers to. I also don’t really think it is religions fault people are ignorant, hateful, and fearful, I just think religion is a major vehicle for expressing them because it is so traditionalist. With or without it, western society would have a giant block of ‘conservatives’ who stand behind any cruelty so long as it is the status quo. They always fight cultural change, no matter what it is, for whatever reason.

I really don’t care who is in this “tyranny of the majority” for various reasons. Primarily because I don’t think the majority wields that much power in America. I suppose they could if they wrecked the current political system, but currently the major actors in American politics are Business interests, various think tank types, tycoons, and politicians that comprise the power-elite, and funny enough this isn’t them usurping the power of the multitudes, rather it is a shift away from the nation-state being the dominant political force in the world. Anyway, in America, having a Muslim population become the majority really isn’t a concern to begin with.

This discussion is informative and I thank each of you for your perspectives. I’m trying to stay out of the way to let this roll for awhile. I’ve got a few things to say, but I’ll wait.

I just picked this up and wondered, is this really the sort of thing we can expect from muslim authority? Intimidation isn’t just a muslim phenomenom, but really, should anyone have to fear death because of satirical comments and drawings? At what point are muslims asking a bit much of the world? Or are they “justified” in their death threat fatwa’s?

It’s not all Muslims though, not even all that many of them. It’s a bastard question, with no simple answers, save the very simplest of all.

I don’t think ignorant and frightened people have ever needed “good” motivation to justify their fear and hate.

Agreed.

A majority of Americans have been voting down the rights of individuals who identify as homosexual for decades. Majorities - might makes right - have been violating the individual rights of minorities whenever it’s been convenient for years. I don’t see why that would change.

Do you really believe Muslims - or any significant pressure group - requires a majority in the population to act these days? I don’t think so. It’s a game of favours, pay offs and “compromises”.

Ie: “you vote for my law and I’ll vote for your law, or against your opponent, or whatever it takes”

I think politicians have made the political reality abundantly clear over the last 50 or so years. I’m not suggesting Muslims could use this reality today - but in the future when numbers are higher? Why not? Call me a cynic, but western civilization have made their bed - set a precedent for how minority interest groups should act to undermine individual rights whenever it suites them.

A small note about Homosexuals in America:

They are woefully incompetent at politics. The way to get the rights you are entitled to in America is to act as if you have them and force the transgressor to take action against you. When gays figure this out, when they barge into their spouses hospital rooms and force security to remove them, when they file taxes as married couples and force the IRS to go after them, when they get married and force the government to reject it in public, they will quickly gain the rights that are theirs.

Instead they wait to be granted rights that are already theirs, and it creates a very powerful illusion that they do in fact have to be “granted” the rights by an outside authority. Which in turn generates the illusion that they are getting something that is not by default theirs. They need to completely change the frame of the debate. And further, oppressed groups that were “granted” rights by the very people that historically denied those rights fare worse than groups that took their rights through their own behavior after officially getting the rights. Psychologically it is inferior to taking your rights, and as a matter of political status it is also inferior.

Good post.

Agreed. Good post Wobbly.