Islam Vs. Fact (the debate begins).

Okay, I am creating this thread so Hadj, and whoever else can debate with me about the authenticity of the Quran. I also plan to touch base on such issues as hermaphrodites, and sexual deviants and discuss what kind of impact Islam has upon these groups, and what Islam has to say about them. Hadj can be quoted saying:
“Well, I’ve clearly proofed that the message that Muhammed recieved (believe it to be the truth or not) was not his own words but rather God’s words. And would it matter if I proved that the Quran is authentic?”
To which I replied:
“Yes! It would! I would convert to Islam immediately, as I am sure at least a few other people would here. Come on guys, back me up on this one! If Hadj proves that Islam is completely authentic, let’s all switch to Islam. Come on Hadj. If you can prove it I will start a thread encouraging everyone to switch to Islam. I will show them how they simply can’t ignore the cold, hard facts, so they will by default either have to switch to Islam or live an eternity in the lake of fire with Satan! As I don’t think that anyone really wants to spend an eternity in the lake of fire with Satan (except Dr. Satanical ), I think pretty much everyone here will switch. Not only that, but then all those people on this board would make it their life’s goals to ahow everyone else, that in fact, Islam was the correct religion, and everything else is truly false. We would have undeniable evidence as such, and everyone might eventually switch to Islam. So please, prove to me that the Quran is completely authentic and is the word of God. Come on Hadj, just think how much you could do for the future of Islam. YOU CAN DOOOO IIIIIIIIIIT!”

So here the debate begins. Islam vs. Reality. Did God write the Quran, or is that some silly mythological belief. This is the main question this thread is designed to answer. As a secondary goal I would like to bring into scrutiny some of the practices and attitudes of Islam, some of which (notice I didn’t say all!) seem to encourage bigotry and oppression. I would like to analyze these Islamic laws and beliefs written in the Quran and come to conclusions of the morality of such religious laws/commandments.

Besides that, anything goes. Let me start by listing seventy contradictions of the Quran:
Internal Contradictions:

  1. And it just doesn’t add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur’anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.
  2. How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur’an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21.
  3. Further numerical discrepancies Does Allah’s day equal to 1,000 human years (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 human years (Sura 70:4)? — How many gardens are there in paradise? ONE [as stated in 39:73, 41:30, 57:21, 79:41] or MANY [18:31, 22:23, 35:33, 78:32]? — According to Sura 56:7 there will be THREE distinct groups of people at the Last Judgement, but 90:18-19, 99:6-8, etc. mention only TWO groups. — There are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11], THE angels (plural) [47:27] but also “It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death.” [39:42]
    Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]. But Gabriel had 600 wings. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455]
  4. How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad? One day [54:19] or several days [41:16; 69:6,7]
  5. Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created “the heavens and the earth” in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.
  6. Quick or Slow Creation? Allah creates the heavens and the earth in six days [7:54] and many Muslims want to be modern and scientific, and make that six eons, but then again, He creates instantaneously [2:117], “Be! And it is”.
  7. Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].
  8. Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
  9. What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], “sounding” (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]
  10. Fully Detailed Or Incomplete? The Qur’an claims for itself to be (fully) detailed, that nothing is left out of the book [6:38, 6:114, 12:111, 16:89 etc.]. However there are plenty of important issues which are left unclear in the Qur’an. This article discusses the confusion found in the quranic statements on wine.
  11. Worshiping the Same or a Different God? Muhammad is commanded to speak to the disbelievers: … nor do you worship what I worship [109:3]. However, other verses in the Qur’an state clearly that those disbelieving his message are in fact worshiping the same God, Allah.
  12. To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question! The Qur’an makes contradictory statements whether on the Day of Judgment intercession will be possible. No: [2:122-123, 254; 6:51; 82:18-19; etc.]. Yes: [20:109; 34:23; 43:86; 53:26; etc.]. Each position can be further supported by ahadith.
  13. Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach him [32:5, 70:4].
  14. The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?
  15. How merciful is Allah’s mercy? He has prescribed mercy for himself [6:12], yet he does not guide some, even though he could [6:35, 14:4].
  16. Will there be inquiry in Paradise? “neither will they question one another” [23:101] but nevertheless they will be “engaging in mutual inquiry” [52:25], “and they will … question one another” [37:27].
  17. Are angels protectors? “NO protector besides Allah” [2:107, 29:22]. But in Sura 41:31 the angels themselves say: “We are your protectors in this life and the Hereafter.” And also in other suras is their role described as guarding [13:11, 50:17-18] and protecting [82:10].
  18. Is everything devoutly obedient to Allah? That is the claim in 30:26, but dozens of verses speak of the proud disobedience of Satan [7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74, 18:50] as well of many different human beings who reject His commands and His revelations.
  19. Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur’an seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71]. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin.
  20. The event of worship of the golden calf: The Israelites repented about worshipping the golden calf BEFORE Moses returned from the mountain [7:149], yet they refused to repent but rather continued to worship the calf until Moses came back [20:91]. Does Aaron share in their guilt? No [20:85-90], yes [20:92, 7:151].
  21. Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? “Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick” [37:145] “Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate.” [68:49]
  22. Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].
  23. Can slander of chaste women be forgiven? Yes [24:5], No [24:23].
  24. How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].
  25. Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: “And behold, we said to the ANGELS: ‘Bow down to Adam’. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty.” [2:34].
  26. Three contradictions in 2:97 and 16:101-103 Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? The ANGEL Gabriel [2:97], or the Holy Spirit [16:102]? The new revelation confirms the old [2:97] or substitutes it [16:101]? The Qur’an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.
  27. The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: “It (the Qur’an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, … in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur’an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets).” Now, the ‘earlier writings’ are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur’an be contained in books of other languages? Furthermore, it would have to contain this very passage of the Qur’an since the Qur’an is properly contained in them. Hence these earlier writings have to be contained in yet other earlier writings and we are in an infinite loop, which is absurd.
  28. Is the Torah like the Qur’an, or is it not? The Muslim claim of the corruption of the Bible leads to a contradiction between S. 2:24 and 17:88 on the one hand, and 28:49 and 46:10 on the other.
  29. “An old woman” and God’s character About the story of Lot: “So we delivered him and his family, - all exept an old woman who lingered behind.” [Sura 26:170-171] And again: "But we saved him and his family, exept his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. [Sura 7:83]. Either this is a contradiction or if indeed Lot’s wife is derogatorily called “an old woman” then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.
  30. More problems with the story of Lot "And his people gave NO answer but this: They said, “Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!” [Sura 7:82 & 27:56]. Yet: "But his people gave NO answer but this: They said: “Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth.” [Sura 29:29]. Obviously these answers are different.
  31. The “pleasure” of Allah? Is God’s action of punishment or mercy and guidance or misguidance arbitrary?
  32. Did Abraham smash the idols? The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area (“turning away from them all”).
  33. What about Noah’s son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah’s son drowns.
  34. Was Noah driven out? “Before them the people of Noah rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, ‘Here is One possessed!’ And he was driven out.” [Sura 54:9] Now, if he is driven out [expelled from their country] how come they can scoff at him while he is building the ark since we read “Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of his people passed by him, they threw ridicule on him.” [Sura 11:38] He cannot be both: Driven out and near enough that they can regularly pass by.
  35. Pharaoh’s Magicians: Muslims or Rejectors of Faith? Did the Magicians of Pharaoh, Egyptians, become believers in the God of Moses [7:103-126; 20:56-73; S. 26:29-51] or did only Israelites believe in Moses [10:83]?
  36. Pharaoh’s repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented “in the sight of death” and was saved. But Sura 4:18 says that such a thing can’t happen.
  37. Abrogation? “The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words.” [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for “better ones” [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!
  38. Guiding to truth? “Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed …?” [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: “Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, …” [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah’s categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?
  39. What is the punishment for adultery? Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2], "confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women) [4:15]. For men: “If they repent and amend, leave them alone” [4:16]. 24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4. And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?
  40. Who suffers the consequence of sins? The Qur’an declares that everyone will be held responsible only for his own sins [S. 17:13-15, 53:38-42]. Yet, the Qur’an accuses the Jews of Muhammad’s day for the sins committed some 2000 years earlier by other Jews, e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf idol.
  41. Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say “Yes”, Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say “No”.
  42. God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur’an is “clear Arabic speech.” [16:103] Yet “NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah.” [3:7]. Actually, “men of understanding do grasp it.” [3:7]
  43. Was Pharaoh Drowned or Saved when chasing Moses and the Israelites? Saved [10:92], drowned [28:40, 17:103, 43:55].
  44. When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God’s truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?
  45. When/how are the fates determined? “The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.” [97:3,4] “Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night.” [44:3] To Muslims, the “Night of Power” is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah’s decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, “No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it.” This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah’s knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by “And every man’s fate We have fastened to his own neck.” This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]
  46. Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and … are only an infamy of Satan’s handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan’s handiwork get into Paradise?
  47. Good News of Painful Torture? Obviously, announcing torment and suffering to anyone is bad news, not good news. However, the Qur’an announces the good news of painful torment [3:21, 4:138, 9:3, 9:34, 31:7, 45:8, and 84:24].
  48. Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.
  49. Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.
  50. Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].
  51. Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.
  52. Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.
  53. Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.
  54. Did Jesus Die already? Sura 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).
  55. One Creator or many? The Qur’an uses twice the phrase that Allah is “the best of creators” [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is “the creator of all things” [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.
  56. From among all nations or from Abraham’s seed? Sura 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham’s seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.
  57. Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].
  58. Messengers were never sent to other than their own people? So it is claimed in Sura 14:4 and 30:47. However, the Bible and the Qur’an, and the Muslim traditions confirm that Jonah was sent to a different nation.
  59. Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21] but there seemingly are messengers from Jinns and Angels [6:130; 11:69,77; 22:75; etc., see article for details].
  60. Embryonic Sex Determination
    One of the references on human reproduction which Muslims often quote from the Quran is verse 53:45-46. This is interpreted as a reference to the determination of sex at the fertilization stage itself. However, elsewhere, the Quran says that the sex of a developing embryo is determined well after the leech-like clot stage!
  61. Width of the Garden
    There is a clear discrepancy with reference to the width of the Paradise or Garden in the Quran. Verse 3:133 says that it is all the heavens (Samawath: plural) and the earth combined. Verse 57:21 says that the width is the (lower?) heaven (Sama: singular) and the earth combined.
  62. Who misleads people? Satan or Allah?
    According to verse 4:119-120, Satan (the rejected one) is the one who creates false desires and misleads people. Refer also 15:42. However, according to verse 16:93, it is God who leaves people astray as He wills! See also 4:78.
  63. Attitude towards unbelieving parents
    Al-Quran givens contradicting information as to what a believer should do when unbelieving parents and brothers insist on worshipping their gods. Verse 31:15 asks believers to keep company with unbelieving parents even if they insist (on following their religion?), but verse 9:23 asks believers not to take their fathers and brothers as protectors if they disbelieved!
  64. Which enters the Paradise: Soul or Body or Both?
    After resurrection, it is the body (after reuniting with the soul?) which enters the Paradise. This has been emphasized throughout the Book. See verses 13:5, 17:98-99, 20:55, 34:7, 75:3-4. However verses 27-30 in Sura 89 state that it is the Soul (Nafs)* which enters the Garden!
  65. God needs man or man needs God?
    A very clear contradiction exists between verses 51:56 and 35:15. While the former verse says that God created Jinns and mankind for His own reasons (read also 67:2), the latter one says it is man who is in need of God! Read also 51:57.
  66. EVIL AND GOOD: Where do they come from?
    While one verse says that both Evil and Good issue from Allah, the very next verse says only Good comes from Allah!

"… If some good befalls them, they say “This is from Allah”. But if evil, they say “This is from thee” (O prophet). Say: “All things are from Allah…”* (4:79)
“Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself”
67. Who has to be blamed for BELIEF AND DISBELIEF ?

“It is they who have lost their own souls, that they will not believe” (10:100)
“No soul can believe except by the will of Allah”
68. Who has to be blamed for the wrongs done?
From verses 35:8, 16:93, 74:31, 2:142, we learn that it is Allah who has to be blamed for all the misguidance. While other verses hold man himself responsible for the wrongs done (30:9, 4:79).

“Allah leaves stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills” (30:9)
“It was not Allah who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls”

  1. UNBELIEVERS: To be persecuted or forgiven?
    Verses 23:117 and 98:6 say that unbelievers will not prosper and are the worst of creatures!. Verse 9:29 also asks believers to fight those who do not believe in Allah, the Last Day, His rules and His religion of truth. But verse 45:14 says otherwise. Read also 16:128.

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth …” (45:14)
“Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not hope for the Days of Allah; It is for Him to recompense (for good or evil) each people according to what they have earned”
70. 1. God’s advice to Muhammed on propagating Islam
We have seen apologists quoting verses from the Quran in support of their claim that the Quran does not recommend forceful conversions. The verse they often quote is 2:256 which says “There is no compulsion in religion”. There are also many verses in the Quran which suggest otherwise and these have already appeared on web pages. Here we see two contradicting directives from God on conveying Allah’s religion to the people:

"So if they dispute thee, say: “I have permitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me”… “Do you (also) submit yourselves? If they do, they are in right guidance. But if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the message. And in Allah’s sight are (all) His servants” (8:38-39)
"Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from disbelief), their past would be forgiven; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning to them). And fight them on until there is no more persecution and the religion becomes Allah’s in its entirety… "

Hadj, what do you think about these contradictions? Do you think an infallible God would have written a book containing such contradictions? What about the idea of infallibility and perfection itself. I find this idea to be flawed. For instance, there HAVE TO BE things that God cannot do. Can God make a rock that is too heavy for him to lift? Can God make himself completely cease to exist, and erase all evidence of His existance? Can God make a mistake? If it is impossible for God to make a mistake, then God cannot do everything. If God can make a mistake, then God is not infallible. There are so many logical contradictions in the mundane medieval religions of yester years that persist today, which refute the accuracy of such religions. What do you have to say about this, Hadj?

Also, what about hermaphrodites? What does Islam say about them? What sex do they go to hell for having sexual relations with? Did God just forget to mention them? How would he forget if he were infallible? If God is fallible, then by default doesn’t the possibility exist that I could be right, while God is wrong? If God were not infallible, would you consider that possibility? If you believe that God is infallible, then please explain how God can be infallible, yet contradict himself so much, and produce obvious errors such as the above mentioned.

About morality:
Hadj earlier posted this from the Quran: “And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, hurt them both. And if they repent (promise Allaah that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allaah is Ever All-Forgiving (the One Who forgives and accepts repentance), (and He is) Most Merciful”

He then later clarified after I objected to the fact that Islam encourages people to hurt homosexuals and other sexual deviants by saying that it was supposed to be carried out by the state. How does that make it any more right? Why should sexual deviants be punished for something that does not hurt anyone? What sexual acts are punishable in Islam? How many people do you think commit such acts? If you will list the acts I will dig up as accurate statistical information on such acts, just to show you a nice ball park estimate of just how many people Islam thinks should be hurt for deviating sexually, and to show that these acts which Islam proclaims as sin are not only harmless, but are quite frequent amongst the masses.

If anyone would like to argue Christianity or Judaism with me as well, have at it! All “skygod religions” are open for discussion in this thread…

These arguments had no impact because of the simple fact they have all been refuted. Taken one sentence and setting it next to another isn’t a smart move. If contradictions would exist in the Quran they would be widely known like the contradictions of the Bible but they aren’t all you have done is went to (or something similar…they all claim the same) and copied and paste. I don’t even think you understand the Quran or read it completely if I assume that you recently said you haven’t read it yet.

Now for the same power I could copy and paste every refutations of these claims by copy and paste the refutation from

That would make this thread very long.

Now it’s your turn to refute those. Or would you prefer to stop the copy and paste and read for yourself and discuss with me any problems you may find in the Quran?

And here is your answer concerning hermaphrodites: … waID=61625

Note to all: be a good discusser because I think that good manners should be top priority in such forums as these. If you have any questions regarding the Quran please one problem at the time. I’m the only (active) Muslim around here so give me atleast some breath to respond.

Invite (mankind, O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur’an) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.

I encourage everyone to read the following Q&A: … ionID=6605

The authenticity of any religious books, whether it be the Qur’an, the Bible, or whatever can not be proved! Simple fact is that it happened too damn long ago! Any religion has its good points, it’s bad points etc. The Qur’an can claim at least some form of authenticity as it was written AFTER the Bible, and knows of the Bible and the Christian religion. If it wasn’t authentic, then it wouldn’t know of this? Just wondering? I am not totally knowledgeable on this subject, but I just completed a school research project on Islam, so I now a few things. Bum me out if I’m wrong

Hadj what do you think about that apostate Ibn Warraq?

There is not much to say if he still insist to be anonymous. How can the muslim world have a dialogue if he still insist to be anonymous. Islam is been critized to the fullest extent although it’s still the strongest growing religion on earth. I’m not familiar with his arguments for I have not read his books. Maybe you can mention some arguments which are used.

ACB, I would just like to mention that to the truly faithful (at least a large group of them), God and His Word are fully evident simply by lookly the world and ourselves. The proof is all around us. As to immediately converting upon realizing the truth… for Muslims, Mohamed came and spoke the Word of God and many ignored him or persecuted him. In Christian belief, God Himself came down and still got nailed to a cross. If you want a different perspective… Evolution has been constantly shown by scientists, but Creationists will never accept it. The point I am trying to make here is that you could in fact be shown the Quran is authentic and still refuse to believe, simply because you do not allow yourself to see its authenticity. Most people are not honestly open to a change of their own beliefs. I think the title you gave to this thread shows very well that you are not in fact open to being shows Islam’s authenticity. You have already decided that Islam and reality are not compatible entities.
I guess I just get the impression that “you” (perhaps this really isn’t true of you, but it certainly is true of many who say, as you did, that they would immediately convert if given proof) could have God speak to you, say There is no God but Me and Muhamed is my messenger and you would be lookly around wildly for Spielberg and his special effects, wondering if someone had slipped you some LSD, and generally coming up with as many excuses as possible for what you experienced. I just wonder if there is any proof out there that would convince you, or what exactly it would take

Actually, if you read somoe of my posts around the board, you would find that I am not really like that. First off, I believe some wild shit, so God speaking to me wouldn’t be a first. Also, I believe in pantheism, and in order for God to truly speak to me, I would have to be somewhat speaking to myself since I am part of God. Also, I leave any of my beliefs open, and to be chnaged at a moments notice if I find they are wrong. If Hadj can offer me irrefutable proof that the Quran is the word of God, then I will convert. Are the Quran and fact compatible? Probably not. I still leave open the possibility, no matter how slight or unlikely that possibility is.

Hadj: I read those “refutings” that you posted a link for. They don’t nearly cover all of the contradictions I found. They only cover ten, and not very well at that. For example, the argument about the inheritance not adding up just simply states that in practice it doesn’t work that way. WELL NO SHIT! It would be impossible to work that way in practice! But as far as I am concerned that is what the Quran says, so if you practice something else, then you are practicing something other then Islam.

As far as your link about Hermaphrodites, that was quite rediculous. There was no scripture from the Quran at all listed. There was only some response from some Islamic scholar I bet the Quran says nothing about them. I guess your infallible God just forgot that there were hermaphrodites. Or maybe he had just never heard of them? Anyway, what that scholar says doesn’t make sense, nor does it answer my question. He says to have sexual relations with them before they have “reconstructive surgery” are a sin because you don’t know whether they are male or female. First off, I didn’t ask if it is a sin to have sexual relations with a hermaphrodite, I asked which sex it is a sin for a hermaphrodite to have sex with. Secondly, you can’t “tell” which gender they are before reconstructive surgery because they are neither. They are a third gender hermaphrodite. What if a hermaphrodite never has reconstructive surgery, ever? Would it still be a sin to have sexual relations with them? I find it really annoying the level of ignorance that Islamic scholar demonstrated. Hermaphrodites are a third gender. Many people (some being hermaphrodites, some not) think it is unfair to butcher these people and force them to fit into our social molds. Such medical malpractices are common in western countries, but in many eastern countries they are left alone, and are perfectly fine. There is no need for them to have reconstructive surgery. It is not a medical illness like that scholar suggests. If a hermaphrodite wants to have recontructive surgery, then fine. But if they do not, then they should be left alone. In America, the doctors are really pushy towards parents and just urge them to reassign genders to their hermaphrodite children right after they are born, before they can make a choice for themselves. I think this above all other practices is wrong. They should at least give the child a choice. Anyway though, considering that you did not provide any scriptures from the Quran about hermaphrodites, so I will assume that they do not exist, and you and that scholar both are only making guesses as to what your infallible God with a short memory wants because in his perfect book he forgot to mention that. If I am wrong, then please provide some scriptures. If not, then you will have to admit that the Quran is an inadequate guide for morality.

Also, please make a list of every sexual act that is a sin in Islam. I am interested in what all counts as a sin. What about golden showers? What about S&M/bondage? What about fetishes such as breast milk fetish, etc.? There are so many sexually deviant acts that I bet are not even mentioned in the Quran. Are those still sins? If so, then by whose authority?

The refutation

But do you want to start a copy and paste war? Are you knowledgable of the Quran and the Sunnah? I could too use and just type: refutation of claims of quranic contradictions
or something similiar. By the way there are exactly 101 refutations on that website. Too bad the site is currently down however I don’t understand your motives. Do you really think that any of these so-called contradiction can be taken serious? For example:
Contradiction number 50 states:
Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179]

Let me explain this in clear rationality: God has created men and jinn to serve God trough their own free will however God, Who knowns everthing knowns that many of them will enter hell.

It’s that easy to refute your so-called contradictions. Even I, a non-islamic degree holder, can refute them. Now let’s have a decent discussion and If you insist to bring up the contradiction allegation let’s discuss them one by one.

Not the genitals or in that matter organs decide if someone is a male or female but his/her netural inclination which is determined before someone is born.

See the Q&A. It is a sin because the sex is not yet determined. If it was a designed as a third gender why doesn’t it occur atleast by 33% of the humans?

You can do anything with (only) your wife/husband except sodomy.

And please keep in mind: It’s more easier to ask question than to answer them. So have patient and pick only one issue at the time becuase otherwise I will neglect some topics which I can leave unclear. There is no reason to haste and don’t be afraid I will leave. See my profile for full details if you want to contact me outside ILP.


will do at a later point… for now, let’s stick to the hermaphrodite/sexual deviance questions.

What are you trying to say here? Are you telling me that genitals don’t determine gender, but feminine or masculine traits do? In that case, then a really feminine male would have to be considered a female and it wouldn’t be a sin for another man to have sex with him.

I read the Q and A. It said nothing what so ever about hermaphrodites, and neither does the Quran. It wasn’t designed to be a third gender, it IS a third gender. It doesn’t account for 33% of humans because it is much more rare then that. So what? Reconstructive surgery is done on males and females as well. It is an unnatural modification of the body. If you think that is what God wants, then please quote me the passage where God encourages such activities. Also, if he does encourage such activities, does that mean it’s okay for transexuals to have the operation? What do you think about transexuals? If you had sex with a post-op transexual male to female and you are a male, would that be a sin? The person in question would technically qualify as a female.

Okay, so it is okay for my wife to drink diareah from my ass, but I can’t have anal sex with her? What about genital torture and mutilation?
Is this okay to do this with your wife: … guys16.jpg <— (not for the squeamish)

what about this: … /guys9.jpg

or this: … irls11.jpg

Is it okay to do those things with your wife? If so, then why not anal sex? Anal sex is a hell of a lot less deviant and extreme then the above listed practices. There are things people do to get off that are so shocking, that they make anal sex seem like something completely pussy ass. Those were just a few extreme examples of masochism. There are even worse sexual practices then that like wound-fucking. There are also other less extreme fetishes I am willing to bet you would object to also, like feederism.

Okay, for now, let’s discuss sexual deviation/hermaphrodites then. I would like to know how exactly the Quran addresses these issues. I am also interested in hearing what the Quran says about thrill seeking. Does it say anything about that? That seems to be the biggest folly with religions. These infallible Gods just leave out certain issues. What was there not enough room in their religious documents for these things?

God does not adress hermaprohites in the Quran because of the reason:

O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaqun (pious). Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

We have to test if there is a thing as a third sex. First of all I couldn’t find any reference material who claimed that hermaphrodites are a third sex.

"Either of a pair of chromosomes that determine whether an individual is male or female.

The sex chromosomes of mammals are designated X and Y; in humans, they constitute one pair of the total 23 pairs of chromosomes. Individuals possessing two X chromosomes (XX) are female; those having one X and one Y chromosome (XY) are male." Encylopedia Britannica

So we have to accept it’s a disorder because there is no such thing as a third sex chromosome. So either one has a biological tendency to male or female; for most humans it’s clear and for some it isn’t.

Many people are borned with unnormal (mathematical unnormal, that is) features. Many of them are harmful for their own bodies and many of these disorder may prevent them to have a normal life (e.g. born with one leg). Claiming they don’t fit in the religion teaching of Islam is just seeking for exceptions which are not yet studied well. However I’ve proven there are only two chromosome (and not three) respectively male and female. The chromosomes dertermine our tendicy. Although intersexed don’t have a clear tendicy it’s not a reason to claim it’s a third sex. Neither are humans who are born with one arm another type of humans.

Staying intersexed can cause a lot of problems and confusing for the one who has it and for the ones who encouter him/her. Like any human disorder it should be corrected.

Transexuals are:
A transsexual (sometimes transexual) person establishes a permanent identity with the opposite gender to their assigned (usually at birth) sex. Transsexual men and women make or desire to make a transition from their birth sex to that of the opposite sex, with some type of medical alteration (gender reassignment therapy) to their body.

A desire is not a justification for altering your own body.

You didn’t find any information because you didn’t look hard enough. I realize that there are two cromosomes, so what? Are you to tell me that a natural born hermaphrodite is either male or female? If so, then which is it? The answer is neither. I bet if you had a kid who was born like that you would go ahead and get the surgery, and the child would hate you for it. See this article: … nchor59692

Also, cromosones are an inadequate way to describe a gender. See this article: … .Dv.r.html

Some animals do not even have cromosomes. So anyway, this statement is false:

"O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. "

It fails to mention sexually ambiguous people who are born neither male nor female. Did Allah not create them? If not then who did?

You never answered my question about transexuals. Is it a sin for someone to have a sexual relationship with a post op transexual that used to be of the same sexual gender as they. What about if they didn’t used to be the same gender, but now have had reconstructive surgery into the opposite gender? Is it a sin then? What about natural born hermaphrodites that have both sexual organs? Which sex is it a sin for them to have sexual relations with? Do you just automatically go to hell if you are a hermaphrodite and never have reconstructive surgery? If so, then did all the hermaphrodites before reconstructive surgery was invented go to hell? What about the sexual deviations that I listed up there? Are you to tell me those are okay, while anal sex gets you straight to hell? If so, how much sense does that make?

Please give authorative information and not information of a lobby group. ISNA stands for Intersex Society in North America; they are clear a lobby group.

Hey thanks for helping me!
During normal male development, the gonads form into testis, the male based genitalia enlarge and the female based genitalia regress. In female development, the opposite happens, gonads become ovaries male genitalia regress and female genitalia enlarge. Sexually ambiguous individuals develop in a way that both sets of genitalia enlarge. Notice, that these individuals still only have one set of gonads. These gonads will either be testis or ovaries and that will truly identify the sex of the individual. In some cases, the gonad will itself be ambiguous and share histological characteristics of both testis and ovaries, but in this case it will be able to function as neither. So the individual that develops is not a true hermaphrodite since they lack any functional reproductive organ.

These types of “sexual” confusions are more confusing to us as humans than they are in the natural world. Cases of clitoral hypertrophy (a penis-like organ on the female) is quite common in nature and is actually the “normal” condition in many types of animal (such as the hyena and the spider monkey). Similarly, undescended testis are common in elephants. It becomes confusing in humans because much of our role in society is determined by sex. If we don’t know whether someone is male or female (whether this is due to biological ambiguity or some type of cross-dressing) our culture does not instruct us well as to how we should interact with that person.

Under most circumstances, we have as much control over choosing our culture as we do over choosing our sex. Therefore, I am hesitant to criticize anyone too harshly on this issue. Our culture demands that we categorize individuals, and when male and female do not seem to apply well, we fall back on the term Hermaphrodite, and that term is about as culturally useful, and potentially hurtful, as any other. But: I will state clearly, as a biologist, that a true hermaphrodite cannot happen in humans.

"O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. "

It says “mankind”, doesn’t it?

Now let’s see how many questions you’re asking:

One by one. So choose one.

Pantheism, simply stated, means “God is All” and “All is God”. It is the view that everything is of an all encompassing God. More detailed definitions tend to emphasize the idea that natural law, existence and/or the universe (the sum total of all that is was and shall be) is personified in the theological principle of ‘God.’

One way to describe certain interpretations of pantheism is to say “you are to God, as an individual blood cell in your vein is to you.” While a cell may be aware of its own environs, and even has some choices (freewill) between right and wrong (killing a bacteria, becoming malignant, or perhaps just doing nothing, among countless others) it likely has little conception of the greater being of which it is a part. Another way to understand this relationship is the Hindu concept of atman. It is important to note that not all interpretations of pantheism would find this analogy meaningful; for that matter, not even all pantheists believe in free will. This is indicative of the wide diversity of pantheist belief. Source

It’s evident that pantheism is devised by human’s to define God in a way that suits them. I think it’s attractive because you can’t deny everything (thus you can’t deny God). However there are no indication nor any scripts from God Himself who has verified this view.

Believing pantheism is a way of escaping the rules of God but at the same time you don’t deny the existance of a deity. What’s the point in believing everything is god? God says in the Quran the following about Himself:
Say: "He is Allah, (the) One.
Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
He begets not, nor was He begotten;
And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.

Pantheism is, like many other believes, another way to escape God’s Law and denying The Religion which was sent down by many Prophets. Most of them are confirmed by the Jews and Christians. Each time God has mercy on us and sends down another Messenger to help us be good and avoid all what is evil. Still people refuse as mentioned in the Quran:
"if they see every one of the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: “These are nothing but tales of the men of old.”

Another Q&A from
"Pantheism is the philosophy that everything is God (pan=everything, theos=God) or that the universe and nature are divine. For all practical purposes, according to Islam, pantheism is atheism because it does not acknowledge the existence of God apart from the world, nor does it say that there is a God Who is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, nor does it say that there is divine judgment or the hereafter. From this it is clear that pantheism cannot have any place in Islam.

It is true that Islam gives 99 names to God. But this does not mean that God can take 99 forms! These names signify the qualities of the One God, such as the Creator, the Sustainer, the Merciful, the Forgiving. And they do not in any way mean that God takes different forms or incarnates in those forms. The polytheists or those who believe in the incarnations of God may try to misinterpret the significance of the names of God to find some justification for their false beliefs. But from the point of view of the Qur’an and the Sunnah, there is no chance for such misinterpretation. Most assuredly, they are wrong.
And Allah knows best.

Thank you again for your question and please keep in touch."

What they mean by there are no true hermaphrodites, they mean that hermaphrodites cannot reproduce by themselves. There are still people born that are clearly neither male nor female as that article states possibly neither – but never both". There are many different types of intersexuals, but the specific group of them that I am referring to when I say hermaphrodites are those who have a penis, one testicle (though that testicle is sterile), a fallopian tube, a uterus, and overies (though once again, the ovaries are sterile). Besides this there are many other forms of intersexes such as female testicularization and such. Those are ambiguos as well, but not nearly to the extent of the hermaphrodites I am discussing here. These hermaphrodites are truly neither male nor female.

As far as that list of questions, I think a well written short essay could answer all those at once, but if you insist,I will go through them one at a time. But know that you won’t get out of answering them, I will not just give up on them as they are valid questions, that make good points, which I believe are not addressed in the Quran.


Is it a sin for someone to have a sexual relationship with a post op transexual that used to be of the same sexual gender as they? What about if they didn’t used to be the same gender, but now have had reconstructive surgery into the opposite gender? Is it a sin then?

These two go together, so hopefully that isn’t too much for you.

Why is your idea of God any more valid then mine? Your prophets A. may never have existed for all you know, B. may have been insane, C. may have eaten ergot infected grain, D. accidentally ate some other psychotropic substance, or E. their messages may have been misconstrued through time, and maynot be the same messages or stories that they once were at all.

I have had visions, I have met God, I have seen that the universe is all one thing, and that thing is God. Therefore, I am a prophet. So if you don’t listen to me then you might go to hell? Maybe I am your sign Hadj. Maybe you should listen to me. God wants you to ask you that if you do not think that he resides in the cosmos, then where do you think God resides? If God does reside in the cosmos, then why can’t we see God? Perhaps we can see God. Perhaps we see God on a daily basis, and just do not know it. Perhaps God is part of us. Perhaps the God that is inside every one of us is what guides us, and makes us know the difference between right and wrong. I trust that God that is in me, more then I trust any book written by man, which the Quran was. You can dispute who authored it all you want, but the fact still remains that ink and paper did not just fall out of the sky into perfect alignment in order to create the Quran, therefore it was written by man, and published using a printing press. Man even with his tools is largely fallible. When you put your faith in a book, you put your faith in man, not God. If you want to put faith in God, listen to the God inside of you. He is more reliable then any book of man.

Your profits are no more credible then I am. Who decided they were credible? Man did. Is man infallible? No he is not. Then the possibility remains that you are putting faith in the wrong place, and nothing that it says in any book published by man can change that. If God wanted to write a book, why would he need Muhammed? You said yourself, that God could do anything, so why wouldn’t ink and paper just fall out of the sky, and land on the ground as the Quran?

I know you said strongest growing religion, if you would like to provide the statistic for that I think it would help your argument against everyone. Furthermore, the biggest religion in the world is Christianity. In fact, the number one religious branch in the world is Roman Catholic with 1,057,328,093 followers according to The Top Ten of Everything 2004, by Russell Ash. Sunni Islam is second. Protestant Christian is fourth and Sufi Islam is fifth, Christian Orthodox is 8th and Shia Islam is 10th. All unmentioned position were either Hinduism or Buddhism. Lastly, even if the Islamic sects were the most prominent, even if 99.99% of the entire world’s population of humanity would believe in Islam…that still wouldn’t make Islam right. That still wouldn’t necessitate the existence of God. Sorry. Remember, 99.99% of the world once thought the world was square. Please don’t make the usual mistake of most religious gurus and claim that I am for Christianity, I’m not. My statements here are merely factual, they in no way present my personal beliefs in any way.

What’s your take?

I don’t quite understand. I thought that true hermaphrodites are the ones who are biologically female and male at the same time (not a third sex; just someone who can simulate both). Either way I haven’t seen any proof of someone who is biological both sexes perfectly. And if you found one it’s still only the private parts, we should look at the whole body and determine which sex the person belongs to. You have to acknowledge like in computers there is only 1 and 0, obviously not 2. Again I want to stress out that this phenomenon is not studied extensively let alone in the Islamic world. So seeking “religious holes” by putting (bodily) exceptions and disorders on the table is paranoid. Many have preceded you. If you want to continue nabbing about hermaphrodites that’s fine but you need to give authorative proof that hermaphorites are considered a third sex by the medical world.

I’m not found with writing essays in English. As you may have seen, my english is weak and still needs some upgrade.

I couldn’t find any fatwa (judical opinion of a scholar) on the issue of having sex with a transexual.

The following statement only represent my opinion from what I’ve learned of Islam:

It’s a sin to have sex with the same sex although the person may had a surgery changing his/her private part. This is because your sex is determined by birth biologically and not by own thinking. You see a lot of transexual who still need to take hormones to look like a woman/man and still most of them can be easily recognized of their unusual way of looking/talking/thinking/et cetera which still resembles his/her true gender. So the rules of sodomy still applies.

Notice: this is not a fatwa and can’t be taken as a legal verdict that represents Islam. I’m very careful about such issues because I’m not learned in the Islamic jurisprudence. Again I note you’re seeking holes for denouncing Islam; we could rather talk about the essence of existing and the purpose of life and of course how Islam look at it.

There is plenty of research about hermaphrodites, just not on the internet. There have been shows on discovery health about it many times, which express the opinions which I give on hermaphrodites, and confirm my information on such people, as well as a multitude of books on the subject. If I had such books in e-book format, I would gladly give you the information, but I do not, so the best I can do to provide evidence on the issue is to dig up what few internet articles there are. I can tell you this though, there are individuals that exist, which are neither male nor female. They have all the reproductive organs of both (with the exception of one ovary, and one testicle missing each), but are completely sterile. They have a penis, one testicle, a vagina, a fallopian tube, a cervix, a uterus, and one set of ovaries. What would you call such a person, male or female? They are entirely neither. Being such, it is safe to say that not everyone is male or female. Though hermaphrodites have not been officially classified as a third sex, the ones I am speaking of qualify as neither male nor female. There are many other types of hermaphrodites as well, that are quite sexually ambiguous, but still are SOMETIMES labled as one gender or another. These individuals are labled as such mainly for convienience, and the parents of such children are usually urged to have reconstructive surgery done to change the child to either male or female, for social, not medical reasons. Often times the child later in life resents this decision. There are many of all different types of hermaphrodites that live in other cultures their whole lives without any reconstructive surgery, and never suffer any medical complications due to their condition. Whether or not you want to actually consider them a separate sex besides male or female is irrelevant. The point is that there are people who are neither male nor female. In the Quran is says that God created mankind as male and female. So then what about the people that are neither male nor female? Did someone else besides God create them? If the Quran is correct, then that would be the only way to explain their existance. The fact that it makes no mention of these people in the Quran is proof that the Quran is incomplete. A man might overlook such a thing, an all knowing God would not. Neither would he overlook the problems associated with his moral system, and gender reassignments. A man who existed when the Quran was written would have no way of knowing anything about gender reassignment. A God who knows everything certainly would.

This thread was created so you could “prove” that the Quran was authentically authored by a one true God. These things that are not part of the Quran are evidence that the Quran was authored by something of the same ignorance level as a human being. Unless God is ignorant, it is unlikely that he would have authored such a book. So I am doing two things here. Showing you the imperfections of the Quran, and discussing morals from the Quran, while pointing out loopholes and conflictions of such a moral system. I am willing to talk about the essence of existance and the purpose of life, but I really want to discuss these issues as well, because I think they make my point quite clearly when you get down to it. I think there exists much more evidence that the Quran was written and authored by man then there is evidence that it was written and authored by God. I think this further needs to be clarified, but I am willing to take another approach at this, that may be easier for you. Can you compile a list of all the evidence and reasonings that exist which suggest that the Quran was authored by God? You do that, and then I will rebut by cross examining the evidence you provide, and providing some of my own, which in turn you can cross examine. Then we can tell for sure whether there is more evidence that the Quran was written by God, or by man.

Regaurding what information you posted about transexual relations, what about if the person used to be a female, has gender reassignment surgery and becomes a man, and then has sexual relations with another man? Is that a sin? These are the type of issues that whoever wrote the Quran never even dreamed of. These issues seriously exist though, and there are people that do these very things that I mention, though they are in the minority. I realize that there is little information on such things regaurding Islam, but that is partially my point here. Islam does not address these things. Would a perfect God leave out such issues? Since they are not listed in the Quran, then doesn’t that make them fair play, and not sins? It never clearly defines gender in the Quran, so it is impossible to say what is a sin and what is not. If a man has gender reassignment surgery, in many countries (including the U.S.) he is considered female by law. He has the genitals of a female, and even takes female horomones, while recieving no male horomones. He does not have all the reproductive organs, but neither do women that have had historectomies, so that isn’t really much of an issue. Whoever wrote the Quran was obviously not expecting such social deviance, and thus did not include it in the Quran.

I agree that great numbers won’t justify anything however they should not be ignored. However you must consider that we live in a modern civilization where rationality prevails; so according some members of this forum the numbers of (practising) muslims should be declining instead of raising.

And now the facts:
"Islam is the largest religion after Christianity. According to sources such as the World Network of Religious Futurists[1], the U.S. Center for World Mission[2] , and the controversial Samuel Huntington, Islam is growing faster numerically than any other religion; this growth is attributed both to natural population growth and a rate of conversion higher than all other religions combined. In the U.S., more people convert to Islam than any other faith.

The religion of Islam brought by Muhammad began in the Hejaz region of present-day Saudi Arabia in about 610 CE, and according to [3] it now comprises 1.3 billion believers, 23% of the world’s population. However, only 18% of Muslims live in the Arab world; a fifth is found in Sub-Saharan Africa, about 30% in the Indian subcontinental region of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, and the world’s largest single Muslim community (within the bounds of one nation) is in Indonesia. There are also significant Islamic populations in China, Europe (especially in the Mediterranean countries), the former Soviet Union, and South America. There are approximately 7 million believers in the USA and Canada." (Source)