This is so sad if it wasn’t true I’d be crying in laughter:
can we say, psycho
The rights and wrongs of the past e.g. whether the state of Israel has any right to exist at all, should be forgotten in order to move forward.
The major problem is that they can’t.
If we detach ourselves from the emotion of the past, it is clear that Israel is in the wrong for the way it blatantly mistreats the Palestinians (they don’t even control their own water supply).
However the use of force is never really justified- a ceasefire is desperately needed.
Sharon is not the real obstacle to negotiation- ultimately, as Israel is a democracy, he has been elected by the people, and it is their attitude that is the obstacle.
But this attitude is one borne of the past decades of violence- if only history could be set aside…
With regard to our intervention, of course we cannot let the situation continue, although I agree that we should attempt to put our own houses in order as well.
The previous prime minister of Israel, Ehud Barak, offered Arafat the best deal since the whole intafada began. Barak offered all the land that was captured by the Israeli’s during wars they did not start, and half of Jerusalem. ARAFAT DID NOT AGREE. Note that the palestinians could NOT get rid of Arafat because they are not a democracy.
What then, were the people of Israel supposed to do? Elect another leader like Barak who would offer the same to Arafat who would just deny it again. No, the Israelis did the only thing that was left to them. Elect a leader who will say “bollocks to you then Arafat, we’ll sit right where we are if you’re not willing to negotiate”
Yes, what Sharon has done is debatable but the reason he is in power is because the Israeli people saw NO other alternative if Arafat was not willing to negotiate.
the deal that Barak offered was undoubtedly not as simple as that, there is no way that Arafat would not have accpeted a deal such as that unless there was another clause he would have to follow, such has disarming the palestinian ‘terror’ groups.
for that matter, of terror, the isralies are technically terrorists too, they just have an airforce. they use terror as a weapon, therefore they are terrorists. what you are forgetting is that the palestinians have lost their country, their rights, their lives, their children, their land, their money, their freedom and ultimately the right to choose how their country is run. the israelies are in the wrong and should create the palestinian state.
You are just disagreeing with me to be controversial. Find any information on the deal that Barak offered Arafat and you will find it was better than the deal that they are agreeing to settle too now.
On what basis are you saying that Israel uses terror as a weapon? Terrorism is the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies. Where do you see Israel doing that? They are deploying their army to defend the country, always taking care to minimise casualties. It’s in the Israeli army training to do this! I know this because my mother and my uncle were both in the Israeli army.
Terrorism is deliberately going into town centres and blowing yourself and other innocent people up purely for the purpose of making a political and/or religious statement. Where are the parallels with the Israeli army which are conducting themselves in the same way as any other respectable army in the civilised world.
Your statement is baseless, for some reason you have jumped on the palestinian sympathy bandwagon because it’s the popular thing to do at the moment. Perhaps you should give some evidence for your comments instead of supporting a bunch of vicious murderers.
the israelies use terror in a number of ways. terror is installed through the use of F-16’s circling over the palestinian cities, and when you know that any day they could strike at a taxi they THINK is carrying so called terrorists and also inflict casualties on the civilians around them, and if you have ever seen a car hit by either 4 hellfire’s simulatneously (as the israelies have done on several occasions) or a GBU-16 then you will know how indescriminate a few tonnes of explosives are. this added with the fact that israelies have a habbit of using the reheat on their engines to create a ‘boom’ over cities. how do i know this? because the israelies have had a very disproportionate number of turbine failures due to engines being over stressed.
another terror tactic, how would you feel if your comfy suburb was suddenly surrounded by special forces, a curfew was impossed, and you were told not to leave your home under any circumstances. you are already sacred, then say your father’s dodgy heart starts to twinge because of the added stress and he has a heart attack, you go for help, eg. leave the house, you die. a sniper shoots you dead, no questions asked.
the israelie army implements tactics and lessons learnrf in northern ireland on how to install fear in a population. they do this because it is the only way they can win. if they can scare the palestinians so much that they fear to step out of their homes, let alone retaliate against the israelies then they will have peace, at a cost of many many lives.
jumping on the bandwagon? i think not, before i sympathised to a lesser extent with the palestinians, but now that the situation has changed i can longer see how the israelies can call themselves a free country if they inflict humiliation, deaths and retribution on the palestinians at every opportunity, then call them the terrorists.
finally, terrorism is spending the largest percentage of GDP on defence for a coutnry the size of israel, then using it to kill civilians, repress freedoms, and torture the ordinary people of an unrecognised state.
[This message has been edited by macca (edited 13 April 2002).]
how do we really know what was offered to Arafat? were you in the room when the sheet with the agreement was handed to him, it's plain simple Arafat would have accepted a deal from the Israelies if he could have.
"Terrorism is the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies." that's exactly what the Israelies are doing, and if the Israelies were so dedicated to minimumising casualties, why dot he insist upon firing 5.56mm ammunition in their M-16's/AR-15's, when they could very easily use 9mm MP-5's to achieve just as deadly effects on their intended targets but greatly reduce the chances of their rounds travelling through several buildings/civilians. saying the israelies always take care to minimumise casuatlies is a blatant lie, if they did there are a huge number of steps they could take to greatly reduce casulaties.
Firstly Ben, President Arafat was elected by the people of Palestine in a free and fair democratic election, you fail to mention that…AND IT WAS FREE AND FAIR COS THE UN WITNESSED IT AND SAID SO !
Secondly and this is an open question, really it does break my heart, how can an army should indiscriminantly and then hold back the medics or EVEN THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS…from aiding those inncocent people wounded, TELL ME ANYBODY ??? How is that possibly…WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON !
Ben, justify that ! What the suicide bombers did was wrong, but do the whole of Palestine have to pay for their mistakes ?!MR SHARON HAS NOW SUCCESFULLY TURNED THE WHOLE PALESTINE STATE, into a STATE OF SUICIDE BOMBERS, a story if I may:
A mother and her two sons were sitting in their house, innocent people, an Isralie helicopter fired a missile into the house next door, completely obliterating that house and half the mothers house. The mother and her two sons were injured the younger son aged 17, mortally. The mother called for the ambulance, the Israeli soldiers stopped it from getting to her, she then went out into the street looking for help, she was shot dead, a single shot to her head, JUSTIFY THAT !! This is just one bloody stor…the media are not allowed in WHY !>!>>! WHAT THE HELL HAS SHARON GOT TO BE SCARED OFF !! Now reports are coming out, from independent news crews who’ve managed to sneak in that THE ISRAELI’S ARE CREATING MASS GRAVES, PALESTINIANS, innocent guilty all the same to the average soldier, burried, hidden from the view of the world. Its another holocaust, this time a long drawn out one, this time an arab holocaust. The suicide bombers don’t speak for the whole of Palestine, and yet somehow the Israel’s are making them the spokespersons for the Palestinian cause. The story above was just one of a kind, in another incident a man was shot in the arm as he pleaded for help the Israeli soldiers told him to be quiet and to die, he did die, quietly, bleading to death…and we are just standing by and watching.
i wouldn’t go as far as to call it a holocaust, but the actions of the israelies are wholly unacceptable, and only worsening the situation.
“Now reports are coming out, from independent news crews who’ve managed to sneak in that THE ISRAELI’S ARE CREATING MASS GRAVES, PALESTINIANS, innocent guilty all the same to the average soldier, burried, hidden from the view of the world. Its another holocaust, this time a long drawn out one, this time an arab holocaust.”
The most offensive way that anyone can criticise Israel is to liken its behaviour to that of Nazi Germany. You too are jumping on a bandwagon, a bandwagon that the Iraqi Propaganda Ministry is on when it produces pictures of swastikas which form the shape of the Star of David. If you have no presentable evidence for what you have said then I refute everything you say as the words of an ignorant, racist twat. Your knowledge of events is so limited that it hurts and like macca you seem to have an innate ability to see things in black and white.
P.S. Of course I don’t agree with Sharon’s behaviour. In my mind, he is disgracing Israel but the current wave of anti-Israeli sentiments is too much. Do people forget the action of suicide-bombers when playing the blame game, which, macca and MusRep is all you’re doing.
Alex I do apologise if I have offended you or any other Jew/Zionist out there !! I did so unintentionally and all I can do is apologise.
Now I demand an apology of u:
‘An ignorant, racist twat’
FOR YOUR INFORMATION ALL INFORMATION INCLUDED IN MY PREVIOUS POST WAS TAKEN FROM A BRITISH NATIONAL NEWSPAPER, if you would like the name or issue number or even the article don’t hestitate to ask, the Iraqi propoganda machine has nothing to do with it at all !! Do you understand that ?! Racist, I will simply as Ben to testify against that. Now I wonder who is being the ignorant twat, perhaps who knows maybe even racist.
YOU still have not responded to a single point I’ve made…anti-Jewish sentiment, tragic tell that to the innocent Palestinian shot dead by a trigger happy Israeli soldier.
I do think “'An ignorant, racist twat” is a bit harsh. I don’t see the racism in his post, and I don’t see how using the holocaust as a comparison is inherently anti-semitic.
Alex said"Do people forget the action of suicide-bombers"
MusRep said"What the suicide bombers did was wrong"
I do see how MusRep could be interpreted as being offensive, but i honestly don’t think he was.
I know that those who know me know I sympathise with the palastinians, but I never sympathise with violence against innocents, the suicide bombers are monsters, as are the soldiers who deliberatley target civilians, (and i am sure htis happens), as well as those who give the orders.
As as a final note, equating Jews with the holocaust is surely just as racist as equating a Muslim with Iraq?
I apologise for calling you a racist (although your comment was offensive even if Hiren thinks I’m being “over-sensitive”) and a twat (that was the product of a moment of irrational anger directed your way). I’m also sure that you’re not ignorant (from what Ben’s told me about you) BUT your presentation of facts is partial and your knowledge of the underlying issues (like macca’s) is limited.
I would like to read the article and so I don’t know why you still haven’t made any specific references to it. If you want people to be swayed by your opinion (which you obviously do, and there’s nothing wrong with that at all) then you must be more specific. What’s the good of, “A British national newspaper” or “a man was shot in the arm.” I don’t doubt that the cases you described are true (except for the mass graves story which would disgust me if shown to be true) but please be more specific, otherwise I have a right to doubt you.
The reference to Iraqi propaganda is entirely appropriate because using the word “holocaust” to describe this conflict has certain connotations for a Jew, can you not see this? On Dimblebey last week, the Palestinian Ambassador in London used similar techniques. He said that the Palestinians were now the Jews of the Jews. It is hurtful so don’t deny that.
“Now I wonder who is being the ignorant twat, perhaps who knows maybe even racist.” NOW (???) that you’ve proved what exactly? I’m sorry but I don’t exactly see what you’ve demonstrated to make this accusation. Please clarify. If you wrote more clearly maybe there wouldn’t be all these problems of clarification!
You speak of “trigger happy Israeli soldier(s)” well I do not doubt that there are some rascists in the Israeli Army, maybe some who want to see Palestinians killed. However I’ve spoken to length with people who fight in the IDF, something I doubt you have done. The people I have met are so hurt when they hear people accusing them of doing things they would not dream of. Are you not accusing the general Israeli soldier of being a racist, something very likeable to accusing the suicide bombers of being the spokespeople of the Palestinian Cause (which I believe you were protesting against). Israeli soldiers are mainly young (there is compulsory national service over there) and many of them are fucking scared when Molocov Coctails are thrown at them. The majority of the tragic deaths of Palestinians are unintended. They are accidents which arise from stressful situations and an atmosphere of fear, on top of human imperfections. Maybe some are intended racist murders but on the whole they are not! Israel also apologises (however little that may mean) when accidents happen. In contrast, suicide bombers go out to kill innocent people. They don’t intend to harm extremists - they intend just to kill Israelis, whatever their political belief. They are entirely indescriminate in their behaviour. And then does the Palestinian Authority apologise? Usually not. Arafat only apologised the other day due to physical pressure on him. In fact the suicide bombers become martyrs and you see pictures of them, painted in a glorious light, on big advertising boards all around the West Bank. They are hailed as heroes, something that Israeli soldiers who kill Palestinian innocents (either accidently or purposefully)are certainly not.
You complain that the suicide bombers are made the spokespeople of the Palestinian cause. Well who else is? I believe that Arafat is head of the Palestinian Authroity, is he not? Well he funds and encourages terrorism. For fuck’s sake, the El-Asqa Brigade (apologise if spelt incorrectly) is linked to HIS Fatah (again I apologise if not correct spelling) movement. How often do you hear the voice of the Palestinians who are against the terrorism?
“Alex said"Do people forget the action of suicide-bombers"MusRep said"What the suicide bombers did was wrong”" Oh yeah he mentioned it as a kinda side-issue but then the whole of the rest of the post was a criticism of
alex - i would you to show how Mus Rep’s, and my knowledge of the issues is limited, from what i remember you have yet to present an arguement that we have not counter argued?
ben - you have yet to respond to the evidence that i presented proving the israelies do not take many of the steps that would save lives while conducting operations in palestinian cities.
Macca, the only thing you wrote in response to my original post was:
“one mans terrorist is another freedom fighter. you cannot call one side terrorists and the other an army just becuase they have helicopters, government funding etc. the palestinians are fighting for their own state, therefore they are freedom fighters.”
You did not reply to my last post so I don’t know what you want me to argue against. If you direct me to your counter-argument then I would be happy to try and respond to it. In response to the above quotation, I don’t disagree. I’m not playing a blame-game, I’m not saying that the Palestinian terrorsits are guilty whilst the Israelis are innocent. I’m not at all impressed by Sharon, the man’s a dickhead who should be punished for the Sabra and Chatila massacres. I’ve also said that I believe that there must be an independent Palestinian State and I can understand why someone might see the Palestinian terrorists as freedom fighters. They want an independent state. But that does not justify violence. You said in your original post that violence was justified although suicide bombings wasn’t your “personal taste”. I have nothing therefore to respond to, unless I’ve made a stupid mistake and am missing something.
P.S. For a glimmer of hope (a microcosm of what may be a hopeful society in the Middle East) have a look at the web site for Neve Shalom/ Wahat al-Salam (Oasis of Peace) at http://www.nswas.com
i would just like to point out that bens point about the rejection by Arafat of the offer by Israel. I understand what Macca said about there may have been other clauses… but where are they? show me some evidence! I have heard both ben and fazs (MusRep) take on the matter and as far as i can tell Israel were left with no choice at all but to elect Sharon.
However, this does not justify their actions now! Things have gone too far!
I think the arguements that have gone on within this forum demonstrate the greater problems in Israel. Both jews and muslims alike in this debate have been trying to get the upper hand all the way through, trying to out do the other… and when things got to much stooping to bad language and name calling… this behaviour can be seen in the war, except the name calling was violence! Although, we have been able to bring it back on track; when issues such as land are at stake it is harder to do so. Perhaps we should look at our own prejudices and feelings on the matter in order to identify with the situation!
The point is, no matter how it arose, whoever is wrong or right, we should all accept that the current situation is wrong… eg. when a single muslim suicide bomber kills some isralis, they retaliate with huge force killing many more innocent muslims… either way it is wrong! should we not be debating how to resovle the situation? rather than arguing who is right or wrong? You see, i think that if we did this, and did debate how to resolve it, it would soon degenerate back to right and wrong /who started it kind of things… thus prooving my earlier point.
however i would love to be proved wrong, and for us to have a sensible debate about solutions to the problem without the degeneration! surely this would be a better use of time!
I see why you want this to become a more ‘constructive’ debate but unfortunately you cannot look to the future and try to come up with a solution unless you consider the past and why the bitterness, hatred and divisions have arisen. This is not a debate of who’s wrong and who’s right. Neither is neither.
Of course the killing is wrong. I’m surprised that you even feel a need to say this (not that I’m trying to criticise you) because I believe that it’s so OBVIOUSLY A TERRIBLE SITUATION, that just saying that it’s terrible achieves little. Of course ONE ARAB LIFE = ONE ISRAELI LIFE. Of course THERE IS NO MONOPOLY ON PAIN. It’s absolutely amazing to be compassionate and to be humanitarian but the solution cannot be found by compassion alone. We can’t just say “Come on, can’t you see all the people who are dying, just sort this out now and come to a fair agreement.” The people who feel the most pain are those who live in the Middle East now. Literally everyone in Israel and everyone in the West Bank + Gaza Strip will have known someone who has died because of this conflict. It’s gone on too long just to expect these recent deaths to make a large difference to those who have grown up knowing no other way of life.
My point is that as great as human compassion is, it will not solve the problem. A POLITICAL solution is necessary.
The main contentious issues are the following:
a) The Right to Return for Palestinian Refugees. The Problem: If Israel grants this right then it will not be the Jewish State for much longer. Even at the current birth rate, there will be an Arab majority in Israel in less than a hundred years. Palestinians demand this because they want to return home and because other Arab countries will not take them in. How can this be resolved?
b) The creation of an Independent Palestinian State. Not such a problem because Israel is NOT against this. The only real problem is that they cannot achieve this until the violence ends and there is too much bitterness for that to happen right now. But potentially soluble.
c) The issue of land ‘won’ by Israel during wars fought with its Arab neighbours. I.e. The Golan Heights. Well this is a problem because of the implication on water resources and because the land has now been settled and is very dear to Israel. Obviously the Palestinians want it returned. Again I don’t know if there is a solution to this because I’m fairly sure that Israel will not give all of this land back whether it is breaking UN resolutions or not (and it is).
d) East Jerusalem and the governance of Jerusalem in general. Big problem. Been one from the start, since the days when Jerusalem was a divided city. Obviously the problem involves issues of religious sites. I heard one solution that Israel should get the land below the Temple Mount (where the foundations of the Second Temple are) and the Palestinians should get control of the top of it where the Dome of the Rock and the El-Asqa (??) Mosque is. This is a big problem though.
e) Israeli Settlements: shouldn’t be too much of a problem as new settlements are not currently being built (even with Sharon) although old ones are being expanded. Within the framework of a good peace plan though this would not be a main problem.
f) Israeli security - i.e secure borders and a guarantee that Islamic Fundamentalist Movements such as Hizbollah/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/El-Asqa Brigade etc will not carry out terrorism within Israel. This is possible if there is a good peace plan again. But you must remember that some of these organisations genuinely want the destruction of the Jewish State and its entire replacement with a Palestinian one. They are not just fighting for their freedom (macca).
Right so those are the main issues. I don’t know if that makes it look optimistic at all - personally I don’t think it does. So if you want to discuss the possibility of peace and a plan for peace then what are your suggestions?
i would like to here from the jews and arabs among you… what would you like to see done… it is all very well outsiders implimenting their ideas… but if the actual races dont accept it, then they are going to get no-where… so what do you think??
I am a Jew.