It is easier to buy fish then to learn how to fish.

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

In today’s society this expression is exeedingly prevalent; from take out to increasing gas prices to the new fresh scented wet toilet paper dispencers. So why is this? Why are we becoming increasingly more lazy?

Now, no we arent becoming more lazy, in fact we still have construction workers and we still have strong thinkers and creative geniuses, but the gap between the producer and the consumer is definately increasing.

I remember an old saying and I don’t remember the exact words but I do remember the point, anyways:
“Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for day, teach a man to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime.”

When was the last time you went fishing? And was it to eat? At least for survival? When was the last time you went out to eat and you ordered fish? Or the supermarket?

My point is I don’t think anyone is better than another I just think some are lazier than others. The producer goes out and fishes for your meal and therefor gets to take your money because you don’t know how to do so yourself and this could even be used as a type of control but thats another topic. Take Zarathustra for example: Zarathustra walks down from his mountain and tries to explain his reflection on the world to the others and they laugh at him right? Why?

Instantly you may think: “Oh it’s because Zarathustra is misunderstood and his genious is much better than those listening to him.” Or is it another producer consumer relationship? Are the others laughing because its actually Zarathustra thats the fool?

Think about it this way:
There is a room full of people with frowns looking for a smile, right? A person with a smile walks into the room and guess who is now the most popular person around? The person with the smile. How long do you think this smile lasts before this smile eventually joins the rest of the frowns waiting for another smile? It doesn’t matter how long the smile lasts but that the smile won’t last.

It seems Zarathustra learned how to fish in a society full of hungry people who don’t even want to learn how to fish because they would rather just buy their fish from him. They laugh not because they dont understand but because they completely understand but don’t want him to know because if they did he wouldn’t go back to his mountian to think up some more genious.

We are becoming more and more comfortable with the assumption that there will always be someone or something to do everything for us. From construction to technology to economy, to science, to thinking and even to wiping our butts (wet jet toilets).

Zarathustra was a fool literally controled by the very people he thought didn’t understand him.

“Better you do it than me.”

2

i agree with you on many points, and i think that this topic has great potential.

however i believe you lost sight of the fact that we simply cannot fish…

There was a point where when they broke the ground to build a mass production facility there was then not enough wildlife to sustain the masses. there was a point of no return and we have crossed it.

In the olden (real olden) days “citys” (i.e the largest human “settlements”) were actually just shanty towns. not unline mexico city, these towns eixsted because there were alot of people and well, people heard together (not unlike sheep which will bring me to another point). The thing is that these large shanty town cities did not last because the land simply could not suopport such a concentration of people. When you think of new york city, they would have to actively hunt the whole of north america to provide enough meat for their population alone. We do not have the option to provide for ourselves now…

The next point i would like you to focus on is the sheep like nature of human beings. Not to say we will faint at the drop of a hat ( :-k ), but if you look to your left and see a man sitting a couch eating butter-fingers look to your right and see a woman perming your hair, then look down at your plate and see a big plate of nachoes smuthered in melted cheeze, chances are that not only would you not complain (accepting your role as the sheep in a flock provided for by outside producers) but chances are that you would fight to maintain that situation…

Indeed the pur societies are abusing the producers (i.e the third world nations), but it’s not because we are lazy or ignorant.

I had this argument with a fellow student in my mass media class…

Ignorant sheep he called them.

i object. “Ignorant” implies that these sheep ignore reason. that it’s their fault they are “stupid”.

In truth, these sheep are led as a flock, guided and directed by the sheppards.

The sheppards seldom exist in the form of a man, as man rarely attains that level of power.

These sheppards are things like cultural bias, media exposure and circulation of culture, a massive group underlying concencus that “we want more” justifies life, and last but not least, that glistening and delicious plate of nachoes…

3

I disagree. There was a film that came out not too long ago called the 11th hour and it states that all forms of life rely on energy; that until oil we relied on sun energy and once oil runs out we will again rely on sun energy or other forms of energy therefor reducing or increasing our population due to energy resource. The earth and its ecosystems will fluxuate accordingly like it has for millions of years.

If you want to get personal I honestly would rather hunt or fish for my food rather then eat a sloppy bowl of nachos. Im not only complaining about my nachos but fighting against them infatically. I find my plate of nachos repulsive. As if direct proof of my prison cell created by money grubbing producers like exxon or mobil.

I really do think that it is not only their fault for being stupid but they chose to be stupid and don’t care about it and even go as far as being proud of it. Someone who honestly cared about not being stupid would find the information and educate themselves. Yes if you learn how to fish and don’t tell anyone you are the biggest fishing industry in the world, but as soon as someone else finds out how to fish you now have competition … and the rest are just mindless mouths to feed chosing not to think for themselves.

My biggest question though is who is the fool in this equation? The hard worker/strong mind who discovered how to fish or the lazy consumer just sitting back and feeding off of the producer’s hard work?

4

I could start an entire debate with you about how it’s not the masses fault for acting like dumbs masses, but thats for another thread (or is it)

Your only question… who is the fool?

the producer is the fool if he is abused by the masses, but he is even more so a fool for feeding the masses and allowing them to continue.

The consumer is less of a fool because he gets the long end of the stick through an easy plate of nachoes, but he is the grand fool for being the slob in the first place.

The producer is the enabler and the consumer is the addict.

The only questions that remains for me (a moot one) is what is the drug?

ill answer it because im like that…

the drug is ever changing. religion, material goods, entertainment. the drug paralell is quite apt.

5

I dont know anymore what needs to be done.

However, I think the less we want things, the sooner these questions would go away. Fade away.

Progress? Evolution?The inevitable? Could we even choose against it if seemed like the better thing to do?

Sometimes I wish i was an inanimate object, like a desk, so that I didn’t have contemplate my energy levels and compare them with people who keep moving and building the nations that I must then depend on.

The shade of the tree is nice enough.

6

No lets hear it.

7

Many people in this country believe you must advance and progress, with dreams of more advancement and more progress. This type of busy activity not only perverts the idea of time, it is fueled by the fear of death. Not only that, but progress could more than likely mean ultimate destruction.

So it is with the lazy man, that one should let the lazy example be something they admire and can learn from.

I buy fish. I buy fish from a store. You could say that I depend on it being there. But that wouldn’t be the entire truth. If it wasn’t there, sure, i might learn to fish myself. But the more than likely scenario, in my case, is that i would learn to go without the fish. I would look else where to fill my needs, by way of the path of least resistance and the least effort principle.

Just know this, there is a difference in wanting to be prodcutive, and being conditioned to be a productive person who values productivity. The latter warps the mind.

The idea that people are responsible for pulling their own weight is a joke. Gravity always wins.

8

I’m glad I have an army of slaves fishing for my $.

I can do more useful things than fishing like reading a book on science or critical thinking.

But for the record, I come from a long line of filthy hick fishermen, and have been on a lobster boat more than once, and i’m not too bad with a rod, either.’


THE SEA IS MY MOTHER!

9

Ahh, so many people that say sleeping in the wilderness was so much better. Technology has weakend humanity, We should forgo the wicked ways of the present and become what our ancestors were. A true community where everyone has the same edge the same amount of things, equality for all humans we must give up all so that all can have nothing.
These people say things like this and they use computers they sleep in beds under nice roofs eat decent food choose to walk or drive or ride, they bathe in warm water free from parasites. Ahh to be a civilized techno rebel socialist. you get the best of both worlds.

Well cities are not called concrete jungles for nothing. People still hunt and work for their daily bread. Check the economy more people now have to have two jobs just to pay one bill, has not really changed much since horse and buggy days They worked one job harder and now its two jobs instead of just one but, the same amount of time is still invested on the average. They got fleas and ticks, cities get cockroaches and rats. Some knew to plant corn and did great,while others planted lettuce and lost their shirts, now its guess which employer won’t lay you off. No significant difference. Instead of fending off wild animals people now fend off telemarketers and criminals. Some are poor some are rich some rich become poor and some poor become rich.

Things don’t change just the names places and objects. I don’t know why people think the old days were so much better. they lived shorter lives, they would have been thrilled to have things we have now. kids actually might get a real education rather than learn the same job their parents did. sure there are alot of poor people , well gee its called population increase and resources are not ample nor easy to get, no different then the old days.

Choices have increased and thats about it. And that is what our ancestors fought for, for us to have more choices. So quit sniveling and make them proud of you, make the right choices and be better at least try. Quit whining about life, it has not really changed.

10

Whoa whoa whoa. You have officially crossed the line and allow me to bring you back to it because the world has changed. Lets see. I can tell you right off the bat that our ancestors did not know what they were fighting for. We as their children are just now realizing our ancestors mistakes. Just because we fight doesn’t mean we get the glory of justification. Fighting in most cases is a senseless act. Our ancestors made mistakes and now we are trying to fix them. Yes to pospone the end is quite dumb but its also positive. I mean have you personally talked with your ancestors? The time is now and your ancestors aren’t living in it. They were fighting for a better future yes but they still didn’t know what that would be. Now if your going to steriotype me as some “sleeping in the wilderness loving person” you can back off because I do support a proporous now just not the way we as western thought are handling it. Scientists as we speak are devising different ways of harnessing energy that doesn’t require fossil fuel. I don’t think we should go back to the old days but that we should become a more concious society as whole as opposed to the ones who know and the ones who sit back and are force fed by the ones who know because it seems that the who are in power actually have no clue what the crap is going on! They concern themselves with money and forget about everything else like terms like “renewable resources”. They just don’t care about anyone but themselves and they run our countries. As we speak there are people in our governments being paid to fight to put corperate media in power as opposed to intelligent thinkers concerned with wordly matters. Im sure our ancestors are loving that one. The only reason why there are cities is because we can shove billboards in their face about boob jobs. So people go on working two jobs to aford senseless things like the oreo pizza cake and toilet paper pre-scented. Not to mention the ridiculously over priced clothing and food markets. Why? So the rich can get richer while the poor get pooerer. We have lost our sense of balance, Kriswest and our ancestors started it. Thank you and good night. Wow, please don’t disrespect me like that again. I don’t snivel. Our current governments do.

11

Theres nothing pretty about nature.

Unless you like being covered in horribly biting bugs that spread parasites, covered with horrible sores, foot rot.

yeah, the wild sucks to live in.

12

Sorry the whining part was not directed soley at you, it was not an insult it was more of a direction. i apologize if you took it as such.

The poor get poorer? Dude how can you get poorer then starving and homeless? For me to feel any more then a small amount of pity for the poor they need to start being better at spending their money. Its not hard and it does not take a high school diploma to shop and consume carefully rather than buy at a whim and because the neighbors have it. The amount of poor people is staggering but the amount of their piss poor spending is even worse. You can’t blame the wealthy for how the poor spend. Have you ever seen how foodstamps actually get spent? When my husband and i first started off he lost his job I had left mine to raise our son. We were temporarily broke. I went on foodstamps. the ladies at the check out counters actually thanked me for spending the stamps on real food, generic and in bulk. I made the most of it.

I was informed that most do not do that. They buy brand names, buy expensive meats, crap junk food and prepared foods.(frozen dinners etc…). I started paying attention after that. Very very few people on foodstamps in the three states that I have lived in have ever purchased food like I did. And Welfare checks were spent just as carelessely It was just like the checkout ladies told me. Within in a few months we were off any assistance program because we made the most of what we had and worked our butts off. Now over 2 decades later we are not wealthy , we are lower middle class but, we own 10 acres in land have no major debt other than the mortgage and electric bill. We don’t make great money but with intelligent spending, we manage to have luxuries. We are not college people. I am a high school dropout. My husband barely graduated high school.
Sorry to be cold about it but, the only poor I pity are the kids. We donate money and time to children’s charities for poor and abused kids, we rebuild discarded bikes and toys for local poor kids who otherwise won’t get any. My husband rebuilds computers so that poor families around here with kids can have some chance at learning, using the net and educational programs. Computers are a luxury but, kids need them for education thanks to school policies.You want me to sit in judgement of the wealthy getting wealthier and the poor getting poorer , well fine, I judge that the poor are mostly to blame for their state because I see that most poor find it easier to be in that state, then thinking and working hard.

13

Theres somthing seriously wrong with you Kris.

Not all poor people have equal oppertunity, not all poor people live free of disease/infection, the list goes on.

I know a lot of people who work like 3 jobs and still don’t have enough to pay the bills, so you’re full of shit.

14

Then they move to a better location, I presume they have legs and feet and can walk across the country like in the old days. Or they learn to spend more wisely. Sorry still no pity for the adults just the kids.

15

Well then you’re an idiot, because when a single mother needs to raise/take care of three kids, at the same time, its not your fucking place to judge them. You have a husband that barely made it through middleschool, after-all. (think of child medical expenses, idiot)

Yeah, things don’t get miraculously cheaper when you decide to head out in a random direction.

16

Plenty of single mothers world wide get their kids to better locations, A single mother has kids on SSI or welfare. which case the Gov’t picks up the bill. If they can’t abstain from sex then then charities such as Planned parenthood picks up the bill for Birthcontrol. Sorry i can’t pity anyone that deliberately chooses to put kids in such a position. Now if that mother spent wisely worked hard and got training to get a better job as many do, then I applaud her and would help her. But the others, fuck them.

It is my fucking place to judge. Its my fucking tax money. Its a fucking hard life boo fucking hoo. Education or lack of it does not mean lack of intelligence. You obviously lack intelligence because you wish to wipe people’s asses intead of making them wipe their own fucking ass. So you know what? your lamebrain idiotic moronic dumbass arguments can get shoved up your ass for all I really care. You have a problem not me. I would teach people to fish not fucking give them a fucking fish. If they can’t fucking learn, then fuck them I won’t waste my time. So go shove your ideas where the sun don’t shine and kiss your own ass because you are not good enough to kiss mine.

17

Kris your tax money goes to a lot of other worse things then someones survival. War, pointless space operations, politician parties, ect. If the poor did not have that kind of support, they would be thrust on the streets where they would confront you in a number of ways on your trip to the grocery store. I really dont think you want that.

About the ancients being proud about our technologies, I dont think they understood the nuclear bomb, or the dependence on anything that does harm to us, and yet we cant let go it, until all people let go of it. Dont you think there is more of chance of the future civilization being ashamed of us than the ancients being proud? I do. I think they will be a confused bunch.

We are at a critical junction in “progress” since many of the technologies that have led to us “living better” have now led toother technologies that do us more harm then good, and only suggest futher threats to come. There is a diference between picking up speed for better living, and going too fast where civilization is in jeopardy. You must recognize that difference.

The idea of me using a computer to bash technology, progress, advancement does more than suggest my hypocritical nature, it also is an example of how I must depend on something for my survival that is not part of my indvidual, dare I say, choices. That dependence is dangerous, especially once computers that making a lot more decisions for us.

Y3k?

18

Nano, my friend I am all for welfare foodstamps, section8 housing and SS as hand ups not hand outs. I happily pay taxes for these. We all need help from time to time, there is no shame in needing other people’s help. Its the chronic blatant abuse of these things that piss me off.

yes dependence is a problem. But, that too is a choice. If one truly believes in issues then jeez practice what you preach. Here in the US we are allowed to gather in public and speak. We can make quite a mark when we speak up. if you cannot speak out in the country of your choice and must hide. Well damn, then you need to either quit groaning or actually do something rather than wait for someone else to do it. Technology, is not the problem, it is the ostrich syndrome that is the problem.

19

let’s watch the name calling please…

-Imp

20

Well this is a grand topic, and i’m, afraid my half-assed approach method might not do it justice.

here goes.

First of all we are born into this society. We did not create it for ourselves. This fact alone adds a meter to the fence around us.

We have no reason when we mature into adults to abandon the way we have done things since birth. In this way the odds are already staggered against someone breaking free of the consumer/producer delimma.

Next there is the fact that humans are social beings. We would probably only seriously consider something like moving into the wilderness is all of our friends and relatives were doing it. Why would we want to live alone in the middle of nowhere?

In that sense you can tack on another meter to the fence which keeps us from straying.

Next there is sheer ability. I’m sure that there would be many people attempting such missions simply if it was not so difficult to do.

Surviving alone in th wilderness is incredibly difficult and requires not only an affinity for nature but years of experience and training. Sure this doesn’t stop people from trying but odds are that they would die. They also probably don’t even have the resources necessary to set ones self up in the wilderness comfortably, or they might even have debts which prevent them from doing something like that. And most importantly, theres not enough wilderness for all of us. tack on another meter.

Now we get into the dar stuff.

The masses are addicted to their consumer positions. Our society built on producer/consumer relationships has been so successful that almost every person within it has become completely addicted to their life-styles. One of the effects of advertisements is that you want what you see. Tack on another meter.

A latent affect of advertisements is that it makes people stupid. Doctors think kids have “A.D.D” simply because they can’t focus on anything that isnt bright red and flashing. tack on an electrified meter, (this is where our apparant ignorance comes from)

And lastly, the government doesn’t want us to go to the wilderness. They want us to be good little future robots so we are groomed in school and kept inline with the debt system, food prices, and pieces of steak in the form of 4 wheelers ans sea-doos. Add the final meter with barbed wire at the top.

Note: you don’t have to think of it as “going into the wild” but simply as a way of extraditing yourself from the consumer position.

Intelligent people are NOT a dime a dozen. people who think about their position in society and morality of said position are probably 1 in a hundred.

someone who acts on those thoughts are probably 1 in 1000, making the odds of an intelligent person extraditing himself from the consumer relationship 1 in 100 000.

The odds are simply to great.

So the next time you want to consider the masses ignorant or lazy, remember that you can’t climb the fence either.