IT'S ABSURD!! THE ATHEISTIC VIEW OF CONSCIOUSNESS

IT’S ABSURD!!! WHY SHOULD THE BRAIN GIVE RISE TO CONSCIOUSNESS, AND WHY SHOULD CONSCIOUSNESS NECESSARILY BE A REPRESENTATION OF THE EXTERNAL WORLD???


This article is dedicated with the highest respect to an unofficial mentor, David J. Chalmers (pictured above with brain). Without him, the author would to this day remain in philosophical darkness.

Atheism is defined simply as disbelief in the existence of a God, gods, goddesses, and spirits (with spirits potentially worshipped as deities). It means nothing more than that. However, the belief is not quarantined, as the atheist possesses additional beliefs concerning the world and how it operates that stroll behind disbelief in the existence of God like children behind a parent. These “descendent” beliefs, implying the existence of an atheistic world yet uninvolved in the basic definition of atheism collectively constitute an atheistic propositional family.

[b]A propositional family is a “family” of beliefs related in the sense that a belief within the propositional family will logically imply the others (if the relevant beliefs collectively and individually obey the law of non-contradiction). The primary directive of a propositional family is to describe the nature of the world in which an individual exists. For example, the beliefs that make up an atheistic propositional family supposedly answers a basic question posed by the atheist: “I believe that God does not exist, yet what type of godless world do I inhabit?”

It can be argued that stereotypical atheism is instantly recognized by the vastly popular and nearly universally held beliefs of it’s propositional family. Of interest to this paper is stereotypical atheism in terms of it’s beliefs concerning the nature, limitations, and eventual fate of consciousness within a world in which God does not exist.[/b]

Important To Remember While Reading This Article:[b] Most philosophers speak of consciousness and the concept of simulated reality as if they are two distinct existences----yet consciousness is a simulated reality, one that “simulates” or accurately represents an external world that is believed to exist independent of conscious experience. If every living organism in the universe were to simultaneously lose the capacity for consciousness five seconds from ‘now‘, the external world is believed to be that which would remain.

A conscious being is actually a “first-person Player Character” within a “video or role-playing game” (whose appearance and behavior more or less accurately mimics the world believed to exist beyond the “video/role-playing game”) that is believed to erupt into “play” if electric activity exists within the cerebral cortex.

Thus, humans only perceive and exist within a ‘virtual’ counterpart to the ‘real world’ beyond consciousness. For example, a conscious being only perceives the ‘virtual’ trees rather than external world trees, ‘virtual’ brains rather than external world brains (typically observed within medical and neuroscientific context), and the ‘virtual’ experience of gravitation.[/b]

[b]However, if one chooses to subscribe only to stereotypical atheism and it’s propositional family, when it comes to consciousness certain members within the family are remarkable for their assumptions concerning the nature of subjective existence—uncompromising concerning their assumption of the conditions that determine the origin, maintenance, and termination of consciousness.

These consciousness-explaining beliefs are detailed below as three tenets that decree the nature and limitations of consciousness:[/b]

[b]The Three Central Tenets Concerning The Existence And Nature Of Consciousness According To Stereotypical Atheism

  1. The physical, biological brain is the currently existing known creator of consciousness

  2. The brain causes consciousness to come into existence from a previous nonexistence of that consciousness. This previous nonexistence is negatively inferred from the seeming “fact” that consciousness ceases to exist at death (the cessation of electrical activity within the neocortex due to sudden destruction and/or dissolution of the brain)

  3. Human sensory perception(and presumably the sensory perception of most non-human organisms), primarily visual perception, presents a relatively accurate representation or facsimile of the appearance and behavior of the external world believed to exist beyond the existence of any and all consciousness[/b]


TENET ONE: The physical, biological brain is the currently existing known creator of consciousness

"It is widely accepted that conscious experience has a physical basis. That is, the properties of experience (phenomenal properties, or qualia) systematically depend on physical properties according to some lawful relation.

To put the issue differently, even once it is accepted that experience arises from physical systems, the question remains open: in virtue of what sort of physical properties does conscious experience arise? Some property that brains can possess will presumably be among them, but it is far from clear just what the relevant properties are. Some have suggested biochemical properties; some have suggested quantum-mechanical properties; many have professed uncertainty. A natural suggestion is that when experience arises from a physical system, it does so in virtue of the system’s functional organization."

(Chalmers, David J: Absent Qualia, Fading Qualia, Dancing Qualia, consc.net/papers/qualia.html)

CHALLENGE TO TENET ONE:

[b]One can challenge Tenet One by the observation that there exists insurmountable explanatory gaps in the very notion that a physical object (the brain) possesses the power to give rise to a phenomenon that, according to stereotypical atheism, previously did not exist within the universe before the brain’s electronic operation.

No other entity within the universe is believed (with equal certainty) to possess the ability to create or give rise to subjective experience. Given that a functioning biological brain is still nevertheless a physical object, the dependence of the existence of consciousness upon the later existence of the brain (in comparison to the history of the universe prior to the existence of the first neuron)—given the eternal existence and indestructibility of the physical (as an obvious implication of the first law of thermodynamics) is arguably preliminary evidence that consciousness is a distinct existence from the physical.

However, the physical brain is collocationally unremarkable compared to all other non-brain entities within the universe. A living, functioning brain within a skull is composed of the same building blocks that comprise a brick, car, planet, or galaxy: atoms.[/b]

b The function of the brain is governed by and explicable to physical properties and laws, yet the brain is the only physical object in the universe commonly believed to possess the capacity to produce behavior inexplicable to physical cause and effect.[/b]

"It is widely believed that physics provides a complete catalogue of the universe’s fundamental features and laws. As physicist Steven Weinberg puts it in his 1992 book Dreams of a Final Theory, the goal of physics is a “theory of everything” from which all there is to know about the universe can be derived. But Weinberg concedes that there is a problem with consciousness.

Despite the power of physical theory, the existence of consciousness does not seem to be derivable from physical laws. He defends physics by arguing that it might eventually explain what he calls the objective correlates of consciousness (that is, the neural correlates), but of course to do this is not to explain consciousness itself. If the existence of consciousness cannot be derived from physical laws, a theory of physics is not a true theory of everything. So a final theory must contain an additional fundamental component."

(Chalmers, David J: The Puzzle Of Conscious Experience, consc.net/papers/puzzle.html)

According to a popular and well-known member of the propositional family of stereotypical atheism, consciousness requires a neural correlate of consciousness, such that no conscious experience can exist independently from a pre-existent physical embodiment sustaining electrical activity. This electrical flow transforms a physical representation of an experience into the creator of that experience.

"What does it mean to be a neural correlate of consciousness? At first glance, the answer might seem to be so obvious that the question is hardly worth asking. An NCC is just a neural state that directly correlates with a conscious state, or which directly generates consciousness, or something like that. One has a simple image: when your NCC is active, perhaps, your consciousness turns on, and in a corresponding way. But a moment’s reflection suggests that the idea is not completely straightforward, and that the concept needs some clarification.

As a first pass, we can use the definition of a neural correlate of consciousness given in the program of the ASSC conference. This says a neural correlate of consciousness is a “specific system in the brain whose activity correlates directly with states of conscious experience”. This yields something like the following:

“A neural system N is an NCC if the state of N correlates directly with states of consciousness.”

States of consciousness

(i) Being conscious

“The first option is that the states in question are just those of being conscious and of not being conscious. If the NCC is in a particular state, the subject will be conscious. If the NCC is not in that state, the subject will not be conscious.”

(ii) Background state of consciousness

"A related idea is that of the neural correlate of what we might call the background state of consciousness. A background state is an overall state of consciousness such as being awake, being asleep, dreaming, being under hypnosis, and so on.

A neural correlate of the background state of consciousness, then, will be a neural system N such that the state of N directly correlates with whether a subject is awake, dreaming, under hypnosis, and so on. If N is in state 1, the subject is awake; if N is in state 2, the subject is dreaming; if N is in state 3, the subject is under hypnosis; and so on."

(iii) Contents of consciousness

"There is much more to consciousness than the mere state of being conscious, or the background state of consciousness. Arguably the most interesting states of consciousness are specific states of consciousness: the fine-grained states of subjective experience that one is in at any given time.

Such states might include the experience of a particular visual image, of a particular sound pattern, of a detailed stream of conscious thought, and so on. A detailed visual experience, for example, might include the experience of certain shapes and colors in one’s environment, of specific arrangements of objects, of various relative distances and depths, and so on."

(Chalmers, David J: What Is A Neural Correlate Of Consciousness? consc.net/papers/ncc2.html)

TENET TWO:[b]The brain causes consciousness to come into existence from a previous nonexistence of that consciousness. The nonexistence of subjective experience before it arises from a functioning brain is negatively inferred from the common belief that consciousness ceases to exist at death (the cessation of electrical activity within the neocortex).

One of the most famous beliefs within the propositional family of stereotypical atheism posits the view (taken for granted as absolute truth and propagandized within secular fiction, on-the-street common belief, scientific speculation, and so on) that consciousness is not as eternal and as self-existent as the physical, such that the cessation of the function of an individual brain yields an irreversible cessation of consciousness:[/b]

“Never mind the philosophical implications of death or the religious possibilities inherent in the idea of survival; the horror film suggests we just have a good close look at the physical artifact of death. Let us be children masquerading as pathologists. We will, perhaps, link hands like children in a circle, and sing the song we all know in our hearts: time is short, no one is really okay, life is quick and dead is dead."

(King, Stephen: Danse Macabre, Berkeley Books and Everest House Publishing, 1979, 1982)

If consciousness depends upon the physical in order to exist, then it is commonly taken for granted that the brain must somehow create consciousness ex nihilo, such that the brain, alone of any other entity and causal process in the universe, transcends transformative causation (creation of a new entity through transformation of a pre-existing material) in order to give rise to consciousness.

“Causes of the sort that are acknowledged in everyday experience and in scientific explanations either do not involve conscious agency, or, if they do, they also involve the transformation of some pre-existing material.”

“Either our commonsense intuitions about ordinary intra-mundane cases of causation can reasonably be applied to the beginning of the universe (or to consciousness itself—author’s inclusion within quote), or they cannot be. If they can be, then creation out of some uncreated “stuff” may actually be quite a lot more likely than creation ex nihilo! In our experience of the world, after all, the making of enduring things always involves the transformation of some pre-existent material.”

(Morriston, Wes: Creation Ex Nihilo And The Big Bang, philoonline.org/library/morriston_5_1.htm)

Is The Brain Capable Of The Magic Of “Creation Ex Nihilo”?

It is a popular belief (generally taken for granted as truth until one begins to think philosophically) that the creation of consciousness by the physical brain involves:

b Neural Incantationism (“Brain Magic”)[/b]

[b]Neural incantationism is the common (and strangely popular) belief that the physical brain (analogous to the Christian God’s “word-magic” utilized for the creation of light within the Creation tale of Genesis), somehow possesses the power to cause a previously nonexistent entity (conscious experience) to come into existence through the process of the dynamic “incantation” (hence the term: neural incantationism) of electrical activity within the biological neurons of the cerebral cortex).

Of note in this matter is Adolf Grunbaums’ criticism of God’s existence-causing verbal-magic:[/b]

"As we know from two thousand years of theology, the hypothesis of divine creation does not even envision, let alone specify, an appropriate intermediate causal process that would link the presence of the supposed divine (causal) agency to the effects which are attributed to it.

The Book of Genesis tells us about the divine word-magic of creating photons by saying “Let there be light.” But we aren’t even told whether God said it in Hebrew or Aramaic. I, for one, draw a complete explanatory blank when I am told that God created photons. This purported explanation contrasts sharply with, say, the story of the formation of two photons by conversion of the rest-mass of a colliding electron-positron pair. Thus, so far as divine causation goes, we are being told, to all intents and purposes, that an intrinsically elusive, mysterious agency X inscrutably produces the effect."

(Grunbaum, Adolf: Creation As A Pseudo-Explanation In Current Physical Cosmology, infidels.org/library/modern/explanation.html)

[b]One might accuse Grunbaum of a double-standard as well as logical disconnection, as a believer in neural incantationism proposes that the brain performs the same “non-existence-into-existence” magic as the God of the Bible (conceptually, aside from the difference between verbal speech and electrical flow within a computational component, what is the difference in the inscrutable process that causes a nonexistent entity to begin to emerge into existence?). Grunbaum’s criticism of the irrationality of God’s creation ex nihilo in Genesis applies equally to neural incantationism.

If one takes the logic of the popular view that consciousness only comes into existence when the physical universe produces a biologically functioning brain (and that the same consciousness must cease to exist if that brain should cease to function) all the way, then one would find this logic equal to the logic that one could cause Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny to spontaneously come into existence simply by wagging one’s fingers back and forth (such that a physical object moved in a prescribed manner somehow causes something that previously was as real as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny to become real in comparison to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny).[/b]

The psychophysical view below, in terms of how the physical determines the nature of conscious experience, is estranged from stereotypical atheism (existing within a propositional family of atypical atheism as an unpopular or largely unknown form of psychophysicalism). It fails qualification for membership within stereotypical atheism due to the fact that it dares to propose that consciousness is a conserved quantity (analogous to physical energy), such that consciousness has always existed (as an intrinsic or “internal” property of the physical) from the very beginning.

b Panprotopsychism[/b]

[b]David J. Chalmer’s notion of panprotopsychism conceptually solves the problem of creation ex nihilo as an explanation for the existence of consciousness. Panprotopsychism proposes consciousness to be a non-physical quantity conserved within the physical (such that consciousness is as eternal as the physical) and in a sense phenomenally obeys the first law of thermodynamics (in terms of indestructibility if not the capacity to transform) in the form of microscopic mental “particles” or protophenomena.

If panprotopsychism is true, the necessity for ex nihilo magic for the creation of consciousness dissipates, with consciousness pre-existent at a level so minimal as to be qualitatively indistinguishable from an absence of consciousness (before an accretion of physical material forms a functioning brain, and following cessation of function of the brain). Large conglomerations of micro-consciousnesses collectively combine within a functioning brain in panprotopsychism to give rise to the normal experience of macro-consciousness.[/b]

"Type-F monism is the view that consciousness is constituted by the intrinsic properties of fundamental physical entities: that is, by the categorical bases of fundamental physical dispositions. On this view, phenomenal or protophenomenal properties are located at the fundamental level of physical reality, and in a certain sense, underlie physical reality itself.

This view holds the promise of integrating phenomenal and physical properties very tightly in the natural world. Here, nature consists of entities with intrinsic (proto)phenomenal qualities standing in causal relations within a spacetime manifold. Physics as we know it emerges from the relations between these entities, whereas consciousness as we know it emerges from their intrinsic nature.

As a bonus, this view is perfectly compatible with the causal closure of the microphysical, and indeed with existing physical laws. The view can retain the structure of physical theory as it already exists; it simply supplements this structure with an intrinsic nature. One could give the view in its most general form the name panprotopsychism, with either protophenomenal or phenomenal properties underlying all of physical reality."

(Chalmers, David J: Consciousness And It’s Place In Nature, consc.net/consc-papers.html)

TENET THREE:Sensory perception (primarily visual perception) is a relatively accurate representation or facsimile of the appearance and behavior of the external world beyond conscious experience.

CHALLENGE TO TENET THREE: THE LACK OF A CAUSAL LOGIC EXPLAINING HOW AND WHY CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE MUST BE A FACSIMILE OF THE EXTERNAL WORLD DUE ONLY TO AN EXCHANGE OF FORCES BETWEEN EXTERNAL WORLD BRAINS AND EXTERNAL WORLD ENVIRONMENTS

[b]An anti-facsimile realist (a philosopher who holds that the the appearance and behavior of the external world is wholly distinct from the contents of sensory consciousness) can argue that it is not logically necessary that the only external world that can impose the appropriate forces upon the brain (in order for it normally function within the parameter of Chalmer’s “conditions C”) such that it produces the subjective experience of the world as it in fact is experienced) must be an external world that resembles or represents the contents of the sensory experiences produced from that brain.

One can argue that there exists no logic to the notion that the mere appearance of the external necessitates it’s resemblance in the contents of visual perception, and that the abstract pattern of causal relations within the brain must yield a relatively accurate visual facsimile (and non-visual sensory representation of non-visual aspects) of the external world. Why should the brain, with it’s bizarre appearance (compared to the appearance of the world surrounding it), and it’s particular abstract pattern of causal organization necessarily yield a facsimile or representation of the external world that is believed to exist independently of consciousness itself? Other causal organizations that function in a similar manner to the brain (computers, etc.) do not necessarily yield conscious experience, or necessarily yield a visual facsimile of the world surrounding a brain-like mechanism.

One might argue that there exists no transparent logic to the notion that the magnitude and sequencing of forces exchanged between the brain and the external world must give rise to subjective contents of visual perception that must resemble the external world beyond consciousness. There seems to exist an insurmountable explanatory and logical abyss between the notion of physical forces exchanged between physical objects (external world-brains and external world-environments) and a necessary arousal of subjective experience from the physical object of the brain; the abyss widens in the face of the notion that the particular subjective experiences that arise must mimic an imperceptible world.

A seemingly insurmountable explanatory and logical gap remains between (the conceptual notion of) the appearance of an external object and it’s representation within subjectively experienced visual perception. The necessity of visual representation of the external world fails explanation through holographic representation of the world upon retinas or (subjunctively) neurons, and fails explanation through the forces indirectly yielding latent image representation and electronic intercommunication between external world-objects, and external world-eyes, retinas, and occipital lobes (if these exist).[/b]

FORCE IMPLIES FACSIMILE?

[b]To make matters worse, the notion of ‘force’ (a push or a pull) within the external world beyond consciousness is beyond the comprehension of beings whose only knowledge of reality is “first-person-video-game”-subjective experience: describing or asserting the nature of that which exists forever beyond the information gained while conscious is either a cognitive mistake or an act of meaningless cognitive presumption.

Forces that are consciously experienced are felt as that which are called tactile experiences impinging upon an organism with differing degrees of pressure. Such tactile experiences are accompanied by other experiences such as pain (or abrupt cessation of consciousness), irritation, and pleasure. These tactile experiences are inferred to exist within other conscious beings apart from the subject of experience (an inferred to “exist” within colliding or touching inanimate objects)–as objects and persons are observed to dynamically react to objective attempts to displace their position in space.[/b]


[b]If one accepts psychophysicalism (the view that the physical brain creates and maintains the existence of consciousness), the functioning of the biological brain that is placed in “code” by such terms as: “communication between nerve cells” or “the transmission of information”, is ultimately reduced to a transmission of forces between physical objects.

The brain can be reductively explained as a mechanism that transmits the forces imposed upon it from the environment within a continuous (yet vulnerable) causal loop. These forces affect (in varying degrees) all the virtually innumerable neural components that make up the brain–resulting in a causal feedback in the form of a force exchange between the brain and it’s environment (in the form of the internal physical behavior of the organism upon itself and it’s behavior toward the external world).[/b]

The Quasi-Religiosity Required For A Belief In The Necessary Truth Of Facsimile Realism

[b]As stated before, the concept of ‘force’ within the external world beyond consciousness is arguably incomprehensible—given that the external world and consciousness are conceived to be two very distinct types of existence (that is, one must be conscious in order to experience the world in it’s phenomenal modality: the external world, if it exists or mirrors the contents of consciousness at all, does not require the existence of consciousness in order to exist. It follows, then that one does not transparently reduce to the other).

The causal relationship between two distinct existences (such as the conceivably distinctive existences of consciousness and the ‘physical’ can be argued to be merely speculative and “non-empirical” (as opposed to Chalmer’s “pre-empirical”), straightforwardly requires a quasi-religious faith in the existence of the external world, external world ‘forces’, a causal relationship between the external world and (significantly) human consciousness, and a faith in the a priori necessity of a relative mimicry of the external world (primarily through visual perception) within the contents of consciousness.

Given this, philosophers who deny or who are hesitant to claim with certainty that the external world is necessarily and undeniably represented within sensory perception (with non-sensory cognition and emotion more or less relating to the information gained by the senses) can argue that whatever external world exists may itself (in principle) assume a natural and coincidental or teleologically contrived causal set-up with the brain (including a virtual world containing virtual brains, bodies, and ‘virtual’ psychophysical relations without an external world counterpart) in order to produce a type of world experienced by the “individual” the brain assumes itself to be.[/b]

Questioning The Psychophysical Relation: Why Should Certain Brain-States Yield Certain Conscious-States?

[b]Once the brain fully develops, are it’s neurons relatively immobile? Are synaptic connections between neurons permanently fixed? In terms of an almost outmoded notion of brain development (neural immutability) and expectation of predictable and reproducible psychophysical regularities between brain-states and conscious-states (in order to comprehend the mind/body relation through the reliable prediction of which neural systems will give rise to which conscious experiences). A neurally and synaptically immobilized brain (allowing for minute degrees of neural motion with neurons “swimming” within intercellular fluid) seems required for accurate and reliable prediction of the manifestations of psychophysical law.

Neural immobility would allow differences between NCCs (neural correlates of consciousness) to be explicable only to the number of neurons making up a particular NCC (and the differing types of neurons making up a particular NCC), the position of pre- and post-synaptic connections between each neuron (and glial cell), and their particular location within a given region of the brain. Differences in function between NCCs, (given that all action potentials are identical) would be entailed as differences in chemical distribution per neuron and differences in firing rate.

NCCs within this model are “partnered” with only one conscious experience, a fixed gradient of experiences that collectively summate to form a “complete” experience, or a fixed set of different (yet related) experiences, with differences between experiences determined by differences of firing rate and neurotransmitter location and proportion.

Neural and synaptic immobilization would give rise to a bizarre and intriguing philosophical phenomenon if neural immobilization was the rule of the psychophysical game: Neural Predestination.

Neural predestination (NP) is the view (ensured by neural immobilization) that one’s entire past, present, and future is “predestined through neural prepackage within brain structure. If new neurons fail to emerge within the fully developed brain (asserted by anti-neurogenesis philosophy) and there are no changes to the positionings of synaptic connection between neurons, then the immutable neurons that mature and survive development of the adult brain and their distinctive neural systems handle the entire destiny of a living organism, such that the NCCs within a given brain are predestinators that await universal causal momentum to activate the proper firing rates, firing sequences, and chemical proportions giving rise to corresponding future experience.

For example, the NCCs that correspond to the experience of an individual’s seventieth birthday party pre-exists within the brain even while the individual is currently only twenty years of age (according to the neural immobilization model). These “seventieth-birthday” neurons can be fancifully imagined to not fire for seventy years, yet Hebb’s rule prevents such procrastination. It would be more likely that the relevant NCCs survive through preoccupation with the formation of other experiences, firing at different rates and different neurotransmitter proportion and distribution until the appointed time (the fateful birthday party).[/b]

The “seventieth-birthday” NCC or NCCs activate at the proper time, with the effects of aging upon the relevant cells forming the final piece of the puzzle of one’s neural predestination.

Neural Predestination Through Laplace’s Determinism

Neural predestination (with or without neural immobilization) is written in stone if Laplacean Determinism is true. Laplacean Determinism (derived from the deterministic philosophy of Pierre-Simon Laplace, b.1749- d.1827) is the view that the universe is physically construed in such a way that there exists mechanical principles in place which constrain the universe to travel only one possible causal path.

[b]If Laplacean Determinism is true, then the death of John Lennon, for example, is the only possible future outcome even from the moment of the Big Bang.]

However, discoveries within neuroscience, old and new, shatter the chimerical dream of neural predestination through neural immobilization (one can argue that neural predestination continues to exist, albeit in a different form). Contrary to the outmoded view that new neurons do not form within the brain upon adult development, empirical evidence of the existence of neurogenesis challenges views of neuronal immutability:[/b]

“Adult neurogenesis is a recent example of a long-held scientific theory being overturned, with the phenomenon only recently being largely accepted by the scientific community. Early neuroanatomists, including Santiago Ramon y Cajal, considered the nervous system fixed and incapable of regeneration. For many years afterward, only a handful of biologists (including Joseph Altman, Shirley Bayer, and Michael Kaplan) considered adult neurogenesis a possibility. Only recently, with the characterization of neurogenesis in birds and the use of confocal microscopy, has it become reasonably well-accepted that hippocampal neurogenesis does occur in mammals, including humans (Eriksson et al., 1998; Gould et al., 1999a).”

(Wikipedia Article: Neurogenesis, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis)

"There is good evidence that changes within the nervous system are induced internally not only via the acquisition of new information (learning or change in software) expressed in changes in electric and chemical signals, but also in changes in structure. Nerve cells and synaptic connections between them form and break down over time.

The nervous system is not static. We know that synapses constantly break down and form anew. Each time a nerve cell dies, thousands of synaptic connections are destroyed. Learning also reflects in anatomy as new synapses, connections, form. You lose mental capacity with age, Alzheimer disease through the misuse of drugs and degeneration you are really destroying more and more synaptic connections between neurons. Thus although you generally lose neurons with time and with them abundant synapses, you form others through learning and mental exercise. If you continue to learn as you age by doing problems, reading, and expanding your vocabulary, you will form new synapses. Adult life is a race between neuronal loss and synapse formation."

(Yanofsky, Charles: Beyond Biology, pneuro.com/publications/insi … part2.html)

Given the constant state of flux within affected areas of the brain, one seems forced to abandon the notion of neural predestination altogether, as it seems that NP depends upon neural and synaptic immutability and immobilization. However, there arguably remains a quasi-indeterministic neural predestination (QINP) if Laplacean Determinism is true (in which NP continues to exist independent of human prediction, with unknowable neural mutation, neurogenesis, and functional change nevertheless following a Laplacean causal maze).

A Challenge To Laplace’s Determinism: Gouldian Indeterminism

Laplacean Determinism is challenged by Gouldian Indeterminism (derived from the statements of Stephen J. Gould within his article: The Evolution Of Life On Earth:slight_smile:

"Homo sapiens did not appear on the earth, just a geologic second ago, because evolutionary theory predicts such an outcome based on themes of progress and increasing neural complexity. Humans arose, rather, as a fortuitous and contingent outcome of thousands of linked events, any one of which could have occurred differently and sent history on an alternative pathway that would not have led to consciousness."

“This point needs some belaboring as a central yet widely misunderstood aspect of the world’s complexity. Webs and chains of historical events are so intricate, so imbued with random and chaotic elements, so unrepeatable in encompassing such a multitude of unique (and uniquely interacting) objects, that standard models of simple prediction and replication do not apply.”

"History can be explained, with satisfying rigor if evidence be adequate, after a sequence of events unfolds, but it cannot be predicted with any precision beforehand. Pierre-Simon Laplace, echoing the growing and confident determinism of the late 18th century, once said that he could specify all future states if he could know the position and motion of all particles in the cosmos at any moment, but the nature of universal complexity shatters this chimerical dream. History includes too much chaos, or extremely sensitive dependence on minute and unmeasurable differences in initial conditions, leading to massively divergent outcomes based on tiny and unknowable disparities in starting points."

(Gould, Stephen J: The Evolution Of Life On Earth, geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ … gould.html)

[b]Despite Gould’s observation of the inherent unpredictability of the physical chaos that underlies natural process, one can argue that Gouldian indeterminism is ultimately an illusion that hides an underlying Johnny-On-The-Spot Determinism (and in a psychological sense, a further johnny-on-the-spot predestination). This type of “determinism” (and psychological predestination) is derived from the notion of the causal determination of that which becomes actual on a second-to-second basis as opposed to that which continues to exist only in potential.

If two or more states are possible before an event occurs, the state which becomes actual is the “deterministic” state—in the sense that it has been determined from the operation of antecedent causes to become the “winner” causally selected for actuality from the well of potentiality.

This johnny-on-the-spot determinism can be argued to defeat Gouldian Indeterminism through the observation that regardless of human unpredictability of the “fortuitous and contingent outcome of thousands of linked events” and the “extremely sensitive dependence on minute and immeasurable difference in initial conditions”, the physical players involved in the deterministic game raging beyond human observation and prediction is bound to derive a causal “winner” that flaunts the trophy of actuality over potential existence.

In terms of brain operation, a johnny-on-the-spot determinism exists in the form of a contingent and vulnerable Laplacean Determinism (as one can argue that Laplacean Determinism exists at least within the concept of the machine) in which:[/b]

b neural function is constrained to “normal functioning” within a spectrum of possible brain-states that allow: (a) adequate representation of external reality (if facsimile realism is true), and: (b) unanimous reality consensus between beings observing the same representation of the external world (which conceptually determines that one‘s representational perception of the external world is “adequate“).[/b]

"One might take the moral of the above to be that one cannot require an NCC to correlate with consciousness in “unnatural” cases. What matters is that the NCC correlates with consciousness is “natural” cases, those that actually occur in the functioning of a normal brain. the most conservative strategy would be to require correlation only across cases involving a normally functioning brain in a normal environment, receiving “ecologically valid” inputs of the sort received in a normal life.

The trouble with this criterion is that it seems too weak to narrow down the NCC. The reason is that in normal cases all these will be linked in a straightforward causal chain, and the systems in question will not be dissociated. But it seems wrong to say that merely because of this, all the systems (perhaps even the retina) should count as an NCC.

The moral of this is that we need a correlation across a range of unusual cases as well as across normal cases, as it is these cases that yield interesting dissociations.

The central case of the neural correlate of the content of consciousness can be put in more specific terms. An NCC (for content) is a minimal neural representational system N such that representation of a content in N is sufficient, under conditions C, for representation of that content in consciousness."

(Chalmers, David J: What Is A Neural Correlate Of Consciousness? consc.net/papers/ncc2.html)

A simple rule emerges, manifest within a vulnerable Laplacean determinism that governs any future mutation or functional wonder of the brain (with mutation of the human brain the most significant example); the brain must, despite any future changes to the brain through evolutionary mutation or neurogenesis, continue to reflect and represent the external world (if facsimile realism is true) or at the least to continue to agree with reports of a consensus reality (if facsimile realism is false and the world exists within a realm of non-representational foundationalism (which supports skeptical or metaphysical hypotheses such as The Brain-In-A-Vat, The Matrix, or The Evil Genius)

The notion of consensus reality (inferred to exist due to verbal reports of different beings reporting similar experience and physical behavior implying that different beings are experiencing the same object and event) functions as preliminary (conceptual) evidence that if the brain is indeed responsible for the existence of consciousness, then a primary demarcation of a “normally” functioning brain is appropriate representation of the external world inferred through agreement with a consensus of beings claiming similarity of experience. Any change in the structure and function of the brain through evolutionary mutation or neurogenetic incidence is adopted into the family of “normal function” of the brain if it does not radically alter representation of the external world and if it continues to allow the mutated organism to perceptually agree with a consensus reality.

The Irrationality Of A Belief In The A Priori Necessity Of Conscious Representation Of The External World

[b]Facsimile Realism (the view that consciousness—particularly human visual perception–more or less exists as a facsimile or representation of the external world beyond consciousness) is logically coherent and insists that it is an “obvious” truth, so much so that it is generally taken for granted as an unquestioned axiom of the nature of existence. Remarkably, it is commonly accepted that FR is the only possible subjective outcome of a particular causal set-up between the external world and external-world brains.

However, one can argue that the notion of the a priori necessity of the existence of Facsimile Realism is illogical. While it is logical to assert the the logical and metaphysical possibility of FR, it is not logical to assert it’s epistemic and a priori necessity (such that it is not rational to claim that one has certain knowledge that FR cannot possibly be false).

To clarify, it is necessary to posit a disambiguation:[/b]

b An argument against the a priori necessity for the psychophysical partnerships in actual mind/body relationships simply asks the question of why and if the neural systems that emerge within the natural selection for the human brain must give rise to the very experiences that in fact are experienced within the ‘real world’— with such experiences being the only possible experiences that can arise from the brain, with such a psychophysical restriction existing before the existence of the brain itself?

(2) One can argue that there exists a yawning logical and explanatory abyss between the type of psychophysical partnerships that exist and the notion that they must be what they are if and when brains come into existence—if one derives the belief in an a priori necessity for the (a posteriori nature of) psychophysical partnerships from neural incantationism.

(3) The gap is not so wide if one invokes Chalmer’s panprotopsychism, yet one can ask the question of why the psychophysical partnerships derived from panprotopsychism must be what they are before the physical existence of brains. Why should the “correct” protophenomena be present within the particles that make up human and animal brains (operating with “normal function“, to yield the varying and relative dimensions of the representational perception of the external world?[/b]

Pre-Conclusion: The Absurdism Underlying The Relationship Between Consciousness And The Physical And Facsimile Realism

“How did I get into the world? Why was I not asked about it and why was I not informed of the rules and regulations but just thrust into the ranks as if I had been bought by a peddling shanghaier of human beings? How did I get involved in this big enterprise called actuality? Why should I be involved? Isn’t it a matter of choice? And if I am compelled to be involved, where is the manager—I have something to say about this. Is there no manager? To whom shall I make my complaint?”

–Kierkegaard, Søren. Repetition in Kierkegaard’s Writings, vol. 6, Princeton University Press, 1983

“Heidegger coined the term “thrownness” (also used by Sartre) to describe this idea that human beings are “thrown” into existence without having chosen it. Existentialists consider being thrown into existence as prior to, and the horizon or context of, any other thoughts or ideas that humans have or definitions of themselves that they create.”

(Wikipedia article: Existentialism, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism)

The Real Core Of The Mind/Body Problem: Psychophysical “Thrownness”

In review, several (conceptual) facts concerning the brain, the psychophysical relation, and the external world beyond consciousness must be placed upon the table in order to better demonstrate an underlying absurdism in the concept of the very nature of the psychophysical partnerships themselves—and to demonstrate the absence of an epistemic necessity and logic to the notion that the causal interaction between external-world environments and external world-brains necessitates external world-representation in conscious experience.


The Absurdity Of Facsimile Realism

The inherent absurdity of Facsimile Realism can perhaps be demonstrated by serious attention to objections to the claim that conscious experience must represent the appearance and behavior of the external world beyond consciousness:

b The brain i[/i] looks or appears nothing like the external world surrounding it. Neurons i[/i] are not the same in terms of appearance and substance as the subjective experiences to which their electronic function is believed to give rise. The external world would not typically be imagined to bear the same appearance as the external world-brain that it imposes upon to produce conscious experience.

(2) There has not been observed a representation of external world objects within neurons themselves. The only direct image representation of the external world within a living organism seems to be the holographic latent image formed upon the retina due to refraction of light within the cornea, lens, and aqueous humor of the eye.

The significance of the retina to visual perception requires the transformation of light energy into chemical and electrical energy within the retinal rods and cones, to initiate an action potentials within the optic nerve that travel to the brain’s occipital lobe. Without this electrical “jump-starting” of the optic nerve by the retina, the image upon the retina accomplishes nothing save to exist only as a useless “projector screen”.

(3) Beyond the optic nerve, any “representation” between the external world and the operation of the brain (sans conscious experience) is proposed to exist in the form of an electronic “code”, with conscious experience represented by synaptic positioning, neurotransmitter distribution and proportion, and action potential rate.

(4) The external world cannot be experienced (such that the only reality known to exist is the first-person “virtual reality” experience of a single conscious observer), thus one can make the ultimate argument that the very claim that conscious experience must be a representation of the world beyond consciousness is illogical.

(5) The illogicality of the belief can be demonstrated as follows: how does an empirically-inaccessible state of affairs (the external world) somehow reveal it’s existence to the mind of an individual if it exists beyond the consciousness of the individual? In other words, why must something that exists beyond consciousness be objectively true (independent of sheer coincidence) due to a conscious being’s assertion or belief in it’s truth?[/b]

Why should the physical brain, shaped as it is with such a strange and distinctive appearance and internal causal operation (compared to the world surrounding it) necessarily give rise only to a consciousness that must mimic the external world beyond consciousness (such that counterpossibilites and counterhypotheses such as the Brain-In-A-Vat, Matrix, and Evil Genius Hypotheses, respectively, are unquestionably false)?

Conclusion

[b]At the end of the day, while a transparent logical coherence exists within a notion that external world-environments (imagined as facsimiles of consciously perceived environments) and external world-brains exchange forces within a fragile and contingent causal loop, coherence dissipates with the notion that the emergence of conscious experience from this causal loop must be a subjective experience that represents or mimics the appearance and behavior of the external world, or that the psychophysical partnerships are what they are through an inscrutable constraining mechanism, such that before the existence of brains, the only consciousness that can emerge from the future existence of “normally functioning” brains is the consciousness that is in fact experienced.

That is to say, if at the bottom level consciousness and the physical are two distinct existences, then one can argue that the nature of consciousness is not necessarily determined by the dispositions of the physical: consciousness is simply what it is from the very beginning (naturalistic dualism) or exists as it does by random chance as it emerges from nonexistence (neural incantationism).

To make matters worse, as the existence of the physical cannot be proven, the notion of a causal relationship between consciousness and the physical is ultimately speculative, making it arguably illogical to claim certainty of the existence of physical causality itself: empirical knowledge reveals that the only causality that certainly exists is the ’virtual’ causality within the simulated reality that is consciousness itself.

Finally, Non-Representational Foundationalism (the view that the appearance and behavior of the external world beyond consciousness is wholly distinct from the contents of subjective experience) remains negatively justified, given the quasi-religious faith required to accept Facsimile Realism. Facsimile Realism is supported by a supremely powerful intuition whose strength outmatches all counterintuitions in favor of Non-Representational Foundationalism or Solipsism.

The instinctual response to the sheer power of the intuition supporting the existence of facsimile realism is to give in to it and presuppose that the universe is somehow “whispering in one’s ear” that facsimile realism must be objectively true. This response is typical of the so-called epistemology of the modern world, where extremely powerful beliefs and intuitions are sometimes held to possess a “magical” revelatory power and to function as a telescope into the imperceptible external world.

However, a philosopher can make the charge that a belief in the existence and possession of such supra-conscious revelatory power is ultimately irrational—unless one’s predictions are reproducible and verifiable through empirical demonstration (for example, the same charge can hold that belief in revelatory knowledge from God is irrational, unless such claims are supported by empirical demonstration of a revelatory claim).

Facsimile Realism (and Non-Representational Foundationalism), the external world itself, and the a priori necessity for the psychophysical partnerships fail to narrow epistemic space through empirical knowledge of their objective existence. One might choose to be so bold as to claim that one is gifted with a special epistemic power of “a consciousness that can see beyond consciousness itself” (supra-conscious revelation), yet the philosopher choosing to hold to a “no nonsense” philosophical and epistemological honesty can argue that despite the unbelievable strength of the intuition of the truth of:[/b]

b An a priori necessity for ‘real world’ psychophysical partnerships

(ii) A logic to the notion that physical forces exchanged between physical objects transparently implies the existence of non-physical (or the secondary physicality of) consciousness

(iii) The truth of facsimile realism over non-representational foundationalism (or even solipsism), and;

(iv) A belief in the existence of the physical itself[/b]

—the intuition itself is irrational (if it yields a belief in the epistemic certainty of the empirically-inaccessible concepts above), and can be argued to be only an unconditional Pavlovian response (as a contrived or accidental psychological response within the ’virtual’ mind of a ‘virtual’ being having a particular conscious experience) arising as a causal “reflex” through continuous experience of the regularities and predictabilities of a type of conscious world.

END

This is the worst thread ever. I hate myself for even reading the first few sentences. I wouldn’t even attempt to desuade you of this grandoise delusion I suspect its taken ahold of you so strongly.

Too much… I simply cannot force myself to read through it all…

Sorry phenomenal_graffiti… I can tell you’ve put much effort into this… but it’s too much reading for the little time i have to browse these forums…

What I will say on what little I did read is this:

I think you are aproaching a dicussion of materialistic epistomology… A while back we had a materialism thread where this was debated in some depth… and I would recomend reading through most of that thread actually… Carleas Uccisore Felix myself and others had some interresting things to say…

Here’s a link: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=157808

Your criticisms of a materialistic view of consciousness seem to boil down to these paragraphs:

You seem to think that consciousness is some kind of physical object, a “thing” that has to be created ex nihilo or made from pre-existing “stuff” in order to arise as the consciousness associated to a human brain. This claim is implicit when you compare the arising of consciousness to the spontaneous physical creation of Santa Claus. However, this seems highly unlikely given what we know about consciousness and physical objects. For example, experience of physical objects can be shared by a group of people experiencing the same object. If Santa Claus were physically real, everyone could see him flying over the world with his reindeer. But no one can share the experience of my consciousness; only I can experience it. So consciousness does not seem to be a physical object or substance like Santa Claus would be if he were real.

Instead, consciousness is a subjective feeling one experiences when one is awake. It “exists” purely as a quality of a person’s personal, subjective world, and has no independent physical existence. It is a subjective phenomenon, not a physical phenomenon, hence its arising and destruction is not subject to physical conservation laws. However, consciousness only arises under certain physical conditions which themselves ARE subject to physical law.

We don’t know why we are conscious beings. That may be a question we never answer, like “are there parallel universes?” or “is the Riemann hypothesis true?”. One should not give unfounded, pat answers to such questions, like “there’s panprotopsychic microbeads of consciousness floating around that join together” etc. That’s just myth-making. It makes for a pretty story, but it doesn’t do much for advancing the cause of knowledge. In fact, such myths have historically impeded real discovery. Therefore, like Socrates, we should admit that we don’t know what we don’t know.

For more on my view of consciousness, I recommend Hofstadter’s “I am a strange loop”. He speaks directly to the sort of criticisms leveled by the Chalmers type. Hofstadter expands the argument that there is no magical substance, no elan vital, that gives rise to consciousness.

Reply To Aporia:

Thanks for your response. I think that it is mistaken in certain areas while quite obvious and “dead on” in others. To demonstrate:

[b]Actually, my deepest belief is that consciousness is not a physical object at all, and (more controversially) that the ‘physical’ does not exist, such that reality is exclusively mental or subjective. The point is that consciousness is widely believed to arise from a physical basis (the operation of the physical brain). Given this, I simply explored differences in how non-physical consciousness can logically arise from the physical brain. The two candidates that turn up are “existence-magic” (creation ex nihilo) or transformative causation, with consciousness somehow in the picture from the very beginning (Chalmer’s panprotopsychism is one out of many examples of psychophysical transformative causation).

If consciousness does not simply exist “on it’s own” independent of the brain, then logically one must boil the “process” of consciousness-creation down to one of the two choices (creation ex nihilo, transformative causation) above.

The article states that the whole notion that the type of consciousness that we possess arises from the physical brain with a priori necessity (such that before the existence of brains, it is only possible that if “normally functional” brains come to exist, they can only give rise to the type of consciousness that in fact exists) is, on deeper rational reflection, illogical and absurd.[/b]

Exactly. You are quite correct. I merely spoke of consciousness in a “quasi-physical” substance, given that consciousness is believed to arise from the physical, in order to demonstrate the logic behind the two modes of consciousness-creation.

Agreed, except for the last sentence. Despite the fact that it is commonly believed that consciousness arises under certain physical conditions, this is something that cannot be known to be undeniably true, as reality, to us, is simply the first-person viewpoint of a ‘virtual’ subjective world. We do not know if a mind-independent ‘physical’ world that mimics the contents of our consciousness even exists. We can only sustain a quasi-religious faith that it does. Unfortunately, many philosophers speak of this external world as if they know of it’s existence in an empirical manner.

[b]While I agree that we will never know “why” we are conscious (hence the notion of “throwness”–the notion of one being “thrown” into existence with the properties that one possesses without having chosen to exist or to possess such properties—of being a human being according to existentialist philosophy. Chalmers is doing more than just “myth-making” an explanation for consciousness. Consider:

(1) He rightfully bends to the task of explaining consciousness in a way that does not necessitate the magic of “creation ex nihilo”, as the latter involves epistemic and logical abysses that cannot rationally be crossed for any satisfying theory of consciousness to logically exist

(One would have to explain why a given experience comes into existence when a given neural function is performed, and what causes only that experience to arise repeatedly upon experiment, what properties of the physical brain, given that the brain is composed of the same atoms as everything else, gives it it’s “ex nihilo” powers, and so on.)

(2) Panprotopsychism adheres to a conceptual law of homogeniety that begs rational simplicity (such that what is “good for the goose” of the physical is good for consciousness in terms of it’s indestructibility, ubiquity, lawful predictability, and eternal existence a la the first law of thermodynamics)

(3) Chalmers proposes an explanation of consciousness that is entails a beautiful symmetry between the phenomenal and the physical, invoking a two-layered “substance” that explains the mind/body relation as a natural consequence of a fundamental substance possessing two inextricable properties (such that consciousness has always “lived” within the physical, rather than to exist as a nonexistent entity that must be magically “conjured” by electrical activity within the neocortex).

At the end of the day, how do we know that panprotopsychism is just a “myth”? It indeed advances the cause for knowledge in the sense that it doesn’t simply sit mute on the couch; it goes to work to offer a logically coherent explanation for consciousness that goes over the “magic” of neural incantationism (the common belief that the brain, alone of any other object in known existence possesses the power to make something that formerly was just as real as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny to magically become real compared to Santa and the Easter Bunny).

Can we decisively and undeniably rule out the existence of panprotopsychism? If so, how? With the five senses? As Chalmers himself states:[/b]

"The Type-F view (panprotopsychism) is admittedly speculative, and it can sound strange at first hearing. Many
find it extremely counterintuitive to suppose that fundamental physical systems have phenomenal properties: e.g., that there is something it is like to be an electron. The protophenomenal version of the view rejects this claim, but retains something of its strangeness: it seems that any properties responsible for constituting consciousness must be strange and unusual properties, of a sort that we might not expect to find in microphysical reality.
Still, it is not clear that this strangeness yields any strong objections. Like epiphenomenalism, the view appears to be compatible with all our evidence, and there is no direct evidence against it. One can argue that if the view were true, things would appear to us just as they in fact appear. And we have learned from modern physics that the world is a strange place: we cannot expect it to obey all the dictates of common sense."

(Chalmers, David J: Consciousness And It’s Place In Nature consc.net/consc-papers.html)

The moral of this is that while there are things that we will never know, there’s no law or evil to the creation of logically and metaphysically possible hypotheses in an attempt to explain them (with a given hypotheses accidentally turning out to be true for all one knows). It is exciting to get off the couch of the “I don’t know”, and plunge into the conceptual safari to find for oneself a satisfying (if potentially wrong) explanation for the world in which one exists. I suppose there is nothing wrong with living in “I don’t know”-Land if one wishes, but those of us who cook up metaphysically possible scenarios to explain the world ought not to be thought to be more the fool than those who do not.

Good post, by the way.

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity

But why even think of consciousness as “quasi-physical”? There are things that “arise” from substances which are not substances at all, and do not obey any physical conservation laws. For example, attributes and processes arise from substances entering and leaving certain states. Say a man begins to run a race, then stops racing. Is there a substance called “racing” which is spontaneously brought into existence when the man begins to race, and which spontaneously self-destructs when he stops? Of course not; on the contrary, the non-substantial process “racing” arises from substance “man”, and the process is not subject to conservation laws.

We have no suspicion of “ex nihilo magic” when the process of racing arises in a human body. Why then should we suspect “ex nihilo magic” when the state of consciousness arises in the human brain? Both racing and consciousness are processes; processes depend upon physical substances for their existence but are not themselves substantial, hence can be “created” and “destroyed” without metaphysical qualm. Consciousness as process is the natural and appealing hypothesis of Hofstadter (Chalmer’s PhD advisor, I’ve learned). We can view the mind as a running computer, with brain as physical hardware, and consciousness the running of software on it.

There are no “epistemic and logical abysses” created by this hypothesis, and it avoids the creation of an unnecessary “elan vital” consciousness-substance.

Reply To Aporia:

If one adheres to the conservation of energy, the energy of “racing” (as racing is motion and motion is kinetic energy) is transformed into a different form of the same substance (heat, friction, etc.): it does not “self-destruct” or cease to exist. This point is debatable, but in the absence of empirical observation of the truth of the existence/non-existence of the conservation of energy—may lead to a circular argument of the “uh huh”—“nuh uh”.

[b]Consciousness, on the other hand, is presumably a distinct existence from the ‘physical’. Subjective experience seems to be something altogether distinct from that which is believed to exist or to have always existed before the existence of consciousness. I’ve never believed this, but the question of the “ex nihilo magic” for consciousness and the brain is important—not for you or I, but for most everyone else. You see, for some unfathomable reason, consciousness is commonly believed to arise “ex nihilo” from the physical brain, as it is a common and popular belief that consciousness ceases to exist when the electrical activity ceases within the cerebral cortex.

I notice, however, that you are taking the notion that there are non-substantial “processes” that arise from physical substances for granted as an undeniable truth. This, I think, is a common conceptual mistake drawn from the seemingly omnipotent assumption (or faith!) that the physical necessarily exists. Given that the physical world (that which exists beyond the existence of consciousness) is almost unanimously believed to exist, I more or less “playfully” assume it’s existence (with tongue in cheek) within my arguments.

This aside, you are simply asserting a blank situation between consciousness and the physical that inexplicably “defeats” the notion of “ex nihilo” magic, nothing more. Mind you, they are quite indistinguishable in terms of their appearance and behavior. How can one tell (“consciousness as a non-substantial process ‘arising’ from the physical brain”) from (“the brain causing consciousness to come into existence through the “incantation” of electrical flow through neural membranes of the cerebral cortex”) when observing the brain in action through a CAT scan or observing a conscious subject?

The blank situation you described also begs other questions: If consciousness is simply a “process” that arises from the physical, what’s it (consciousness) doing in there in the first place (if it’s a distinguished existence from the physical) ? Has it always existed within the physical? If not, then where did it come from and why should arise at all? What is it about the physical in the first place that necessitates the existence of the “non-substantial process” of consciousness? If you peer closer, Chalmer’s panprotopsychism is related rather than opposed to Hofstadter’s “processes”, as they basically ask the questions above and state the same thing (the notion of the non-substantial arising from the substantial). :wink:

What makes Chalmer’s “myth-making” any different from the psychophysical “myth” of Hofstadter’s “processes” (given the fact that we can’t even know that the physical even exists, since all we know is consciousness)? The difference between the two, it seems, is that Chalmers chose to “quantize” consciousness into micro-bits, such that consciousness is a “non-substantial process” in the form of a ubiquitous universal quanta. This sort of makes sense, given that the physical itself is a universal quanta (does consciousness arise epiphenomenally macroscopic from the microscopic?)

Nothing about Chalmer’s panprotopsychism opposes or is superceded by Hofstadter’s theory. If anything, Chalmers simply expanded the ontology of his Phd advisor. No “elan vital consciousness-substance” here—it’s just plain ole Hofstadter-consciousness broken up by Chalmers into little pieces to be computed into normal consciousness within the “running computer” of the brain. You see, they actually work together, not against each other.

In the end, describing consciousness as “software” or as a “non-substantial process” performs no useful cognitive work. We are left with one distinctive existence arising from another with no attempt to question why this should happen in the first place. We are merely being told to take it for granted that it does.

Consider Chalmer’s basic stance on the problem of consciousness:[/b]

"Why are the easy problems easy, and why is the hard problem hard? The easy problems are easy precisely because they concern the explanation of cognitive abilities and functions. To explain a cognitive function, we need only specify a mechanism that can perform the function. The methods of cognitive science are well-suited for this sort of explanation, and so are well-suited to the easy problems of consciousness. By contrast, the hard problem is hard precisely because it is not a problem about the performance of functions. The problem persists even when the performance of all the relevant functions is explained. (Here “function” is not used in the narrow teleological sense of something that a system is designed to do, but in the broader sense of any causal role in the production of behavior that a system might perform.)

What makes the hard problem hard and almost unique is that it goes beyond problems about the performance of functions. To see this, note that even when we have explained the performance of all the cognitive and behavioral functions in the vicinity of experience - perceptual discrimination, categorization, internal access, verbal report - there may still remain a further unanswered question: Why is the performance of these functions accompanied by experience? A simple explanation of the functions leaves this question open.

There is no analogous further question in the explanation of genes, or of life, or of learning. If someone says “I can see that you have explained how DNA stores and transmits hereditary information from one generation to the next, but you have not explained how it is a gene”, then they are making a conceptual mistake. All it means to be a gene is to be an entity that performs the relevant storage and transmission function. But if someone says “I can see that you have explained how information is discriminated, integrated, and reported, but you have not explained how it is experienced”, they are not making a conceptual mistake. This is a nontrivial further question.

This further question is the key question in the problem of consciousness. Why doesn’t all this information-processing go on “in the dark”, free of any inner feel? Why is it that when electromagnetic waveforms impinge on a retina and are discriminated and categorized by a visual system, this discrimination and categorization is experienced as a sensation of vivid red? We know that conscious experience does arise when these functions are performed, but the very fact that it arises is the central mystery. There is an explanatory gap (a term due to Levine 1983) between the functions and experience, and we need an explanatory bridge to cross it. A mere account of the functions stays on one side of the gap, so the materials for the bridge must be found elsewhere."

(Chalmers, David J: Facing Up To The Problem Of Consciousness, consc.net/papers/facing.htm)

The ‘hard’ problem of consciousness is solved in part I think by evolutionary cognitive neuro-science, which shows that its advantageous is a functional sense to experience a subjective sense of consciousness. Its an adaptation, which arises from the function, the reason we have the ‘subjective’ experience of it, is because in practice, thsoe that do perform X tasks better.

There is/was a problem of consciousness, but theres no reason to say that science isn’t chipping away at it or can’t. there is a hard problem but i really do think the most recent evolutionary-neuroscientific studies and research on animals which don’t experiencec a subjective consciousness compared to those that do, show the benefits.

What we’re really talking about is self-awareness and a the subjective experiencec of self-awareness goes up, so does the ability to extrapolate/concieve theory-of-mind situations (thinking about the minds of others)

We have a subjective experience because it helps us predict OTHER social organisms with complex actions, or rather, thats why it began to evolve, theres a lot of great essayson it.

When mdoern research shows that as levels of awareness/subjective experience become more elaborate the organism becomes better at predicting the actions of other organisms. This is fairly new research, as in within the last 1-5 years.

For example consider a two rhesus monkeys (or whatever ape) one monkey hides the grape from another monkey. He may not be self-aware to do this.

However, if monkey a experiences a susbjective self-awareness, not only can he hide his grape, but he can also think about monkey B thinking about where he hid the grape.

For example, humans (average) have about six levels of meta-awareness (he thought, that she thought, that he thought, that she thought, that he thought, that she thought)

the reason we can do this is because of our subjective self-awareness, as that goes up, so does our ability to theorize about other minds/theory of mind. Its functionally useful, and demonstratable in experiments.

Chalmers’ theories (of which I am an enthusiast) are against materialism, not atheism. Notwithstanding your opening paragraph, the belief or disbelief in God has almost nothing to do with theories of consciousness, and Chalmers’ ideas would be quite consistent with atheism. So why use “atheistic” in your topic heading when there’s a perfectly adequate word, “materialistic”, instead?

Great post otherwise. For a more digestible summary of Chalmers’ ideas, see my post in this thread: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=162212&st=0&sk=t&sd=a :wink:

Ok, quick off the cuff reply to phenomenal_graffiti (I’m in the midst of some nasty finals at the moment):

  1. I’ve read a couple of Chalmers’ main papers now. For the moment I’m convinced that purely materialistic theories of reality don’t explain why we have consciousness, while Chalmers’ theories might explain it. But I’m not convinced that explaining why we have consciousness is at all fruitful. An explanation of a phenomenon should do more than just explain that phenomenon; it should help one explain other phenomena in a coherent framework. Otherwise, we might as well just say “it’s special magic conjured for the purpose of causing this phenomenon”, which is basically how I feel about Chalmers’ theories.

As far as I can tell, Chalmers’ explanations for consciousness don’t help us answer any other questions besides the one question they were designed to answer. They’re just a special magic conjured to explain the subjective feeling of consciousness in a consistent manner with a materialist worldview (that’s right, read his papers; his type F panprotopsychism is about being consistent with a monist materialist universe AND explaining consciousness).

  1. On the other hand, the physical world which you (PG) apparently deny is a very powerful explanation for a variety of related phenomena. The existence of a physical world outside our minds explains many diverse features of our experience. It explains the persistence of our sensations of objects, the regularity of nature’s laws, etc. In fact, lucid dreamers often like to make their dreams lucid (self-aware dreaming) by noting some sort of irregularity that one would not see in the real world, clueing them in to their dreaming state. [Examples include clocks not moving, people disappearing when you look away from them, clothing/scenery changing spontaneously, etc.]

You seem to think that the physical does not exist in some sense. So how do you explain these facts? How does the world continue working as it does when we look away? And if the world were but a dream of one’s mind, how is it that we are able to tell the difference between our sleeping dreams and our waking dreams? Chalmers himself seems to be a physicalist; he says idealist theories have too much trouble explaining this sort of thing, and spends little time on physical-denying theories.

Actually it does, understanding why we have a subjective experience can explain a lot of things. For example, what adaptive problem is it a solution to, what happens when its impaired, how to fix that impairment.

Theres a lot of brain damage cases and autism and animal consciousness issues which is highlighted by understanding self-awareness (or subjective experience) designing tests to gauge what level of subjective experience animals have and brain damaged/autistic people and so forth.

It does functionally raise awareness of certain scientific issues. Like I said, when we show that the more subjective experience an animal has in some ways (consciousness) the more it can predict what other animals will do (with minds) recent experiments show thats the case, anyway.

On top of that say, when self-awareness or subjective experience isn’t produced right (because of brain damage or whatever) we can see how people are functionally impaired.

Theres an evolutionary reason for the ‘hard part’ of consciousness, this has been at least somewhat established with recent scientific studies in the new field of ‘evolutionary cognitive neuroscience’

I really do think that solves the problem to some degree at least, showing that it has a functional capability, showing that it solves an adaptive problem. What is the hard part exactly? subjectivity has functional capabilities, it eliminates part of that hard problem.

Replies To Cyrene, Rocky, and Aproria (respectively):

To Cyrene: [b]The hard problem of consciousness, unfortunately, will never be solved by advances in neuroscience. Reason: we only perceive reality as first-person subjective experience–such that consciousness is ultimately a simulated reality that is believed to “simulate” the external world beyond consciousness. Thus we only perceive ‘virtual’ brains, not external world-brains (which may or may not exist). We only experience ‘virtual’ prediction of the actions of other organisms, and ‘virtual avatars’ of those organisms, which we believe possess an external-world counterpart beyond conscious experience.

This observation about our consciousness (being a ‘virtual’ or simulated reality)[/b] is as empirically honest as you can get. [b]Beyond the simulation that is human consciousness, everything (including the existence of the external world, and the belief that the external world is represented by our consciousness) is sheer speculation that depends upon a quasi-religious faith to support it’s epistemic existence.*

(*As opposed to the possibility of the objective existence of the external world or Facsimile Realism, which I cannot logically deny)[/b]

To Rocky: [b]Another Chalmers enthusiast! :smiley: I admit that Chalmers is anti-materialist, and I suspect my “unofficial mentor” is atheist or at least agnostic (I don’t know. I conversed with Chalmers himself via e-mail six years ago, but I was more interested in his entailment of a more reductive explanation of panprotopsychism than his relgious beliefs. I wish I had asked. I don’t wish to intrude on the guy or wear out my welcome, so after a few emails (one getting the dirt on the eternity of consciousness in panprotopsychism, the other asking for his thoughts on free will) I went silent for the last six years.

I used “atheistic” in my topic for two reasons: (a) it’s a marketing tool, and (b) the article above challenges beliefs about consciousness that are within the propositional family of “stereotypical” atheism. These “antagonist” beliefs (“antagonist” since I am theist—thus theological beliefs are the “protagonists” within my posts) are more indigenous to atheism than to theism, hence the arguable necessity for the topic name.

I’ll check out your summary of Chalmer’s ideas, thanks. :slight_smile: [/b]

To Aporia

[b]Actually, Chalmers’ “monism” entails the physical as another type of ‘mental’ substance having two properties. Such that that which we call the ‘physical’ is actually a ‘dense’ mentalism, as opposed to the ‘gaseous’ mentalism of subjective experience. Chalmers “reconciles” his views with materialism by instituting a monism that favors the mental rather than the non-mental, as, according to his view, it is not logically necessary that the physical must be a non-mental substance—it only need by a different essence than the subjective.

I think that Chalmer’s mental monism explains the physical and consciousness together within a coherent network. Chalmer’s theory dissipate neural incantationism for one thing, applying a conservation of the subjective alongside a conservation of energy, with consciousness and the physical a two-layered “substance” that causally interacts with each other down a specific causal pathway. I think it gets no better than this. He doesn’t just explain consciousness, he links it with the physical in a naturalistic dualism that conceptually predicts any psychophysical relation that may come about now or in the future. I respect this conceptual “theory of everything” that he has created, but while not denying it outright, I have reservations against it for theological reasons. Thus I depart from the ontology of Chalmers only at this philosophical junction (see below).[/b]

[b]The “many diverse features of our experience” are simply a type of ‘virtual’ conscious world. It’s no more than that. The fact that our survival is in intergral part of this ‘virtual’ world does not change that fact, no does it necessitate the existence of an external world that is an external replica of the multifaceted nature of our experience.

You see, the “persistence of our sensations of objects” and “the regularities of nature’s laws” are believed to be ‘virtual’ experiences arising from these little guys:[/b]

[b]…whenever there is local electric flow within the neural membrane due to changes in electrical potential when sodium and potassium ions “pass each other on the street” between the contingently permeable neural membrane.

The main article above questions why our brain (as the most significant example), shaped as it is and functioning as it does with the particular chemical substrates that make it up should necessarily be the instrument that adequately reflects the external world. The article also questions how external world-forces (whatever these might be, given that we only know of the ‘virtual’ forces that exist when one is conscious) impinging upon external world-brains necessitates the existence of consciousness (something ontologically distinct from external world-brains and external world-environments) and a type of consciousness that must represent the appearance and behavior of that external world.

My central argument is that there is no logic to this “necessity”. The diverse features of our experience, our experience of reproducible and seemingly immutable laws of nature, the verbal reports of patients which state that they have particular experiences when a certain part of the brain is electrically stimulated, and so on are all supposedly ‘virtual reality’ experiences believed to arise when electricity flows through one of the “little guys” above, and only those neurons within the frontal lobe. An external world that can support the function of the brain, such as the Skeptical (and Metaphysical) Hypothesis of The Brain-In-A-Vat and Descartes’ The Evil Genius can yield the same world that is believed to arise between a force exchange between external world-brains and external world-environments.

Once again, as David Chalmers notes:[/b]

[b]"The Matrix presents a version of an old philosophical fable: the brain in a vat. A disembodied brain is floating in a vat, inside a scientist’s laboratory. The scientist has arranged that the brain will be stimulated with the same sort of inputs that a normal embodied brain receives. To do this, the brain is connected to a giant computer simulation of a world. The simulation determines which inputs the brain receives. When the brain produces outputs, these are fed back into the simulation. The internal state of the brain is just like that of a normal brain, despite the fact that it lacks a body. From the brain’s point of view, things seem very much as they seem to you and me.

Neo’s situation at the beginning of The Matrix is something like this. He thinks that he lives in a city, he thinks that he has hair, he thinks it is 1999, and he thinks that it is sunny outside. In reality, he is floating in space, he has no hair, the year is around 2199, and the world has been darkened by war. There are a few small differences from the vat scenario above: Neo’s brain is located in a body, and the computer simulation is controlled by machines rather than by a scientist. But the essential details are much the same. In effect, Neo is a brain in a vat.

Let’s say that a matrix (lower-case “m”) is an artificially-designed computer simulation of a world. So the Matrix in the movie is one example of a matrix. And let’s say that someone is envatted, or that they are in a matrix, if they have a cognitive system which receives its inputs from and sends its outputs to a matrix. Then the brain at the beginning is envatted, and so is Neo.

We can imagine that a matrix simulates the entire physics of a world, keeping track of every last particle throughout space and time. (Later, we will look at ways in which this set-up might be varied.) An envatted being will be associated with a particular simulated body. A connection is arranged so that whenever this body receives sensory inputs inside the simulation, the envatted cognitive system will receive sensory inputs of the same sort. When the envatted cognitive system produces motor outputs, corresponding outputs will be fed to the motor organs of the simulated body.

When the possibility of a matrix is raised, a question immediately follows. How do I know that I am not in a matrix? After all, there could be a brain in a vat structured exactly like my brain, hooked up to a matrix, with experiences indistinguishable from those I am having now. From the inside, there is no way to tell for sure that I am not in the situation of the brain in a vat. So it seems that there is no way to know for sure that I am not in a matrix.

Let us call the hypothesis that I am in a matrix and have always been in a matrix the Matrix Hypothesis. Equivalently, the Matrix Hypothesis says that I am envatted and have always been envatted. This is not quite equivalent to the hypothesis that I am in the Matrix, as the Matrix is just one specific version of a matrix. For now, I will ignore the some complications that are specific to the Matrix in the movie, such as the fact that people sometimes travel back and forth between the Matrix and the external world. These issues aside, we can think of the Matrix Hypothesis informally as saying that I am in the same sort of situation as people who have always been in the Matrix.[/b]

The Matrix Hypothesis is one that we should take seriously. As Nick Bostrom has suggested, it is not out of the question that in the history of the universe, technology will evolve that will allow beings to create computer simulations of entire worlds. There may well be vast numbers of such computer simulations, compared to just one real world. If so, there may well be many more beings who are in a matrix than beings who are not. Given all this, one might even infer that it is more likely that we are in a matrix than that we are not. Whether this is right or not, it certainly seems that we cannot be certain that we are not in a matrix."

(Chalmers, David J: The Matrix As Metaphysics consc.net/papers/matrix.html)

[b]As for your final questions, given that we are within a simulation that we call “consciousness”, the world continues to work as it does when we look away because the simulation, whatever it’s source, is consistently maintained (in my view, by the Judeo-Christian God—who has “preprogrammed” every human experience to infallibly run a predestined “program” that obeys the dictates of God’s foreknowledge of past, present, and future).

We are able to tell the difference between “dreams” and “reality’” due to the fact that they are two different kinds of simulated reality, that’s all.

Of note:[/b]

[b]"While people dream, they usually do not realize they are dreaming (in non-lucid dreams). This has led philosophers to wonder whether one could actually be dreaming constantly, instead of being in waking reality (or at least that one can’t be certain that he or she is not dreaming). In the West, the philosophical puzzle is referred to as early as Plato (Theaetetus 158b-d) and Aristotle (Metaphysics 1011a6). Having received serious attention in René Descartes’ Meditations on First Philosophy, the dream argument has become one of the most popular skeptical hypotheses.

Dreaming provides a springboard for those who question whether our own reality may be an illusion. The ability of the brain to trick itself into believing a neuronally generated world is the “real world” means one variety of simulation is a common, even nightly event.

Those who argue that the world is not simulated must concede that the mind — at least the sleeping mind — is not itself a reliable mechanism for an analysis attempting to differentiate reality from illusion by nature of its own inability to distinguish between reality states.

This could be seen as a challenge to those who claim a simulated reality requires highly advanced scientific technology, since the only apparatus needed to construct a simulated reality capable of fooling the unconscious mind is a human brain (given that human brains currently exist and consistently create simulated realities in the form of dreams). However, this observation is of little relevance to most versions of the simulated reality claim, which maintain that waking reality is what is being simulated."[/b]

(Wikipedia: The Dream Argument, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream-argument)

[b]In my view, one could think of waking reality as a super-lucid dream*, in which the subject believes that the “hyper-realistic” dream which they consistently experience is connected to an represents the external world. My argument is that, on deeper rational reflection, there is no logic to such a belief save the nebulous logic that attempts to reinforce a supremely powerful belief in a non-empirical “connection” to “something” that may or may not exist beyond consciousness. On deeper reflection, I found it puzzling that it commonly (and even more strangely, unquestionably) believed that the external world “must” reflect the nature of our experience.

My final argument is that insistence that the external world “must” reflect our experience is irrational, as we have no empirical means to discern the nature of the external world, and the only “guide” that we have is the incredible detail and consistent behavior of the ‘virtual reality’ that is consciousness itself. Why this incredible detail and consistent behavior should necessarily point to an external world that appears and behaves the same is beyond logic when one inserts that it “must” be so.

The main article of this topic above asks the central question of[/b] why, independent of sheer coincidence, should the brain produce the consciousness that it does (why should thoughts arise from the frontal lobe? why should vision from the occipital lobe? why should the brain produce the experience of “this” particular world?), and why should (independent of sheer coincidence) “this” consciousness that we have “must” be a representative of the world beyond consciousness, particularly if only forces (pushes and pulls) can be explained as the causal mechanism between external world- brains and external world-environments?

[b]This is probably the point at which I and Chalmers disagree, as he seems to be a Facsimile Realist (one who holds that the quality and content of our consciousness more or less accurately mimics the appearance and behavior of the external world).

[*Of course, I try to avoid the term: “dream”, as dreams are usually preceded by and associated with sleep. It suffices, however, that consciousness is more easily conceived to be a simulated reality that is believed to either be created by force exchanges between external world-environments and external world-brains, or by some sort of external world computation performed by an external-world intelligence (examples: God, or Nick Bostrom’s “external humans” within higher dimensions to whom we are but “human” simulated programs that they control)][/b]

Good posts all!

Jay
phenomenal_graffiti@yahoo.com
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity

“What!!!”–Direct quote from Dave Chapell. ](*,) Don’t feed me Wikipedia Chalmers. Go to Chalmers’ Online Papers on Consciousness. Update me on zombies!!!

PG

So instead of a physical world, you posit a “virtual reality simulation” consistently programmed and maintained by the Judeo-Christian god. The simulation and the God are still external to the mind, though (unless you define mind in a strange way, so that the whole simulation is somehow in our subconscious, but this is just a shell game.) So nothing has really changed; you’ve just replaced our familiar concept of the external world with an unfamiliar one. Why should we bother with it?

By definition, empirical knowledge is knowledge that comes to us through our senses from the world around us. So yes, we do have an empirical means to discern the nature of the external world. It doesn’t necessarily help us know “ultimate reality” – our senses might just be giving us information about a matrix simulation we call the “external world”, but which is in fact being run in some higher reality – but it is empirical knowledge nonetheless.

No one is insisting that the external world “must” exist. I simply say that it is a very successful explanatory hypothesis. One should not discard such good hypotheses unless one has an alternative that explains more and better than the original. Once again, I ask: what makes your ideas more than an ad-hoc answer to a single isolated question?

Expounding your theories at length with illustrations is entertaining and all, but eventually you have to sell the theories to people who are already satisfied with their current product. Why should we buy from you?

As far as I can tell, it doesn’t predict anything besides what it was designed to predict. A theory which only predicts what it was designed to predict lacks any explanatory power. Why not just say that there is special magic that connects our consciousness to our brains? That’s all Chalmers is doing – putting special magical properties in each particle in the universe. It’s good that he points out the hard problem of explaining consciousness, but a magical explanation is no better than no explanation at all.

Consciousness happens from all sorts of organs and energies working simultaniously, energies and materials that are both known and unknown. The co-interaction of everything, including ofcourse the “outside world”, otherwise there would be nothing to feed on or experience. So, consciousness is generally dependent on everything else, a very compound process. A brain in a jar in a cave can’t do it.

I just wanted to say that, that living and moving is not an exclusive seprate process of logical reduction.
And well… you really took all the time to type all of that other stuff?
What were you thinking, pheno?

Its a simulation of reality.

For example; the brain solves impossible computational problems by assuming regularities in the environment in which it finds itself.

you’d never be able to see, hear, or ever speak a language (learning a word is solving one thing out of an infinite possible choices) your brain solves impossible computational tasks (that a brain/computer the size of a planet couldn’t) by assuming regularities in the known world.

So unless there was a real environment for evolution to slowly program this information into organisms over evolutionary time, we wouldn’t be able to respond to the environment period. We’re not just assuming that a previous environment for brains existed in which they evolved its a logical neccessity for brains or any thing which solves sufficient computational problems.

The environment exists as a reality outside of our subjective experience of it, because its a logical/rational neccessity for subjective experience.

Cyrene- Reality outside our subjective experience would include our brains.

Reply To Aporia:

[b]I suppose one shouldn’t “bother with” the world-hypothesis above any more than one should bother with any other religious belief, if one does not believe in the relevant concepts making up the belief. However, one can point out that such views are produced by “Nature” alongside common secular views (of the universe as an unconscious and unheeding mechanism that entails an external world whose appearance and behavior is mimicked by the contents of visual perception).

And at the end of the day these alternative beliefs demonstrate that there are viable alternatives to Facsimile Realism. These views produce no meaningful work, unless one is caused by “Nature” to believe in them (and thus to believe that the alternative view “matters” in the sense that one believes it to be true) —yet the argument can be made that Facsimile Realism is also something that, unless one believes it to be true, an anti-Facsimile Realist need not bother with, as the world continues to appear and behave the way that it does if an anti-FR hypothesis is true.[/b]

I would redefine empirical knowledge as “that knowledge that comes to us through our senses within a subjective construct of a type of world”, we can’t know that it comes from an external world whose appearance and behavior is more or less identical to this information. Thus, my central argument is that we have no empirical means to discern the nature of the external world. [b]One can only have a quasi-religious faith that one’s empirical knowledge is mirrored by the external world, but the contents of consciousness cannot logically be held to somehow reveal—now or ever—the nature of that which presumably exists beyond the experiences of a conscious being.

It may be that you personally do not insist that the external world “must” exist (my point above is that there is an insistence not that the external world exists—but that it “must” be a facsimile of the contents of our experience, such that Facsimile Realism “must” be true), but most individuals who accept Facsimile Realism also instinctively believe that it is absolutely true (“Bane”, a correspondent within the ILovePhilosophy Forums, is a very good example) and “cannot possibly be false”—despite the fact that there is no epistemic power that we possess that unquestionably establishes such certainty.

Facsimile Realism is a “successful explanatory hypothesis” only in the sense that it is popular, backed by extremely powerful intuitions, and unthinkingly and unquestionably taken for granted as true. It cannot predict or produce results that cannot be found within anti-FR explanations for reality, as it is not (objectively) “more true” than any other anti-FR hypothesis save in the incredible power of intuitions for and belief in FR, a power that outstrips beliefs concerning anti-FR hypotheses. Facsimile Realism merely “seems” or “feels” more true than anti-Facsimile Realist hypotheses. On further rational reflection, that’s basically the only advantage FR possesses over anti-FR. I have argued that the power and commonality of the belief (in FR) is not a magical revelatory telescope into the true nature of the external world, but an unconditional response (a response that can be argued to be an aspect of a particular neural “program” and no more) of the diversity and regularity of the nature of our ‘virtual world’.

If one is satisfied with the current product, fine–but my (or any other anti-Fr philosopher’s) product, like the state-of-the-art vacuum cleaner that a potential customer decides to try out yet later refuses to buy, at the least exists to demonstrate that Facsimile Realism is not logically and necessarily the only game in town (this argument, of course, is aimed only at those who insist that FR is necessarily true, i.e. cannot possibly be false).[/b]

Actually, any theory of consciousness, Chalmers’, Hofstadter’s or anyone else—lacks any explanatory power according to your designation of what theories are “supposed” to do. All conceptions of the connection of consciousness to the physical are empirically-inaccessible, and only have value in whether or not there is a logical coherence within one’s imagination of a psychophysical correspondence. This is the only “explanatory power” that we can expect any theory of consciousness to have. You can’t make theoretical predictions that will somehow bear out in experiment when it comes to consciousness, as the existence of the physical world is questionable and beyond human observation.

Reply To Dan:

[b]Dan, given that our only certain knowledge of reality is that it is the first-person subjective experience of a ‘virtual’ world, how does one know of the existence of “organs and energies both known and unknown working together”----save through a quasi-religious faith?

A brain in a cave or a jar can’t do it, but a brain hooked up to a computer whose inputs and outputs cause the NCCs within the brain to function in the same way that they function in response to (supposedly) the force exchanges between external world-brains and external world-environments[/b] can.

It was worth the time to type “all that other stuff” in order to make a very important ignored or willfully ignored point clear. My argument, and the central post at the beginning of this topic, is aimed at those who claim that Facsimile Realism (and psychophysicalism itself to a lesser degree) is necessarily true (something that is necessarily true cannot possibly be false), as a most “sacred” tenet within the propositional family of stereotypical atheism.

Once again, good responses. Keep em comin’ :slight_smile:

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity

Hi phenomenal_graffiti,

To say that a certain view of consciousness follows from the above is not accurate.

Saying “the atheist” is like saying “the theist.” It’s much too general a category and no, you cannot infer from the fact that someone is atheist that he/she will necessarily have a certain conception of consciousness. Again, your issue is with a certain conception of consciousness, not atheism.

This is the topic of the thread, I take it.

EDIT: Corrected a misspelling.