Jesus: The Guiltinator

i know i wrote a thread much like this already, but there was no conclusive answer and i think we now have some new bible lovers.

christians: which of the following makes more sense:

  1. any god, perfect, omnibenevolent or stupid and inefficient, sends down a “piece of his divinity” into a person and tortures and kills that person. this act is the machinery required to open the gates of heaven for those of us who are sorry for our sins. before this time, this wasnt possible. after the torture and death, it was possible. god could send down a daughter who is required to have sex with 1000 people at the same time to open the gates to super heaven and it would make exactly as much sense.

or

  1. the catholic church wants to make sure that you are not just loosely connected to the organization like i am to quakers. they want to make damn sure that you are there, in the building, every sunday thanking god for doing such a nice thing. they want you to think of how horrible this sacrifice was, and how you would never do such a thing so selfless. they want to make you feel bad for how incredibly selfish you are compared to the chunk of god. they want you to appeal to this specific chunk of god when you are looking for gods mercifull forgiveness.

  2. the church says stuff that makes absolutely no sense according to everything youve experienced in your life and they specify that believing these kinds of things is ambiguously “holy”. believing things without evidence is a requirement if you want to believe their books, and according to them (some of them)(not their books) believing the books and their nebulous concepts (beyond simple anti-materialism) without evidence is required to get to heaven.

  3. the orgqanization wants your cash. the org that used to make up the top 10% of the wealthy population in midevil europe. an org does things that look like they can be uliterior motives for making money and they tell you to stop trying to think about that. and the same org used to be and still is pathedically disgustingly rich. the same org that preaches anti-materialism. is rich. and you listen to them.

if i can get my parents to stop giving money to these animals i can stop you. so stop. just donate your money to an actual non-profit whose headquarters costs less than $2 million. youll feel smarter.

OK, I’m impressed now. Kudos to you, sir.

Howdy Future Man,

To make sense of what I consider to be nonsense or inefficient or stupid,
I first have to lvoe myself as nonsensical and as inefficient and as stupid.

Then I wd see that the first nonsensicality or inefficiency or stupidity is to hate myself as nonsensical or inefficient or stupid.

See?

And that my first smartness or wisdom or efficiency is to love myself as wise and a fool, as inefficient and efficient, as stupid and smart.

see?

That is how i make sense out of nonsense, see wisdom in fools, efficiency in waste, an dso on.
see?
Do this make sense to you?
If yes,
just say so: for then my answer wd make sense to you.

if no, I wd not be able to help you to understand me.

everloving, everliving, eversure,
iloveu

actually, option #2 sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, and 99.999% of the time conspiracy theories turn out to be wrong. like there was this one a few years ago that saddam and the rest of the iraqi government had hidden nukes. but that wasn’t even close to the truth. so i’ll go with #1.

and unless i’m mistaken, it sounds like you very much have had a bad experience with religion, because you appear to be trying as hard as you can to keep anyone else from following it. why don’t you sit back and relax and just think to yourself “what a pathetic loser that guy is if he thinks being christian will make any difference to anyone at the end of the world” every time you see a christian, instead of tearing down everyone who asks their friends not to use God’s name in vain around them, or reads the bible, or makes some sort of attempt to regulate their morals and values.

You missed the point of the story didn’t you.

Not coming from a Christian background, my idea of the concept of a Bodhisattva was one who sets a divine example, one who will suffer infinitely to increase the life of one mere fellow sentient being by the most negligible amount imaginable. This not only creates compassion, but teaches it.
The Passion simply illustrates God’s love for humanity and all things, by allowing the most degrading and painful torture to happen to something most pure, it reunites God and the whole of humanity, who had been split since the Garden of Eden affair. People and God, sinners and saints, reconciled through God’s last covenant with humanity.

Jesus sets the example for Christians to follow, for everyone to follow, as does Mohammed (PBUH), Buddha and many others you would care to mention.

You attack God and Jesus because of some sort of vitriol you have toward the Catholic Church. You are getting the middle man confused with the source. Of course, it’s best not to let reality get in the way of a poisoned rant, eh.

sigh

im not talking about what you believe, im talking about why you believe it and how you act on that belief. jesus talked about anti materialism, and he said sacrifice some of your selfish gain so that your neighborhood leper can live without suffering so much.

when the dusty book says “check out this guy, you dont have to do this but this is your shining great example: ‘suffer infinitely to increase the life of one mere fellow sentient being by the most negligible amount imaginable’ this will teach you to be nice to your neighbor” it turns off people to the idea of sacrificing themselves, it doesnt encourage it. its a horrifying image, not a harmonious one at all. people like ayn rand say oh boohoo i dont want to get whipped, what a stupid world it would be if everyone did (am i right? i dont read that crap)

whatever, we can argue about the effectiveness of the parable in another thread. my point is *not ‘you believe something dumb, youre dumb’

it

is

pay attention christians:

you give money to an organization that pathedically fails to practice what it preaches. the thing that it fails at is redistriuting your money. if you give it money, you are paying for golden chalices and stained glass windows that make baby jesus cry.

stop.

Actually, the money I give to CAFOD helps people in Argentina develop sustainable techniques of arable farming. I’ve actually been and seen proof of this. That is what often happens if you give money to catholics nowadays. The golden cathedral stain glass idea is quite obsolete.

However, as someone reasonable who I’m sure agrees that there are billions suffering throughout the world in poor countries, I thought you would encourage the production of gold chalices. That old chestnut, trickle down theory, states that someone has to mine the gold. My economist ‘pocket world in figures 2005 edition’ states that South Africa, China, Russia, Peru, Indonesia, Ghana and Uzbekistan are in the top 10 gold mining countries in the world. Therefore, it is likely that the gold used in the chalices would create jobs in some of these countries. The gold then has to be refined, which is becoming an increasingly developing world based industry. More jobs. Then it has to shipped. More jobs. So you can see, the use of charity money to buy gold chalices in fact generates wealth for people who would otherwise be unemployed. Did you know that South Africa has 29.5% unemployment (according to ILO figures)? I’m sure the jobs gold chalices would create would help to address this problem.

Consumerism is the best form of charity. Whilst I feel very little need to explain or justify my beliefs, I am not a catholic, but I do think there are much worse ways in which one can spend their money than on the catholic church.

I second that…I’m very interested in the word choices you used to revert their programming…

t was a lot easier than i thought. i just kind of told them that quakers were really great, everybody was a volunteer and no money at all went to waste on pretty trivialities. and of course any organization that does waste money on trivialities is a less efficient, and therefore more stupid orgaization than the quakers. it was really like they were already thinking about it and i made the fact very clear.

dude, the trickle down effect is a scam.youre a sheep. you dont think theres any kind of economy that could grow over there except gold mining?

who is that and did they spend a single penny on something that they didnt need? if so, screw them.

Just so you know, there are a huge number of Catholic charities which have absolutely nothing to do with gold chalices and stained glass.
Maybe you should go see what catholic monks and nuns do all over the world. Plenty of orders take vows of poverty and devote their entire lives to helping to educate, to feed, to clothe, to comfort, and to care for the sick (fransicans and sisters of the poor come to mind). While bashing Catholics, don’t forget that all those in religious orders doing a great deal of good throughout the world and not wasting money.
As to donations to Catholic charities, if you go to give.org you will see a ton of Catholic charities which meet “the CBBB Standards for Charitable Solicitations” which sets standards for how much money received through donations should go to those in need, how much is acceptable for administrative and fund raising costs, etc.
If you go into any Catholic Church you might also notice that there is always a Poor Box. This money goes directly to charities, and not to buy chalices or windows or any nonsense like that.
If you really want to rail at something with the Church, you are picking the wrong issue anyways. Chalices and Stained Glass are very rare purchases (I have never seen either purchased except in the construction of a new church) and are fairly inconsequencial in terms of total monies given. The real problem the Catholic Church has had in recent years is lawsuits against the Church regarding the coverup of sexual molestation cases. This of course is absolutely despicable (both the coverups and the waste of money that could have gone to the poor) and is the reason that my parents no longer contribute to the Cardinal’s Appeal (an appeal for donations for a general diocese fund) and instead give directly to charities/monks and nuns “in the field” like Mother Theresa’s order in India or a group of nuns for feed and clothe and entire community in a very very poor part of Maryland (we are from maryland) - i might add that the nuns in MD are serving a community that is almost completely non-Catholic and which has huge prejudices against Catholics. Back to the Bishops and the molestation scandals, I would ex-communicate any Bishop involved as they have done more to hurt the Church than any heretic ever has.

yeah i cant try and say the whole org is the work of satan, but there is a specific message that a good number of them specifically violate.

when they violate it so blatantly as they did in the middle ages, it makes you think that well maybe their motivation was not to make all the peasants good nice empathetic people, it was to get rich. considering the fact that they were pathedically rich. and the fact that they didnt teach the peasants anything very well. except for the fact that you MUST believe jesus and god do stuff that makes literally zero sense. and you MUST not talk about whether or not it makes sense.

just dont put money in that basket, find out where is a good place to put it. dont trust churchies, they blew that trust long ago.

AIM, just cause churches don’t spend money on material items doesn’t mean it’s not as bad as FM says…orgs who spend thousands of dollars provided by the congregations to send some fool overseas to preach the word of god is just as accountable as those who spend to buy more golden chalices.

do you own anything that you dont need? if so, screw you

well i dont collect money in the name of giving it to poor people.

if they pay themselves salaries and they have an office thats fine. if the office cost two million, the ceiling is a hundred feet high, and instead of dixie cups they are drinking golden chalices, screw them.

ah, but that’s the catholic church. and not even necessarily the catholic church of today. many don’t do that anymore. but they used to, back during the renaissance and the enlightenment. still, that’s not christians in general. i have yet to see a protestant or nondenominational or baptist (etc) church do that sort of thing.