There is no perfect justice, without god. Injustice is inherent in our reproduction; in the endowment of genes, we are made to be different people, through nature; let alone nurture. The difference between man and man is great, in a context relative to good and quality of life.

God accounts for this injustice through divine judgment though; on the day of reckoning. Every tiny factor is taken into account, even those “as small as a mustard seed.” According to the Quran.

Assuming this can account for all injustice in terms of the oppressed. How about the oppressor?

Where does evil come from, what drives man to do evil things? I can understand some of it is taught and perhaps a little genetic, but where is it rooted?
Or is that it, genes and upbringing. But that contradicts the existence of any point to our living, as far as I can see? Unless god endows us all with divine inspiration from time to time, as well as through divine interference, like a teacher trying to help all of his/her students get good grades; allowing for change and development to enter a person in increments, based on the way that a person ignores rebelliousness. Still.

Lets say there is a force of good withing a person, and a force of bad.
What makes either win?
And is either of those forces inside us or outside us, relative to human consciousness. Human consciousness being defined as the awareness which allows for the ability to judge, based on sensory information and our bodies natural responses. Or is there more information I am not taking into account, perhaps hereditary? Or possibly even another category. Maybe my definition of human consciousness is at flaw?

If god created evil to test men, why isn’t he clear to the extent that when people perform sins they feel as if they are directly disobeying what gods commanded?

Perhaps evil is the lack of good, another synonym for good being obeying god.
If god is unclear though, how can we be expected to do good?

Or perhaps my misunderstand is my souls own fault? Perhaps the answer lies in my ability to be studying religion, and/or exercising my mind right now? My desires often allow for confusion and drive away that possibility-is this the definition of bad?

Ultimate question:
What separates a soul in hell, from a soul in heaven?

A soul on earth. …no, wait, that’s what unites the two! #-o

So far as “perfect justice” goes, I’m leaning to the idea that the very conception of justice rules out there being anything perfectable about it. That is, the very fact that we find ourselves in a reality where justice is fundamentally in question already extinguishes the possibililty of it’s becoming “perfect”, much as you allude to in terms of the problem of evil. “Perfect justice” would need to be a basic reconception of what Justice even is.

I came across a quote the other day from an unpublished essay by, of all people, John Rawls’ (early 1990s) which makes the very point:

My best guess would be unforgiven sin.

to oughtist: Lol. Nice! Freaking emo.

But, if atheism is also an impossibility?

Then I’d guess “justice” would be off my shopping list. Either there’s a (personal) God who “gets me” or who “rejects me”, I’ve given up on trying to play that second-guessing game (pending, at least, new and directly revelatory information). Or, there’s a God who is beyond all personhood, and issues of egoic judgement are actually little mind-games we sub-geniuses play amongst ourselves, in which case there’s nothing to worry about, so far as I can figure… :smiley:

So here it looks as if justice and god cant coexist.
But nothing can exist without god.

What business might god have in being unjust, and why would he take it so easy if that his intent.

Maybe the discrepancy between god and justice lies in our imperfect ability to comprehend? Same reasoning I’ve seen in some atheists.


Maybe justice, in terms of god, isn’t a question of good?
And maybe an example for this is how people who suffer often don’t commit suicide…?

Is it unjust to give a hobo one meal and give another two?

Ya, there’s a crap load of stuff that lies in our imperfect ability to comprehend. :wink:

Depends I guess on which one’s hungrier… maybe they could share?

If justice isn’t a question of good in God’s terms, then God and Humanity are at a very serious impasse…

Hmm, yeah. I meant to say good in terms of god, and good in term’s of human beings could be different things. I can imagine the discrepancy isn’t too much though.

But maybe that difference is the cause of my confusion.

I’ve often wondered whether God thinks in terms of “terms”… :-k

it all comes down to free will god can not force you to do good and in most cases does not even try and influence you to do good. Its all you choice all that he does is giving you the ability to know whats right and whats wrong in your heart.n and yes when you are judged everything is taken into account.
as to where did/ does evil start. Some of it comes from the choice a soul makes. If you look back in history I think greed originally spawned evil, good people that wanted a little more and then a little more until they were willing to do anything to get it, ie doing evil. people want money and power and these things corrupt them.

Now if you want to get into why there is good and evil instead of a perfect world of all good. I believe that you have to experience both to become a completed soul.
we are reincarnated many times and at least one of those times we must be evil so we know what its like from the inside without pain happiness has no meaning and without evil where does the pain come from.

when it all comes down to it, its a test god created angels to be perfect and only good but some became evil and caught god of guard, so I believe that god created earth so that a soul can experience both good and evil before it makes its choice. that way it will keep that bad souls out of heaven.
you don’t know someone is good if you never give them a chance to be evil, but if someone has lived a life of both and chooses good then that person is not likely at all to ever change there mind and go against you because they already know what the other side is like and choose to be good.

Right, so ultimate justice doesn’t occur within history. That doesn’t efface justice as universal symbol that stands above and judges history.

Ya, I could agree with that Felix… but like any ideal, I don’t put weight on the idea of it’s acheiving a material (or meta-material?) state of perfection. Rather, it’s intuitive strength as a concept is virtually defined by its deficiency in reality.

I hadn’t thought of it that way. So Justice is inferred from from it’s absence in the real world? It is also modelled on relatively successful approximations, isn’t it?

Ya, I think so… maybe something like hunger & satiation: we’re never perfectly satisfied (at least if that implies a permanent temporal condition… perhaps there’s an argument for discrete & temporary perfect justice?)

It’s an instance of the problem of universals. Goodness, beauty, truth, justice. Grade school children already have a sense of fairness, the precursor to a sense of what is just. Yet the issues which we cobble together under justice are not all the same. In one instance equality is the criteria, equity in the next and so on. So it seems that justice is an aegis for a lot of different matters with perhaps no more than a “family resemblance” as I think Wittgenstein said of so-called universals. Yet I think as ideals universals do serve a purpose in that they orient one toward a general goal which nevertheless must be particularized in each concrete situation.

Makes sense to me! Though it continues to leave the judge on the bench that difficult chore of comprehending discression. In terms of the OP’s theist framework, would this amount to “Perfect Justice” arriving by default upon God’s judging the last particular soul? That is, as a quantitative rather than a qualitative determination?