Just wondering

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

As the moderators will probably move this down
here anyway, so I shall place this here in mundane babble.

I am glad to see the village idiot speaking about
a marriage constitutional amendment because it must mean
we have so few problems, we can devote time to a social
issue that is of concern to only a small percentage of right wing
radicals in america. It must mean the Iraq war, high gas prices,
the Afghanistan war, the upcoming Iran war, the failing economy,
education and immigration problems have all been solved.
I mean why else would we devote such a waste of time, money
and effort to such a small problem. So I take this as very good
news that there is not a single big issue that can take our
attention away from from this amendment. So when can we
expect the troops to come home from an obviously solved
situation in Iraq?

By the way, did we win?

Kropotkin

2

I notice the village idiot spoke of activist judges
stopping the will of the people. Dam Straight.
I mean those Judges, I mean activist judges,
stopped Jim crow laws. You know those laws of the people
preventing those dam uppity black folks from doing
silly things like voting and having rights and all that.
Yah, those activist judge preventing the will of the people
in continuing to keep blacks from having rights.
That is just dam against the will of the people.
And what’s up with letting women have any rights.
Those dam activist judge went and let those women
have rights and jeez let them out of the kitchen,
where they were properly barefoot and pregnant.
What the hell is the matter with those dam activist judges
who think women are smart enough to vote and hold jobs.
Jeez, again preventing the will of the people by actually giving
people rights. Activist judges will the death of america when
they are allowed to let people have rights. No rights for anyone
unless they are white males over 21. that is the will of the people.
and no dam activist judge can stop the will of the people.
The will of the people is to prevent anyone from having any rights
whatsoever and no activist judge is going to stop that.
Go village idiot. Stop those activist judges from preventing
me, my constitutional right to discriminate against anyone
I want.

Let’s go discriminate against someone. Its our legal right.

Kropotkin

3

So PK, I expect that you are against Bush’s constitutional right to exercise his freedom of religious expression, are you? You are happy discriminating against the beliefs and feelings of millions upon millions of rightwing Christians, all in the name of your ‘liberal freedom’? You think that it’s liberal to deny Christians this freedom that is protected by the constitution, do you?

4

someoneisatthedoor: So PK, I expect that you are against Bush’s constitutional right to exercise his freedom of religious expression, are you? You are happy discriminating against the beliefs and feelings of millions upon millions of rightwing Christians, all in the name of your ‘liberal freedom’? You think that it’s liberal to deny Christians this freedom that is protected by the constitution, do you?"

K: Bush is in a slightly different position then I am.
As president of the U.S. he can have personal positions
of religion, but as president he cannot push his personal
beliefs on people via constitutional amendments.
The fact of religion does not fit into this, the fact of his
pushing his religious agenda on america and the world is very
objectionable. The founding fathers idea of government and
religion was very simple. To keep the two separate. The government
of the U.S. cannot have an official position in regards to religion.
And the administration has made it official position to advocate
a certain type of religion and this is wrong, both in regards to
spirit and letter of law and of the constitution.
So yes, he can believe in purple wombats from Jupiter for all I care,
but when he makes it official government policy to support
the religion of purple wombats, that’s when I object.

Kropotkin

5

Bush is merely exercising freely - who are you to stand against the constitution in this way? Are you in favour of removing the right to freedom of religious expression for ALL Americans (including the Pres’dent) from the constitution?

This would appear to make your objections to Bush’s amendment to the constitution hypocritical.

Don’t blame me, you’re the one with a Constitutional Republic for a country.

This is what you get when you base life, culture, law and so on on textual document. Funny, you can evidently see the flaws with using the Bible as a basis for all this but not with the US Constitution.

6

I must stand with PK on this. Laws in the USA, while based on general morality should not be based on any particular religious belief. Our leaders are taking the bit in their mouths and running away with power that is bought by corporate backing and Christian Churches. Leaders can voice their opinions but, they are supposed to stand by the majority of their constituents, not wealthy minority groups. Sadly they are corrupted by the money and power and care little for those that truly need their leadership.

I mean really, what business is it of anyone if two consenting adults choose to be married? That is revoking an innocent pursuit of happiness and innocent freedom of choice. Our Gov’t needs to address real issues not this stupidity and B.S. I say take the politicians out to the whipping post with a cat-o- nine tails, and better yet not pay them till they get back on track. It is wrong they they get paid as much as they do for screwing us, they should only make minimum wage. Think how much money would be in the coffers if our “leaders” were paid a more acceptable wage in line with a blue collar worker. I believe laws would be made to help the average joe rather then break their backs if our leaders had to exist with in an average joe budget.

7

Kris,
Stop trying to use common sense and acting reasonable. It looks foolish. You know the fix is in. The country is now being asked to engage in a great debate about the “sanctity” of marraige. That we’re involved in an endless war, we’re bankrupting our great-grandchildren, having an energy deficit, and other assorted quibbles is beside the point. It’s about bread and circuses. As long as they don’t interrupt our soaps and reality TV they can get away with looting the country and we won’t do a damned thing about it. You know that and they know that. It’s America.

The new answer is always the same: It’s 9/11.

8

The freakin’ US Constitution"]
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
[/quote]

S: Bush is merely exercising freely - who are you to stand against the constitution in this way? Are you in favour of removing the right to freedom of religious expression for ALL Americans (including the Pres’dent) from the constitution?

K: He is not just merely exercising freely, exercising cost money :smiley:
Yah, anyway, He is taking a religious position which is great,
but trying to pass laws and constitutional amendments based on
that religious position is wrong and against the idea of the constitution.
He is trying to put into law "an establishment of religion.

S: This would appear to make your objections to Bush’s amendment to the constitution hypocritical.
Don’t blame me, you’re the one with a Constitutional Republic for a country.

K: He (village idiot) can believe in anything he wants, and can
say so, but to create laws in support of that religion is
against both the spirit and letter of the law. that is my point.
He cannot create laws to support a certain religious position.
Government must stay neutral in matters of religion.

S: This is what you get when you base life, culture, law and so on on textual document. Funny, you can evidently see the flaws with using the Bible as a basis for all this but not with the US Constitution."

K: My point is a very basic and simple one. It exist for both
the bible and the constitution. But the bible is not the constitution.
You cannot take the bible and create laws from it. The constitution
is the basis of our laws. The bible is a religious document for
certain religions. The constitution is a legal document.

Kropotkin

9

More proof that bush is totally out of touch with america.

Results from a recent Gallup poll taken May 22-24 and compared
with an identical poll taken April 10-13. The question was:
“What one or two issues should be top priorities for the President
and congress to deal with at this time”

                                May                           April

Situation in Iraq/war 42 29

Fuel/oil prices/lack of
energy sources/the
energy crisis 29 13

Immigration/
illegal aliens 23 20

Economy in general 14 14

Poor health care/
hospitals; high cost of
health care 12 9

Terrorism 4 3

Education/poor
education/access to
education 4 4

Federal budget deficit/
federal debt 3 3

Unemployment/jobs 3 3

taxes 3 2

Social security 2 2

International issues/
problems 2 2

National security 2 5

Environment/pollution 2 1

Medicare 2 2

Foreign aid/
focus overseas 2 2

Poor leadership/
corruption/dissatisfaction
with government/congress
politicians/candidates 2 1

Poverty/hunger/
homelessness 1 1

ETHICS/MORAL/
RELIGIOUS/FAMILY
DECLINE 1 1

So the 19th most important issue to Americans is
the family values issue. We have a congress dealing with
the 19th most important issue in america!
What the hell is the matter with these idiots?

Kropotkin

10

Aww, c’mon Peter, you already know. The least important issue in the minds of must Americans is the MOST important issue in the minds of the fundamentalist Christian neo-cons. Since the Republican “majority” hangs by the tiny thread of keeping these people happy, it doesn’t take rocket science to figure out how to spell pandering.

11

The right wingnuts hate and fear facts.
Why, because they deal with emotions and feelings.
The facts are never on their side. (which is why they
hate science) The way to fight them is with facts.

As far as pandering goes, the only time the GOPers,
bring up the marriage amendment is during the election
year. They can’t even run to their old chestnut,
tax cuts, this year because of the multi-trillion
dollar deficit, which they cause with their
irresponsible tax cuts. (welfare for the rich programs)

Kropotkin

12

But Peter you know that Congress creates the laws, not the President. You know that he doesn’t even care about this issue - he is, as tentative says, merely pandering. And you know what it takes to add a new amendment. This thing will never fly. Given his poll numbers, I’m not sure W. is even helping. The Republicans are not lining up to have their pictures taken with him anymore. And the deficits were not caused by the tax cuts, they were caused by out-of-control (GOP) spending.

Nothing bad is gonna happen.

To gay marriage, at least - it will continue to gain ground on the state level, and one day will be accepted. You know that.

13

faust, I have to disagree. States will continue to pass discriminatory laws because reason isn’t the issue. This country is running on fear and emotion, and as long as that is in place, such stupidity is almost as Tenet put it, “a slam dunk.”

Fair and equal treatment under the law? We mouth the words, but what we want is fair and equal treatment for us. Screw everyone else. It’s the American Way. …actually it seems to be the way almost everywhere, now that I think about it. :astonished:

14

THREAD MOVED TO SOCIAL SCIENCE FORUM.

15

Tentative, until recently, same-sex marriage was illegal everywhere. Now, it’s legal in Massachusetts, and some civil-union rights are granted in Vermont, for instance. Rhode Island is considering allowing full marriage or some form of civil union - which is the part that counts. The Massachusetts law was actually brought about by a lawsuit and similar suits are pending in other states. There has already been progress. New York could be next.

Gay people have been migrating from the shitholes of america to more liberal places in america for a very long time. That will continue, especially if there is more to gain from it. The real issue is civil rights - rights of inheritance and medical decision-making, for instance. Progress in this area can be made piecemeal, and is. Parts of america are better places for gays to live than they were even a few years ago.

Many more people in this country will accept the enhancement of finacial and legal rights for gays than will accept that thing we call “marriage”. The strategies employed so far have been only partially successful, but that is because the gays are fighting emotion with emotion - they are often going for all at once, and lack patience. I don’t think that will last. There are states that allow some of these rights, but won’t allow a full marriage. This must be capitalised on.

Myself, I think it’s all very unfortunate. I am still a legal resident of Massachusetts, I still spend a lot of time there. Since gay marriage has been allowed, do you know what has happened? Nothing. I agree wholeheartedly that the religious right is about as wrong on this issue as they usually are.

The religious right wants no casinos, no barrooms, no whorehouses, no gays, no fun. They sure don’t want me. They are a pain in the ass, as far as I am concerned. And sometimes they thwart casinos, yet there are still plenty. If you can afford to gamble in one, you can afford to get to one. If you can afford a hooker, you can find one - but you can’t find them everywhere. I am saying that they never win absolutely. There are dry towns, yet the country is full of alcohol. This issue is no different, it’s just new. The fight has only just begun.

Does it make sense to persecute gays? Not to me, no. But remember when the religious right wanted to boycott Disney (which does extend employee benefits to gay partners)? It didn’t work. The opposition to gays is not as fierce as the rhetoric would suggest. Disney is a company that employs many gay people. Bible Belters love Disney. There are many cracks in their armour.

16

Bush most certainly can do this- although it’s almost certainly election year grandstanding he knows won’t go anywhere. He’s throwing his conservative homies a bone, here.

Here’s the problem: it’s easy to talk about amending the Constitution. But despite all the big talk, no one really wants to do it, and heres why- once you do so you’ve opened Pandora’s Box. While you’re doing it, why not tweak a few other things, too?

See, the liberals would love to use White-Out on the 2nd Amendment. The conservatives would love to blot out the 1st. Actually, they’d probably both love to wipe their asses with the entire Bill of Rights, but that’s another issue. The point is, titanic hubris aside, most of them realize that A) the framers of that document were light years ahead of the typical elected moron of today and B) the same things we curse also sustain us. Better to stick with the devil you know.

And yes, like or not, the Constitution has been amended before. Bush, and any other citizen for that matter, is well within their rights to change it, so long as they go thru the proper steps to do so. It may be stupid, but there’s no dearth of stupidity in politics. Here or in the rest of the world.

17

Gosh Tent, All I have is acting reasonable, and really I wouldn’t know how to use common sense even if I knew what that meant. If I used common sense I think I would be running towards the deepest cave I could find and never come out. Of course that wouldn’t be acting reasonable because I am sure my family would find me.
I know that our benevolent keepers are feeding us sheep. Well at least the minor sheep, the major sheep are foraging on tumbleweeds and toxic water. I only wait for the enevitable.

Why do you think we live in the country. We lived through what happens to civilized sheep in the cities when a major catastrophe occurs, people go crazy and destroy each other. Out in the country folks still watch each others backs for the most part. We did and still do watch out for each other. Did you know that the reason most folks live in the country is for safety from people and the gov’t. it is easier to melt into the wilds if you don’t have to climb out of the concrete jungle with a million other desperate souls.
Our dear helpful Gov’t will deplete itself and the wealthy corporations will come out of the closet and rule, Wanna bet on it?

18

Hi Kris,

I don’t want to throw cold water on anything, but it makes no difference city or country. When our collection of graduates leave the “penal universities” where do you think they choose to live? Answer: Any place where law enforcement isn’t. Where is that? Out in the country! Watch each others backs all you can, but know that evil exists in the country just as much or maybe even more than the city. Is that cave starting to look good? :stuck_out_tongue: Mars is the only place I know of where we can explore the frontier and feel reasonably sane. Although I understand that the Golden Arches just bought some property there…

We don’t have to wait for the corporate people to come out of the closet. They already have done so. All the congressmen you can buy…

19

tentative: Mars is the only place I know of where we can explore the frontier and feel reasonably sane. Although I understand that the Golden Arches just bought some property there…

K: Right next to the wal-mart :smiley:

T: All the congressmen you can buy…"

K: I feel like such a loser. I am 47 and I haven’t had my own
talk show and I haven’t bought my own congressmen.

God, I should just kill myself now. :laughing:

Kropotkin

20

Peter,

Now now. You still have lots of time. Start doing heavy drugs and alcohol for about a year, then go into rehab , clean up, and write a book about how your mommy made you what you are, and your monumental struggle for recovery. Then get on a talk show and if you’re convincing, the producers will give you your very own victimized by being me show…