As above.Your obviously not here to learn are you
Sail on… best wishes. 
LOL,are we here to discuss Buddhism or just throw stones ? You spend more time on a philosophy forum than me so your wiser is that it ? Cmon
As above.Instead of arguing over territory why not find a solution,as I said before we can all throw stones,but it doesnt answer anything.Discuss reincarnation,and karma instead,the life of “the Buddha”. Not your own preferences,the thread isnt about your preferences but about Buddha and Gods
I respect the Dalai lama but I think its ridiculous that some people think he is the last word on Buddhism. Im sure he would agree with me saying that
One thing that is wrong about Tibetan Buddhism is that the monks do not have any system developed for training their bodies,its about the only form of Buddhism that doesnt emphasize martial arts and yoga or even breathing excercises. But you need breathing exercises,and the right diet,and the right physical workout to become enlightened. Siddhartha Gautama himself said this.Ive seen how many young Tibetan monks live in India,plenty of them are fat and unfit,this isnt any good
As a vegetarian I sat and ordered vegetarian food while in a cafe in India,but my tibetan monk friend ordered beef chow mein with fried egg,when he got his food and started eating he laughed half way through,“what is it?” I said “Dalai lama said today to make a special effort not to eat any meat or eggs in memory of Buddha,but Im eating meat and eggs,you are more of a monk than me” See,neither robes or 14 years of celibacy and meditation alone make you wise
The mistake too many people make is to assume that Buddhism just “allows” you to live as you please,and you can justify any bad habit you have,like eating meat,by saying something like “Dalai lama ate meat ?!?!?!” But vegetarianism is the default state of Buddha,eating meat is only tolerated by Buddhism,it isnt desired though . There have been tales of Siddhartha Gautama accepting alms which included meat,but so what ? People shouldnt assume that means eating meat is ok,Buddha could do a lot of things other less enlightened people cant do .You can be aspiring Boddhisattva and eat meat,but an actual Boddhisattva wouldnt want to still eat meat !
i agree. noone should be the last word on anything.
perhaps, but i really do not see how physical fitness should reflect enlightenment
im not looking for an argument but why is Siddhartha Gautama the last word on Buddhism?
respect is in wisdom (i think). but maybe he was just a forgetful monk
(forgive my innacuracies)from what i have learned the original Buddha sat underneath a Bohdi tree and vowed never to get back up until he had resolved all the thoughts in his mind (in a sense achieve enlightenment). i often wondered for no reason (as my name suggests). what the heck would be eat? he would probably be a vegetarian, maybe eating the odd catterpillar or 2 but besides that mostly bark and leaves 
Its why hindu sages/gurus/yogis and Daoist/Buddhist monks put so much emphasis on breathing techniques and yoga,tai chi is just another way of understanding yoga,only its designed as a form of self defense too
So Im agreeing with Boddhidharma,through experience,you need physical fitness,otherwise your in danger of being ill at ease and then your unable to meditate properly,and you are more likely to get ill,as aspiring Bodhisattva you must do yoga,become vegetarian,and pay your karmic debts as quickly as possible,do good deeds,lessen the harm you do to all creatures and sacrafice certain things which should be part of a normal life to hasten the freedom from past karma,practice celibacy,fast,take cold showers and baths,dont talk for long periods of time,this type of thing. But this isnt everyones karma to do this in the lifetime they experience now
Im not saying Siddhartha Gautama the man is the last word,Im saying the laws he discovered through meditation are,Im not saying the way to enlightenment is to copy Siddhartha Gautama in everything he done exactly, but having said that all forms of Buddhism are merely the results of people trying to understand him [ie,their own self] Siddhartha is the Buddha in Buddhist.So yes he is the best focus for a discussion like this I believe
And why listen to an interpretation anyway, someone elses opinion,why not do as he did and find what he found and then comment ?
Naturally,my point was just that people shouldnt imagine robes and years of monastic life make you “wise”. Knowing why you shouldnt eat meat is wise,but as I said before,tolerance is necessary because of the karmic cycle. The bodhisattva strives to reduce suffering,in himself and in others.What Im saying is he knew what he was doing was wrong,but was humble enough to admit it,and I am humble enough to respect him for that.But the law is still the law.To advance,minimal harm must be done,eating meat is not compatable with being Buddha for obvious reasons
When asked what to do about insects in a bathtub Siddhartha had asked his disciple to clean for him,Siddhartha replied that he only wanted to take a bath. He wasnt willing to get into a discussion about a few insects dying in the process of cleaning the bath tub,it was unavoidable,like death is. His journey was unavoidable,he had to go through it,but that he ate some meat while in the process doesnt mean eating meat is ok for those aspiring to become Bodhisattva,you have to remember that after his meditation of several years he became a changed man with a new philosophy,its that philosophy we should be looking at,since thats the point of his illumination.And that illumination describes a vegetarian state as the desired state of the Buddha,I also personally declare it as the state of Buddha
Physical fitness is at least in theory highly valued in Buddhism as a helpful support to practice. Taken to typical modern extremes that tool easily becomes a hindrance. There are Tibetan yogic exercises by the way. I’m sure many monks are out of shape though, which might not be the best state of affairs.
It is true that killing sentient life creates ‘bad’ karma according to the teachings of the gradual path. However, the killing of sentient life is impossible to avoid, as any gardener knows. A vegetarian state in and of itself is another matter though, and I believe that the Buddha instructed his monks to eat whatever was placed into their begging bowls. There are various stories about Buddhist adepts eating putrid flesh, and therefore for the purposes of the stories displaying equanimity and acceptance of the complex and contradictory world as it is.
By the way I was a vegetarian for many years and started eating meat again for health reasons. Although I am technically creating ‘bad karma’ according to the classic teachings, I am also maintaining the physical health that you are saying is so important. The world is filled with contradictions and it is not necessary to so summarily and earnestly take one particular side in a conceptual problem. Your Tibetan friend’s laughter in the face of his obvious breaking of a moral precept strikes me as a manifestation of wisdom and accomplishment. Yes, he sounds quite humble to me as you originally pointed out.
I disagree, for the reasons set forth above.
i agree in many ways. however you seem to almost accord ownership of enlightenment to Siddhartha.
the nature of enlightenment if attained by Siddhartha must mean that we can all achieve it to a degree even without his guidance.
trying to emulate or obey anyone but your own self corrupts your path to begin with
respect is one thing, but submission is another.
to sumbit is to say. “i cannot do it alone”
if one cannot achieve enlightenment alone then Siddhartha obviously was not fully enlightened.
to emulate in this sense is to try and get a head start on enlightenment, that may be the percieved cause of Buddhism.
but you know as well as i you cannot cheat or get a head start on the road to enlightenment.
actions without thought are autonomous.
you cannot simply take Siddharthas’ word for it even on the word of others. you must discover for yourself if being a vegeterain is the right path. if you dont eat meat because someone tells you not to, then your not enlightened, you are opressed.
Yeah I know,there are martial arts from tibet too but they arent as well known,it just seems to be modern Tibetan buddhists that dont involve themselves in the martial arts generally geocities.com/Colosseum/9358/book.html
Actually I dont believe we need meat for any reason at all. You can find everything you would get from meat in a vegetarian diet
Yes,but the real point is he wasnt accomplishing anything really,he carelessly ate meat through lack of control over the senses when he already had vegetarian options
Buddha permitted the eating of meat as a way of saying that the rules can be bent if need be,that attachment to anything is wrong,so should a monk really need to eat meat,he could eat it,and I agree with this,I would eat meat of course if I really had no other option,but unless thats the case I will never eat meat.From a Buddhist point of view there is bad karma attached to the killing of animals,the subtle substance of the animal interferes with your meditation,and its a strain on your digestive system,I have no desire for meat any more,yet,I could eat it quite easily if I had to,because Im not attached. But as a Buddhist you still have to observe specific laws or otherwise suffer.You will create bad karma if you cause suffering where no suffering is absolutely necessary
No I said
I already said several times before internal work,meditation,was the way we acheive enlightenment
I know,thats why I said earlier
Well I know for a fact that I do. I am well versed in all of the theory regarding complete proteins, traditionally prepared meals, the lack of vitamin B12 in processed seitan… the whole modern vegetarian outlook. There are a wide diversity of human body types, as traditional Chinese medicine as well as ayurveda recognizes. Vegetarianism simply doesn’t work for me. That doesn’t mean I can’t be concerned with the welfare of animals and it doesn’t mean I eat massive American-style quantities of meat. It does mean I have to face the reality of the complexities and contradictions of life in this world, which is a humbling and human experience. I think it might be worth your time to consider all the sentient beings that are killed for the sake of farming the vegetables which you survive on. Life isn’t so neatly divided up into pure/moral and impure/immoral.
Well you were there and I wasn’t. But there is only one person who really knows and it’s neither of us.
The Blood Type Diet under the spotlight
You say
You create a demand for slaughtered animals and so are responsible for the suffering involved from farm to table.It has to be said that if you truly cared about their welfare you wouldnt have them slaughtered
Where diet is concerned,most Hindu and Buddhist sages/monks seperate sentient beings into groups according to the negative and positive karma consuming them produces
Naturally I have thought about this,and mentioned that earlier
Of course I have thought it through,and thats why I too say its unavoidable things will die,because they must in order for me,for us to live,because we must eat something.But put breifly animals have a different vibration to plants,one which is far more harmful and chains us to the animal realm which interferes with our spiritual evolution.This is one of the reasons why eating vegetables and fish is more acceptable to the serious Hindu/Buddhist devotee than is eating meat
Huh?
Ok. There is a Chinese story about two men who decided they did truly care about the welfare of animals and also about living ‘purely’ in relation to food. They lived for a very short time on doe’s milk and fiddleheads before dying.
And of course they make those separations according to the type of culture they live in. According to Tibetans it’s considered better to eat a yak because through the death of one sentient being many were fed and in southeast Asia it’s considered better to eat many small fish because the ‘level of sentience’ in the fish is low. I don’t mean to say that challenging people to think about what they are doing is misguided, because I don’t think it is. On the other hand a broader view puts the whole thing into perspective and reduces the tendency towards judgmentalness.
Ok. I don’t remember what you said and can’t find it at the moment.
It’s not about animals versus plants. Millions of animals are killed in order to grow, harvest, transport, and preserve vegetables for your consumption. When you eat your food you are knowingly involving yourself in that process.
Fish isn’t meat? I’m guessing you live in or receive your values from a traditionally ocean-oriented culture. I could be wrong obviously.
It is worth noting that different schools treat the five precepts differently. Not all teachers demand that their students become upasaka and even in cases where the teacher suggests all five, not all students opt for them. In this regard, I think it is prudent to follow one’s own dharma teacher and not pass judgment on communities not one’s own. It makes more sense to worry about one’s own vows and work on maintaining those. Remember: you are Buddha, so it follows that if you engage in sincere practice you ought be able to make whatever degree of progress is possible for you.
Theres a theory that says some people must eat meat because of their blood type,I was just saying I dont think its true
Well,no,thats what Im trying to say,becoming a vegetarian is absolutely necessary in order to become a Buddha,I dont think its culture that determines how Hindu/Buddhist sages come to these conclusions,its more all the internal work they do,they notice the differences for themselves. Im saying vegetarianism is the default state of enlightened humans . And I think a problem you might be having is in seeing a vegetarian diet as bland and unexciting,you might say as well that mountain dwelling people must eat meat,like tibetans,because its so cold,but this is basically nonsense,what would be wrong with living off rice,butter,milk,honey,porridge,lentils,bread,vegetables ? You can still cook in a cold climate, being vegetarian isnt about eating raw food. Theres plenty of proteins in vegetables and tofu,a bit of imagination is required. However,as Ive said numerous times already meat is not forbidden,and each person has a different karma,Xunzian has already explained why its possible to have these differences in opinion and for all opinions to be right
So whats most important is not to be judgemental of others,to be compassionate,and bother about your own vows and commitments rather than those of everyone else. Essentially,we shouldnt make others feel bad without good reason. Because everyone is at a different place when it comes to becoming Buddha. The point I was making with my monk friend was that he was humble enough to accept he just wasnt cut out to become enlightened in this lifetime,but he still recognized vegetarianism as the only way to become Buddha,a Dichotomy,and one we in the west find hard to deal with. My friend both accepts he needs meat and that he is weak because of it,thats the point.So what we need to see from people studying Buddhism is humbleness of this sort,not argumenmts against the teachings of Buddha,and the Buddha did teach that vegetarianism is the preferred diet,for obvious reasons
It is
I disagree,as far as I know millions of animals do not get slaughtered so I can enjoy vegetables ?
Well I would be if there were any negative process created in the first place,but as far as I know there isnt,or at least,Ive seen to it that the level of harm I create is absolutely at a minimum,as Ive said before,things must die,I have no problem with that,but I am careful to ensure the least harm is done if I have to harm at all. How I eat doesnt involve the suffering of millions of animals
Disciple of light: I didn’t stop being a vegetarian because it was bland food. In fact it was delicious and nutritious. I stopped because my health was seriously deteriorating. My wife has permanent nerve damage from it. Please stop making assumptions, and taking truths about yourself to be true of everyone in the world. It is a major criticism of religion in general and it is well founded.
You do realize that millions of worms, insects, etc. are killed in order to grow vegetables? But then if you don’t think fish are sentient…
And that is your karma. I wouldn’t worry about it too much, enlightenment is a gradual process and it would seem that your karma, at this time, is too great for it to come. It’s OK, the only marks of a Buddha that I’ve got are big floppy ears and wee. Focus on the vows you’ve taken, and go from there.
Your becoming defensive for one reason or another,theres no need to be,Im not attacking you
That isnt the same as saying “you think vegetarian food is bland”,this is a discussion after all,am I not aloud to think now ?
Of course I do,but worms and insects arent exactly animals,they arent exactly
as you first described them.They are only worms and insects,and how many times must I tell you Im aware of this and it doesnt concern me as it never concerned Siddhartha,look over my posts,how many times ?
Im still vegetarian after all these years,because vegetarianism never was a trend for me,never was something I done to attract attention,like most of the people I know who were once vegetarian.
I became vegetarian because my present karma dictates I should be vegetarian,it was a natural progression
Are you talking to me ?
I understand it unsettles some of you [as Buddhists] to hear that vegetarianism is the ultimate way,I assume many of you have already thought about the question of vegetarianism deeply,and for one reason or another fail to abide by it,but you should be humble about all this,just as my monk freind was,it doesnt mean your not good Buddhists,but please observe the laws and respect them in word even if not in deed,you will not kill without just cause,this is the law plain and simple . If your “just cause” rests on your feeling weak,and tired,you best make sure it really is because you actually require meat,otherwise as I say you are only accumulating bad karma,it will need paid off. I would ask you to consider the shaolin monks of China,are they weak and tired ? No,yet they are vegetarian,how come they arent weak and tired,and how come the vast majority of sages/Sadhus/babas/Gurus of India arent either ? Im saying that the eating of meat for most people is the product of their own illusions,their sensual desire,a lack of control over their body and mind,and nothing to do with actually requiring nutrition from it. Why do you think Buddha himself described the negative mind as he did? Because its dangerous if you dont keep it [your ego] under control,your mind is dangerous and will lead you into making all sorts of mistakes. Having said that,we are all just journeying along
I’m concerned about people’s health. Aren’t you?
No, I was talking to Anon. I would agree that from a Buddhist perspective vegetarianism is clearly better than a meat-eating diet. It would seem at the moment that Anon’s karma prevents a vegetarian diet, and so I was simply pointing out that it needn’t be a big concern as long as the practice is sincere.
I agree completely