'Kid in a sweet shop' feminism

[someoneisatthedoor]

Mastriani,

@Mastriani

Put simply, we haven’t broken out of the model of father-as-breadwinner to anything like the extent that we’ve broken out of the mother-as-homemaker model. In truth we’ve not even left the latter behind to the extent that I’d prefer, but the iconography of males and the institutional dynamics concerning them are, in certain key ways, more obstructive and limiting than those facing females.

Not sure which part you thought I was generalizing about?

You implied that there was only one reaction to stay at home dads, father-homekeepers, whatever you want to call them. I considered this a generalisation.

On the social aspect, it is likely to have to accept that criticism.

As far as on the home issue, no, not generalizing there. My wife will admit that with children, (all of them older, no infants/toddlers), I can maintain a more peaceful and productive household. She is definitely superior with children in the formative years. Which I personally believe is a more natural model for the situation, mothers for the nuturing years, fathers more for structure. Not that equalizing elements aren’t present in both genders, it just appears that is how it generally ends up in practice.

Sure sure, some vestige of femininity and masculinity always remains. Dead men’s echos drown my words, etc. etc…

One thing I heard on the radio the other day (BBC radio news is excellent, I recommend it to all who can get it, the comedy is also very good) during a discussion about articulacy and literacy among the young was that mothers tend to answer questions with straighforward, closed answers, language that is largely redundant whereas fathers have a greater tendency for wordplay, humour and so on, where the language is more entropic. Now, as any communications theory graduate can tell you, both are necessary for language to be effective, both have to be mastered in order to use language meaningfully. I’m just wondering whether or not this has always been the case i.e. whether the primary childrearer is inevitably predisposed to use more redundant language while relating to their children. I just thought that I’d throw that claim into the mix…

Again, I can’t speak for you country, but in America, the only way the “stay at home” father scenario will work out where society accepts it, is only if at the same time the complete emascualtion of the male is accepted as well. For this country, that doesn’t seem a likely scenario … we grow more barbaric all the time, even though it is a PC society.

There is no balance - Derrida. As far as I’m concerned the equilibrium (a phrase used mainly by people significantly older than me, it seems) is a myth, there is only the ongoing possibility of transformation and transvaluation. Particularly in this society but possibly in all that have nations, language, writing and weaponry you will inevitably see contrasting forces at play in any given place. It would help if TV advertisers and program makers didn’t adopt the Simpson’s family model every time of
mother: responsible, moral centre, smart, hardworking
father: idiotic layabout, only good because he brings in a wage, essentially an extra child
daughter: precocious, talented, beautiful
son: pale replica of father, smelly, lazy, thick, grunting

• extra children as required

This model is more patronising to males than females while simultaneously placing more pressure (or at least expectation) on the females than the males. It basically screws everyone over. It would also help if there were more than 2 types of male on DIY/Gardening/buying and selling homes TV shows. In Britain the 2 are the brute and the fag. One is inarticulate, deep voiced, talks about MDF a lot, is always carrying some sort of power tool; the other is inarticulate, floundering, usually wearing purple or pink or light blue, high voiced, talks about curtains a lot. Now, I have the self confidence to be able to shun both of these stereotypes but I’m well aware that many others aren’t so capable and that it causes them all sorts of problems.

LOL … I wouldn’t see any issue with a female referee at all, other than her being required to be assertive, dealing with hostile competitors in the heat of the moment. Football always has it’s rogue’s and hotheads. (still the best sport ever)

Given that most male football refs are shorter, weaker and slower than the players I don’t see that a female ref would make much difference, she’ll still be smaller, weaker and slower than the players. Same difference…

I do remember an article about this very subject where in matches being refereed by someone of the opposite gender there tended to be less violent play and fewer contested decisions. I don’t know why this might be, perhaps you or someone else would like to speculate.

[Mastriani]

You implied that there was only one reaction to stay at home dads, father-homekeepers, whatever you want to call them. I considered this a generalisation.

Ah, yes. Well, naturally I was speaking from my experiences, and with brutal honesty it can be said that no one, not even someone who claimed to be “a good friend” cut me any breaks. I was assaulted weekly by my father, my wife’s father, and at least once a month, my grandfather … about what a poor representation of a male I was being to my children. I believe at one point, both father and grandfather reached the same concensus … “only a weak person, lacking self-respect, and respect for their family image, would allow their wife to work to support the family”.

Just my experience, is all I can say, generalization or not.

Now, as any communications theory graduate can tell you, both are necessary for language to be effective, both have to be mastered in order to use language meaningfully. I’m just wondering whether or not this has always been the case i.e. whether the primary childrearer is inevitably predisposed to use more redundant language while relating to their children. I just thought that I’d throw that claim into the mix…

This seems a fair representation, in my familial observations, both as a child and parent. Likely, something built into the gender roles model over time.

I still remember my mother chastizing my father for using language with me and my brother, that she felt was “unnecessarily difficult”.

My wife has accused me of doing the same. Not exactly empirical, but at face value, it probably isn’t easily refuted.

This model is more patronising to males than females while simultaneously placing more pressure (or at least expectation) on the females than the males. It basically screws everyone over. It would also help if there were more than 2 types of male on DIY/Gardening/buying and selling homes TV shows. In Britain the 2 are the brute and the fag. One is inarticulate, deep voiced, talks about MDF a lot, is always carrying some sort of power tool; the other is inarticulate, floundering, usually wearing purple or pink or light blue, high voiced, talks about curtains a lot. Now, I have the self confidence to be able to shun both of these stereotypes but I’m well aware that many others aren’t so capable and that it causes them all sorts of problems.

Again, it’s unreasonable to speak about the social conditions in your country, but here … that is the entirety of the available models for the male. You are correct, it definitely screws everyone.

Because of my father’s/grandfather’s input, I naturally gravitated towards the barbarian model. Conversely, all the females in the family presented a very strong feminine model, so my appreciation of art, music, and nature is also very strong. Hence, I was naturally set up to fail socially, within the Amerikan system because, (from other people’s perceptions of me), it comes across as an intimidating articulator personality … normally defined as overt male arrogance/dominance, or another description was “misfit”. LOL.

I do remember an article about this very subject where in matches being refereed by someone of the opposite gender there tended to be less violent play and fewer contested decisions. I don’t know why this might be, perhaps you or someone else would like to speculate.

On a best guess basis, it would be a split between the embedded chivalry model and social pressure of not appearing to be an abuser under social observation. That seems acceptable in the context given.