Kropotkin as educator

Social Forums Non-Philosophical Chat
1

(for the purpose of this op, I shall refer to myself in the third person)

Kropotkin as educator!? Is this a wise thing or is this a bad thing?

What does Kropotkin teach?

He teaches liberal values which are basically values we teach children.
He teaches sharing is good. Share and share alike. We teach children
to share what they have. If there is a cake, no one child gets to eat anymore
than their fair share.

He teaches equality. We praise children equally and we reward them equally.

He teaches people need to work together. Many hands make light work.
If everyone shares in a work project, then no one person is working overly hard.
We teach children to work on projects together.

He teaches tolerance. We don’t allow children to make fun of or pick on other children.
He teaches that we should build up people self-esteem. We also build up children self-esteem.
Children who feel better about themselves do better in life.

He teaches that we should have big dreams.
We teach children to dream big and believe they can become anything they want to be.

Kropotkin teaches that what we really teach is not math or reading or science,
we teach how to be a better person.

He teaches we should tell the truth. We tell children the story of George Washington and
how he confessed to chopping down the apple tree. He teaches how we should face truths.
If you believe there is no god, then you should admit it, face the truth.

He teaches dissent. We should never be afraid to say what we believe, no matter what.
Even if the whole world is against you, always speak what you feel is right.
We teach children to stand up to bullies.

Kropotkin also teaches, we are human. Humans are defined not by our success, but
how we deal with our failures. We dust ourselves off and try again and try again and try again.

Kropotkin teaches values that are simple and wise. Be yourself and try to make the world a better place
everyday. Even if you can only do a small thing to make the world a better place, then do it. A small thing
is better than no thing.

Kropotkin teaches don’t accept the status quo if the status quo needs changing.
fight for what you believe is right.

Kropotkin believe everyday in everyway, we can make this a better world for our children.
We teach children to clean up after themselves. Leave the sand box a cleaner place then you found it,
for the next children to play in. We need to leave the world in a better place than we found it, for the
children who are going to play in it next.

We teach children to think of the future and of others. Kropotkin teaches this.
He teaches of always looking for the bigger picture in every situation.
What is the big picture?

Kropotkin teaches the greatest pride one should have is in being human and being alive.
At each step, we have taught children to take pride in the family, the clan, the village,
the city, the state, the country, and now we are teaching taking pride in the earth and
in our being human. At each step, the focus has grown larger and larger. Today we are teaching
the next step and leaving pride in nation behind and moving onto the next phase, which is
every human is family and then all life is family. Like children, we have expanded our focus beyond
our selves and our everyday actions.

Kropotkin

2

I think this is a rather bad thing to do, contrary to its ostensible goodliness.

As a matter of fact, this only reduces the potency of the reward. What value does a reward have, when its accessibility is, in essence, ready for all? Imagine it kind of like this: your girlfriend, who you love very much, tells you that she loves you very much too, that you mean the world to her. You later discover that she says this exact same thing to 100 different men! Ignore the dating-rules dynamics aspect of this right now and focus more on the potency of her words of endearment…don’t you feel they would become valueless, since they are equally applied to a sea of other men? It no longer becomes intimate, or personal, but rather run-through-the mill, meaningless.

If children are equally rewarded and praised, then they won’t strive as hard, and when they do, the value of their rewards will be diminished drastically. This is the eternal blemish of egalitarianism.

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K: He teaches equality. We praise children equally and we reward them equally.

E: I think this is a rather bad thing to do, contrary to its ostensible goodliness.

K: Then why do we praise children equally and reward them equally?

E: As a matter of fact, this only reduces the potency of the reward. What value does a reward have, when its accessibility is, in essence, ready for all? Imagine it kind of like this: your girlfriend, who you love very much, tells you that she loves you very much too, that you mean the world to her. You later discover that she says this exact same thing to 100 different men! Ignore the dating-rules dynamics aspect of this right now and focus more on the potency of her words of endearment…don’t you feel they would become valueless, since they are equally applied to a sea of other men? It no longer becomes intimate, or personal, but rather run-through-the mill, meaningless.

K: If you believe her words, why does it matter that she said a few or a thousand times? I’ve said I love you
to several women before I met my wife. Does it diminish in any way, when I tell her I love her?
No, of course not. What if I said it and meant it to not just several women but thousands of women,
Does it diminished it? No, the number is irrelevant. It is the words and the intent that count.

E: If children are equally rewarded and praised, then they won’t strive as hard, and when they do, the value of their rewards will be diminished drastically. This is the eternal blemish of egalitarianism.
[/quote]
K: and your evidence that they won’t work as hard is? and when they work, the value of their rewards will be
diminished greatly? you know this how?

Kropotkin

4

You teach them how to be feminine and how to delude themselves. You teach them how to focus on similarities and ignore differences and that’s how you teach them how to skew reality.

In order to make good social decisions you must take into account both similarities and differences. And since people are different, it is implied that you will have to treat people differently, which is to say, unequally. You wouldn’t treat a disease in the same way you would treat healthiness, right?

Ignore the differences and you become hyper-feminine, hyper-kind, hyper-social.

Ignore the similarities and you become hyper-masculine, hyper-aggressive, hyper-asocial.

Instead of teaching them equality, teach them reality, that people are unequal and that they should be treated based on their individuality.

This follows from equality: if people are equal then they should work together, shouldn’t they?

But the problem is that there is no equality and that people can only honestly cooperate with those who are sufficiently similar to them.

There is too much dishonest cooperation in this day and age. In fact, democracy itself is this hypocritical cooperation among cowards.

5

There is choice insofar there is rank.

There is rank insofar there are differences.

There is love insofar there is unlove.

If you love many things it implies that your love is weak.

A thing that is loved just as much as any other thing does not really feel loved. Rather, it feels disposable.

We do not love weak love because weak love implies weak cooperation.

A weak love is not a genuine love, it is a pretense betraying desperation and neediness.

A genuine one seeks a similar one.
A fake amd needy one seeks a different one.

Many are different from us, few are similar to us.

6

The thing is that if she said “I love you” to a thousand other man then you cannot believe her words. What you are trying to do here is exclude this little fact from your judgment.

7

Are you running for office, or superhero? This is just getting creepy.

8

He teaches we should tell the truth. We tell children the story of George Washington and
how he confessed to chopping down the apple tree. He teaches how we should face truths.
If you believe there is no god, then you should admit it, face the truth.

:slight_smile: God told me it was a cherry tree!

9

K: why Mr. derleydoo, I am so pleased to hear from you. I sent you a couple of e-mails.
I figured you were busy with life and all, so I didn’t press the matter.
How have you been? good, I hope. As for me, I can say this, “life is what happens when you had other plans”
I have been busy with life and work. my other plans were to win the lottery, retire and spend the rest of my
time reading, well that hasn’t happened, so I am just working and working and then working some more.
My body is too old and tired to work. I just want to take my naps and read my books. That’s all I want
out of life anymore, naps and reading. Instead I get unrelenting, soul crushing work. I am tired, Mr. Derleydoo,
I am very tired.

Kropotkin

10

K: He teaches equality. We praise children equally and we reward them equally."

MA: You teach them how to be feminine and how to delude themselves. You teach them how to focus on similarities and ignore differences and that’s how you teach them how to skew reality.

K: You are clearly not a parent or anyone who has anything to do with children.
Education is about children and children need, no, must have praise.
To praise children is not to make them feminine or weak or delusional, it makes them
better adults and that is the point of education. It doesn’t matter if they are good readers or
good at math or good at science if they are good adults. And by good, I believe the goal
of society is to raise children into adults that have certain values. I believe liberal values create
better citizens and better adults.

MA: In order to make good social decisions you must take into account both similarities and differences. And since people are different, it is implied that you will have to treat people differently, which is to say, unequally. You wouldn’t treat a disease in the same way you would treat healthiness, right?

K: if you get a cold, the Doctor well say, rest, drink plenty of liquids, take our vitamins.
He doesn’t give each person a different treatment, so for an athlete, he won’t say, go out
and run 20 miles and for a chess player, play 20 games of chess and you will be healthy.
far from it, sickness is treated roughly the same way for every person. Now some may not
be able to do certain aspects of the treatment, but for most people, if they rest and drink plenty
of liquids and take their vitamins, they will get healthy. Human beings are similar enough for the
same treatment for same disease will cure most people. If X happens with most people, the doctor will
treat it the same way. Do x, y and z and you will be fine. So yes, you can treat most people the same way.

MA: Ignore the differences and you become hyper-feminine, hyper-kind, hyper-social.
Ignore the similarities and you become hyper-masculine, hyper-aggressive, hyper-asocial.

K: Now we come to the mindless babbling portion of our show. Show me how in any way, shape or form
that these are true. Hyper-feminine? hyper-kind? I don’t even know what these mean.

MA: Instead of teaching them equality, teach them reality, that people are unequal and that they should be treated based on their individuality.

K: The problem is the word, “REALITY” whose reality are we talking about, because everyone has a
different reality. But we can still treat people with the same values such as kindness and tolerance
regardless of who they are. Where I work (grocery store) we have “special” people who are baggers,
I must tailor my words to each specific person because some will or won’t understand my request but
I can still treat each person with dignity, respect, kindness, I say please and thank you, a lot and
I praise them. I treat them like human beings, not special or different, but as human beings.

K: He teaches people need to work together. Many hands make light work.
[/quote]
MA: This follows from equality: if people are equal then they should work together, shouldn’t they?
But the problem is that there is no equality and that people can only honestly cooperate with those who are sufficiently similar to them.

K: You can work with everyone if you treat them with respect and kindness. Our similarities are
more important than our difference. I have a hearing loss and wear a hearing aid. I am different
and not equal to others who can hear, does that make me less of a human being? Does that mean I
am unable to cooperate with others who can hear?

MA: There is too much dishonest cooperation in this day and age. In fact, democracy itself is this hypocritical cooperation among cowards.
[/quote]
K: and we get to the real point. You feel superior to people. You can’t understand why people won’t admit
to your superiority and bow down to you. I have bad news. You aren’t superior. you are just average, like
everyone else. That is the great unspoken truth about people. We are average. some can add a little bit better
than others, and some can speak languages better than others, and some are a little bit smarter than others,
and some can run a little faster than others, so what? We are the same, you an I. You can hear better than
me and I can read body language better than you, (trust me, deaf people survive on reading body language)
and so what? We are just two more average people in the universe. There is no sharp demarcation line
between people, a line saying you are average and you are superior. There is just a matter of degrees.
Your ego will shout no, no, no, I am superior to people. I too one day shouted to the universe, I am
superior. Acknowledge my superior universe. the only sound I heard was laughter and it wasn’t laughing with
me, but at me. We are human beings and we are average. you are a human being and you are average.
accept this and then understand the other great unspoken truth, just by being human beings, we are
the most incredible species in the universe and we are average. Understand that and once you do,
be prepared to be amazed. For average human beings are amazing. We don’t need superiority,
we just need to be human and average and that is enough to take us to the stars and beyond.
We are human and that is the most amazing thing ever.

Kropotkin

11

The Ten Commandments that, as a teacher, I (Bertrand Russell) should wish to promulgate, might be set forth as follows:

Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.
Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.
Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.
When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.
Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.
Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.
Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent than in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter.
Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.
Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool’s paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness.

12

It is true, I am not a parent, but why would that lower the worth of my opinion? After all, I have myself as a child, in certain way, I myself am my own child, so I can have an opinion based on that self-interaction, can’t I?

You are not simply talking about praising children, you are talking about praising them equally, about praising them without regard to their differences, their individuality, and this is what is dangerous.

Praise must be administrated carefully, in appropriate doses. The more insecure the child, the more care there should be. This is because praise acts like a narcotic, it numbs the brain, it is a release from tension, it makes the brain forget and relax from the troubling, and those who are insecure perceive praise as a strong force. An insecure child lacking self-control – and children generally lack self-control – will be blown away by praise in the direction of narcissism.

Doctors use diagnoses to discriminate. One type of illness, one type of treatment. When they can, doctors individualize their treatments. If they could, they would do this all the time (some doctors already do this, but they aren’t real doctors.) If you want efficiency, you need precision; if you want precision, you need to recognize as many differences as possible.

Doctors, however, are decadents. He who spends most of his time on those who are unequal to him is a decadent. To take what they do and apply it to life in general is a mistake.

The geniune, the healthy one restricts or seeks to restrict himself to those who are closest to him. Doctors are impersonal, i.e. they lack personality, since they spend most of their time on strangers, foreigners and passangers. This applies to artisans and other labourers as well.

You wouldn’t want to teach people to be impersonal/mechanical/robotic, wouldn’t you?

Oh no, you are being mean to me now. Why are you being mean to me? Have I been mean to you?

I’ll explain it for you.

Hyper-kindness is an exaggerated need for kindness. Like every other exaggerated/hyper/artificial need, it is a consequence of cowardice. Here’s an example: a bunch of men decide to become friends in order to get rid of the unbearable feeling of loneliness. However, since they are so distinct from each other they would naturally never consider befriending each other, they are forced to suppress their differences, to blind themselves to reality and to immerse themselves in the illusion of uniformity, which expresses itself in the form of exaggerated/forced/hypocritical need to be kind to each other.

Hyper-aggressiveness, on the other hand, is born out of fear to confuse yourself with the other.

You cannot, your needs restrict you. You can go against your needs, of course, but that is unhealthy.

Your hearing ability is only one part of you. To determine your value, one has to take all of your abilities into account (or at least the most relevant ones, which hearing is certainly not.)

Actually, I don’t. Or rather, I don’t feel superior to reality which consists of other people. People individually, I may feel superior to them, but when everything is put together, I don’t.

There is no need for anyone to admit my superiority and bow down to me. I don’t exactly feel in position to command other people’s lives. In fact, I do not even want to command. Guide or influence, perhaps, but command? Command in the sense of spending my time telling inferior people what they should be doing, or exploiting them, no, I don’t like that, I don’t want that.

I can be anywhere on the rank, but one thing I refuse to believe is that I am similar to everyone else.

The proposition is ridicilous. I’d find it more plausible if you told me that I am inferior. Why? Because there is an obvious difference between the two of us, so no way in hell are we similar. You have to severely blind yourself to believe in a such a thing.

Yes, we totally are . . .

5

13

Yes…, but only were, in the same pond.

14

I think this is a creative OP. It calls upon seemingly innate ideas developed in childhood in a kind of universal and ingenuous milieu we have all experienced. if I can assume that PK leans left then it very much ties into George Lakoff’s metaphorical image of Leftist politics as the “hovering parent” model. Indeed the influence could be very strong. There is not a single rightist capitalist communist-hating parent of a child-bearing household which does not operate his household and his family by strict adherence to communist principles such as “From each according to his ability. To each according to his need.”

That there should be a wall of separation between how families are structured and how governments and marketplaces are structured used to be a given. Yet now the family structure is being eclipsed by the statist structure. So perhaps the Left is correct, that if we are going to make the state the substitute for the family then perhaps it should be structured like a family. We are all one big happy family and I will care for my fellow citizens with the same love I have for my close kin.

.