Kropotkin's problem with

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
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As it’s been noted, I have a problem with conservatives
and the right…but as the topic indicates, my problem is
epistemological in nature… which is to say, conservatives have
a real problem with facts and knowledge…for example, conservatives
claim, falsely as usual, that illegals cost America vast amount of tax
dollars… which has been disproven time and time again… study
after study…for example:

  1. Tax Contributions vs. Government Spending
  • Net Positive: Immigrant households generate vast surpluses for public coffers. For example, a study covering 1994 to 2023 found that immigrants generated $14.5 trillion more in federal, state, and local taxes than they induced in total government spending. [1, 2, 3]

K: but will conservatives ever acknowledge this, no, of course not…
and they are dishonest about so many other facts and information…
for example, the conservatives claim that illegals take away jobs from
Americans… but to get a job in America, requires one to have a social
security card… almost every single job I got, I had to have a social
security card… and in America, by law, to get a social security card,
one has to be a U.S citizen or have the department of homeland
security authorization… and to get SSI benefits, there are strict
rules about getting SSI while not a citizen… and applying for either
social security or SSI is very hard… nothing is issued automatically…

other examples of illegals being barred from certain privileges
for example, illegals can’t vote in federal elections, receiving
federal financial aid, and serving on federal juries… they also can’t
get most public benefits… for example, illegals can’t receive
public programs like welfare programs, including SNAP (food stamps)
TANF, and traditional Medicare…

Illegals cannot get real ID’s drivers licenses or US passports
and legally cannot ship, transport, possessing or receiving
firearms or ammunition…

these are epistemological problems because the right/conservatives
tend to lie about what illegals can or cannot do…
and one can easily extend the lack of knowledge the right/conservatives
have about not just illegals, but about the state of the inner cities,
about the nature of crime and who commits them, about stolen
elections… (didn’t happen.. voter fraud is very rare in 2016 for example,
the incident rate of voter fraud was between 0.003 and 0.0025…
which tells us that it is much more likely a person will be struck
by lightening then he will impersonate another voter at the polls
in a 2014 study by the Washington Post, found 31 credible instances
of impersonation fraud from 2000 to 2014, out of over 1 billion votes
cast… to change enough votes in an organized attempt to
create voter fraud is so unlikely, that one will win the
lottery before a large scale voter fraud can be committed…

In other words, the recent attempts, by the GOP/MAGA to
prevent voter fraud has nothing to do with fraud and everything
to do with disenfranchising as many non-whites as possible…

My problem with the right and conservatives lie within the nature
of being so ignorant as to be a clear and present danger to America…

another example of the right’s failure lies within police shootings…
we know, that in America the police kill over a 1000 people a year…
study after study shows us that…and yet, the police are never
the problem… but have an illegal alien kill someone, anyone,
that is enough to prompt the right/conservatives to
demand the execution/deportation of any and all illegal aliens…
which leads us the one of the real problems with the right/conservative,
and that is perspective… and that is a question of having opinions
vs facts/evidence… recently a poster, Ophelia I think, stated that
women were in danger in prison because of men who cosplayed
being women and then raping those women… She of course,
had no facts or evidence, she thought it true because IT FELT TRUE…
it was an opinion, nothing more…but she took as fact when there
were no facts to support her, just an opinion… this is part of the
epistemology that I have a problem with… she took her preconceived
notions, anti-trans/gay, and took them as reality, as the truth…
In Britain for example, there are roughly 88,000 thousand people
in prison… in 2023, the ministry of Justice implemented rules that
transgender women with male genitalia or those convicted of
sexual or violent crimes are no longer housed in women’s prisons…
and in British prisons, our of those 88,000 people in prison,
there are roughly 295 transgender persons in prison, either
in England or in Wales…of those 51 here held in women’s
prisons, the vast majority of whom are transgender men,
(assigned female at birth) this so-called crisis, isn’t…
and that is very typical of the right/conservatives…
create a problem that doesn’t even exists…
because for the right/conservatives, the real problem lies
within the failure to separate their own prejudices and
superstitions with reality… they hold that their bigotries
is reality… that blacks are criminals, that is the bigotry
and prejudice they hold and despite the facts, they go
with their prejudice as being true, and not the reality of
the situation… and other prejudices they hold is
numerous, their hatred of education, they hate democracy,
they hate science, the inferiority of anyone not white,
critical race theories (which simply states that prejudice was
built into the American system of government… and it was,
or have you ever heard of black people being counted as
3/5 a person in the constitution or the fact that slavery existed
in America until 1865)

epistemology, knowledge wise, the right/conservatives are
incredible uniformed…or to be accurate, they constantly
hold that their private prejudices and bigotries are the
reality of any situation… whereas facts or true
knowledge is called ''fake news"

and therein lies part of my problem with the right/conservatives…

Kropotkin

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The problem is that there is a pre-defined set of beliefs that “conservatives” and “liberals” seem to be forced into complying with.

Are all conservatives anti-immigration? Are all liberals tolerant of childhood gender mis-appropriation?

It’s like there’s a prefab set of beliefs that each “side” must adhere to.

Are you comfortable with that?

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Kropotkin is wrong.

the research and reports of Dutch mathematician and migration economist Jan van de Beek regarding the financial and fiscal costs of immigration.

The analyses reveal a staggering picture. A few migrant groups contribute substantially to the Dutch treasury, but on average immigration costs the treasury a lot of money in net terms. Asylum migration in particular costs a huge amount of money, but so do family migration and even some forms of study and labour migration.

KROPOTKIN’S problem appears to be personal laziness hiding behind diverting attacks on others. He is massively wrong.

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I think isolationism leads to stagnation, what do you think, @Peter_Kropotkin?

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Every time I hear liberals speak like this it is like they want societies that are completely atheistic, homosexual, feminist, and multiracial.

No matter how you talk to them reasonably telling that is not feasible, reasonable, or possible it doesn’t matter because they’ll call you a bigot no matter what you say. For them all kinds of cultures that are conservative socially or culturally is inherently bad.

Is there any way to communicate or reason with a liberal? I am starting to lose hope that there is one.

:clown_face:

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SaintMonica :Kropotkin is wrong.

the research and reports of Dutch mathematician and migration economist Jan van de Beek regarding the financial and fiscal costs of immigration.

The analyses reveal a staggering picture. A few migrant groups contribute substantially to the Dutch treasury, but on average immigration costs the treasury a lot of money in net terms. Asylum migration in particular costs a huge amount of money, but so do family migration and even some forms of study and labour migration.

KROPOTKIN’S problem appears to be personal laziness hiding behind diverting attacks on others. He is massively wrong.

K: as I am not Dutch, I cannot speak for the Dutch state,
I am American and so I can speak to the American experience…
and in America, immigrants are, tax wise and spending wise,
a massive benefit for America…

Kropotkin

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MrAuthoritarian:
Every time I hear liberals speak like this it is like they want societies that are completely atheistic, homosexual, feminist, and multiracial.

K: AS usual, MR. A is wrong… but here is the really interesting thing,
even if I did, I don’t, but even if I did want that type of society/state,
as MR. A says, "“atheistic, homosexual, feminist and multiracial”
he of course, has no idea why, WHY there is a problem with
that type of state/society? What exactly is the problem with such
a state/society, that is atheistic, homosexual, feminist and multiracial?
He has never thought about what type of state that would actually
work…

and the rest of what he wrote is his usual trolling…

So, what type of state/society should we have?

Kropotkin

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@Peter_Kropotkin

It wouldn’t work because the society you want is completely artificial and anti nature, more specifically anti human nature.

I agree that we need a society or civilization of cooperation, but not to the point of destroying everything of who we are.

:clown_face:

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MrAuthoritarian:
It wouldn’t work because the society you want is completely artificial and anti nature, more specifically anti human nature.

I agree that we need a society or civilization of cooperation, but not to the point of destroying everything of who we are.

K: well, I’ll give you that this is a more coherent answer than you
usually give…

But your statements leaves much to be desired… for example, you state
that the ‘‘society you want is completely artificial and anti-nature’’
now societies are, by their very nature, artificial… but this question of
‘‘anti-nature’’… what exactly does that mean? for example, homosexuality
is quite common in nature, over 1500 animal species practice
homosexuality including, in no particular order sheep, Giraffes,
Bottlenose Dolphins, penguins, and of course, Bonobos…
how would homosexuality be artificial when that many animal
species practice it? and as far as the other traits, feminism and
atheism, how are they anti-nature when nature itself doesn’t
have those traits, only humans can be atheist or feminine?
and being multiracial, again that is an exclusively human trait…
my cat would have no idea what multiracial looks like, a cat is a cat,
no matter what color, size, shape or form it took… my cat is more
inclusive than the vast majority of people because it can only
see cat, not black cats or liberal cats or multiracial cats, or
atheistic cats… my cat can only see cat… nothing else…
or my cat can also see danger in other animals but that has
nothing to do with your strictly human traits of atheism or
feminism or multiracial…

the other statement you made is ‘‘we need a society or
civilization of cooperation, but not to the point of
destroying everything we are’’

and that is the 64,000-dollar question, what are we?
What does it mean to be human? much of our current failure
lies in our failure to understand what it means to be human?

so, what does it mean?

Kropotkin

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@Peter_Kropotkin

A society completely or dominantly homosexual would internally collapse. Heterosexuality is the majority population norm.

Explain why a majority of populations are religious or spiritual not atheist.

Explain why a majority of matriarchal societies throughout history end up collapsing or conquered.

For societies to thrive there has to be unified commonality, multicultural multiracial societies are extremely difficult to maintain overtime. They’re not impossible to maintain but there’s certainly more internal conflicts compared to a singular ethno nationalist state. If multicultural multiracial societies are to thrive they have to be based on mutualism not enforced integration.

:clown_face:

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MrAuthoritarian:
A society completely or dominantly homosexual would internally collapse. Heterosexuality is the majority population norm.

K: both thoughts here are merely assumptions… for example, it was
believed that a society/state that allowed Marijuana would collapse,
and here we are with 24 states, half, allowing recreational Marijuana,
with medical marijuana programs in over 40 states… and yet, 15 years
ago, it was completely banned in every state… the norm changes, what is
ethically wrong yesterday, is allowed in well over half the states…
(which from a personal standpoint is great because my gummies
are the only thing that allows me to sleep)

MR A: Explain why a majority of populations are religious or spiritual not atheist.

K: That is a rather vague statement… for example, in the world,
roughly 7% of the entire world, from 500 to 750 million people are
atheists/agnostics… and that number has risen substantially over
the years and in the US, the number of atheists has risen to 4 to 5%
of the American population… and around 28% of the U.S population
identifies as ‘‘none’’ in terms of religious identity… and I’ll be willing to
bet that both numbers are on the low side… the number of
people world wide that identifies as Atheists has risen.. and that
says something important about where we are heading as
human beings…

MR A: Explain why a majority of matriarchal societies throughout history end up collapsing or conquered.

K: Anthropologists have noted that there are no strictly matriarchal societies
in the world, where women held all political power and systematically
dominated men… thus your statement is wrong because there hasn’t
been a matriarchal society, to collapsed or been conquered…

MR A: For societies to thrive there has to be unified commonality, multicultural multiracial societies are extremely difficult to maintain overtime. They’re not impossible to maintain but there’s certainly more internal conflicts compared to a singular ethno nationalist state. If multicultural multiracial societies are to thrive they have to be based on mutualism not enforced integration.

K: I never said that a multiculturally society is easy to maintain, but it
is necessary… or let us try this… name a ‘‘singlular ethno nationalist state’’
that has lasted more than a, say 100 years… and keep in mind, that
there have been many, many multiculturally societies in history…
The Roman Empire was one such state… and the fall of Rome
has nothing to do with such multiculturism… The American experiment
has also based on such multiculturism…

but let us try the opposite… let us look at societies/states that tried
what you suggested, be ‘‘singular, ethno, nationalistic state’’
that was the entire Nazi experiment, try to remake Germany into
an Aryan state/society… how did that work out for them?

let us try another example, the ‘‘Alhambra decree’’ of Spain…
in 1492 Spain expelled the Jews from Spain in order to maintain
a ‘‘singular’’ state…and historians have dated the gradual decline
of Spain from that single event… Spain was a superpower at that time,
and over the years, it gradually turned into a minor, at best, power…
coincidence, I don’t think that the deportation of the Jews and Spain
gradually fall from power is a coincidence…and many historians have
said so… feel free to name a superpower that tried what you suggest
and go from being multicultural to being a singular state and
succeeded… I’ll wait…

Kropotkin

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