Lack of lack of meaning?

[Diekon]

A lot of people, myself not entirely excluded, seem to struggle with a lack of meaning, purpose in their lives. A lot of reasons are given for this, generally it more or less comes down to this. People are inherently looking for meaning in their lives, but with the advent of science and demystification of the modern world, it becomes nigh impossible to see past the inherently meaningless world, and fool ourselves life has a greater meaning. We can’t turn to religion, myth or any overarching narrative, so we are condemned to the life of an ape basicly. But this can’t be acceptable, so we turn again to metaphysics, religion, fantasy, movies… anything that can give us meaning. Rince, repeat. There seems to be no real solution to this problem, other than finding acceptable form of self-deception, in the form of a personal narrative for example.

The specific point i want to adres here, is the notion that man is inherently looking for a greater meaning or purpose in life. Is this a given? Isn’t the problem rather that we live in a culture or are raised with the idea that we and life is special, and there need to be a meaning or a purpose?

[Three_Times_Great]

@Diekon

A lot of people, myself not entirely excluded, seem to struggle with a lack of meaning, purpose in their lives. A lot of reasons are given for this, generally it more or less comes down to this. People are inherently looking for meaning in their lives, but with the advent of science and demystification of the modern world, it becomes nigh impossible to see past the inherently meaningless world, and fool ourselves life has a greater meaning. We can’t turn to religion, myth or any overarching narrative, so we are condemned to the life of an ape basicly. But this can’t be acceptable, so we turn again to metaphysics, religion, fantasy, movies… anything that can give us meaning. Rince, repeat. There seems to be no real solution to this problem, other than finding acceptable form of self-deception, in the form of a personal narrative for example.

The specific point i want to adres here, is the notion that man is inherently looking for a greater meaning or purpose in life. Is this a given? Isn’t the problem rather that we live in a culture or are raised with the idea that we and life is special, and there need to be a meaning or a purpose?

sure, one way to avoid this existential anxiety is to tell yourself that there is no meaning possible, that even the question itself is pointless and merely an arbitrary social artifact… maybe it is, how would i know? im just saying that, typically, this understanding cant really be considered from an objective point of view, outside of its intended (or inevitable side-effect) consequence of providing emotional and mental reassurance and peace of mind to the contemplater himself, momentary relief from the anxiety of the question of meaning.

personally, i think that life must be meaningful, at least TO ITSELF… to itself, from its own point of view, if life were not inherently meaningful in this subjective sense, how would life even exist? since, as conscious beings, we are probably the first animals on earth to have to DEFINE OURSELVES, we will be the first to struggle with this question. no longer will distractions (as you aptly put it) or mechanistic instinctive and predertermined behavior/emotions be sufficient.

once we see the question, it seems we MUST answer it… indeed, failure to answer the question itself might result in our inability even to remain alive, if you are right that we only persist at present in the interrim or amorphous undefined middle-ground between conscious recognition of meaninglessness and imaginary or artificially-created meaning…

[Kennethamy]

@Diekon

A lot of people, myself not entirely excluded, seem to struggle with a lack of meaning, purpose in their lives. A lot of reasons are given for this, generally it more or less comes down to this. People are inherently looking for meaning in their lives, but with the advent of science and demystification of the modern world, it becomes nigh impossible to see past the inherently meaningless world, and fool ourselves life has a greater meaning. We can’t turn to religion, myth or any overarching narrative, so we are condemned to the life of an ape basicly. But this can’t be acceptable, so we turn again to metaphysics, religion, fantasy, movies… anything that can give us meaning. Rince, repeat. There seems to be no real solution to this problem, other than finding acceptable form of self-deception, in the form of a personal narrative for example.

The specific point i want to adres here, is the notion that man is inherently looking for a greater meaning or purpose in life. Is this a given? Isn’t the problem rather that we live in a culture or are raised with the idea that we and life is special, and there need to be a meaning or a purpose?

The idea that there was some one objective universal purpose in life (usually something theological, but not necessarily) seems to have largely disappeared. What there is left is that there can be a number of subjective individual purposes in life, which individuals provide for themselves, mostly by just living their lives, and trying to make sure that their own life is given purpose by themselves.

[Mad_Man_P]

I’m not sure I believe that man inherently desires a purpose for all life… merely their own life. I think most people if given a position where others depend on them tend to find sufficient meaning in such responsibility… without needing to know that the lives of those whom (s)he is responsible for have some meaning too… I think it relates to us being social animals, and as such tend to mesure our own worth through our contributions and/or importance to our “tribe”. But as societies grow our personal roles and importance seems to fade away in the crowd to the point where we lose sight of it entirely. And that could very well lead to seeking out a fantasy in order to feel we too are somehow important…

That is not to say we don’t all wonder about the meaning of life, and if there is any meaning at all… but I don’t think that such abstract notions naturally provoke any emotions, neither good nor bad… HOWEVER, if there were a cosmic purpose or plan and we happen to be in need of feelings of importance, such a notion might help in that it places us in a position of responsibility in seeing this plan or purpose fulfilled through our actions… say by spreading the word of God… or doing charity work in his name, ect…

[Tengo_Nada]

I have noticed recently that I have been living in a cycle. It generally consists of coming face-to-face with pessimism, of believing everything is pointless and then to steadily rebuilding an illusion around myself, a comfort blanket so to speak in which to occupy myself with, just as you’d occupy a savage dog with meat. In my moments of pessimism I tend to discard/destroy all of that which has been accumulated since the last face-off and to begin afresh. In the past this pessimism would overwhelm me, and I’d wish to do nothing else but decompose but recently it has changed and with each return it feels more and more invigorating, an almost burning sensation. Maybe my pessimism is becoming an optimism??

One peculiarity I’ve noticed is that whenever I’m in the process of rebuilding, my interests are constant e.g. philosophy & art etc. So although I do agree theses things can be a distraction, and that is probably what the reason is for the continuation of the cycle, being constantly distracted from yourself, but it’s not until one finds their true self and expresses it thus that life will cease being meaningless. I hope.

[Diekon]

@Three Times Great

personally, i think that life must be meaningful, at least TO ITSELF… to itself, from its own point of view, if life were not inherently meaningful in this subjective sense, how would life even exist? since, as conscious beings, we are probably the first animals on earth to have to DEFINE OURSELVES, we will be the first to struggle with this question. no longer will distractions (as you aptly put it) or mechanistic instinctive and predertermined behavior/emotions be sufficient.

@Kennethamy

The idea that there was some one objective universal purpose in life (usually something theological, but not necessarily) seems to have largely disappeared. What there is left is that there can be a number of subjective individual purposes in life, which individuals provide for themselves, mostly by just living their lives, and trying to make sure that their own life is given purpose by themselves.

I’m not sure individual meaning or purpose is necessary, or even desirable. Part of the problem is we are social animals, and individual meaning doesn’t seem to be really working on any “realness” scale, if that makes sense . We can tell our selves for example, that what we are doing is really meaningful, or that we have a specific purpose, but if this isn’t supported by any social group and only living in my mind, it just isn’t all that.

I used to think along the same lines of individual meaning. But then I came across a videoseries on the Piraha, don’t laugh, an indigenous south-american tribe that seem to be living almost entirely in the present, and don’t really make goals other than looking food, shelter and the basics. Besides having a very specific language, they seem to be relying exclusively on their senses, and don’t feel the need to make art, fiction, religion, higher abstractions. Every day is the same. And they seem one of the happiest tribes on earth, in fact they feel superior to westerns who come to visit them, and entirely reject every outside influence. A very interesting folk from a philosophical point of view .

youtube.com/watch?v=bRhA3jk1 … re=related

Now, i’m not saying we should return to the jungle, far from it. It just seems to put into question the necessity of meaning, even individual meaning. Maybe it’s more of an unneeded result of our goal-oriented culture, and even contraproductive to think this way.

[Diekon]

Yes, Mad man P, my thoughts exactly.

[Nah]

One day when I was a kid, I understood that no answer would give total satisfaction to any of my important question.

First, I was only sure of this “insight” but could not logically grasp and explain the meaning of it.
After a few weeks, I came to understand logically, too.

It was because the nature of the answer I wanted.
What I wanted was the absolute answer.
And any answer wouldn’t satisfy this requirement because all answers obtained by logical thinking would be relative and limited answers.

As long as we want absolute answer, all answers would be incorrect (or the purpose) and thus there is no answer for any question (that expects absolute answer).

Question about “meaning of life” comes with the sort of expectation (or desire) to obtain absolutely firm ground to base one’s life upon, so there would be no satisfying answer. If someone thinks s/he has found an answer, s/he is seeing (fake) absolute in the relative answer.

Also, when we talk/question about meaning, or any other form of evaluation, it’s pretty important to differentiate “relative things” and “(often fake) absolute”, as well as “specific evaluation” and “generic, simplistic, phony evaluation”.

Usually, “meaning of life”, “raison d’etre”, “moral” and so on are generic phony evaluation. It’s illogical and pretty useless other than offering fake peace of mind.
When someone fully understand relative nature of logic and evaluation, s/he wouldn’t be interested in these phony pseudo evaluation, any more, simply because it’s too silly.

But we don’t learn about these in school. Not many adults are very aware of it, to begin with. Humans are retarded in this regard.

Now, if the lack of answer or meaning or certainty hurts oneself in any way, it’s a matter of learning how to face and suffer honestly and simply.
It’s not complicated. We can get used to a lot of things including discomfort, anxiety, and pain.

Unfortunately, I think humans (and probably all creatures) come with the basic program to try to escape from negative sensation/feeling/evaluation.
So, we wouldn’t get used to them and we would accumulate negatively perceived energy and end up being stiff in several ways.

[Diekon]

Yes, Nah. I agree, it can never be an absolute answer. I’m talking about the psychological need to have a purpose. It’s often taken as a given that man needs one, and that this is a more desirable way to live. I’m questioning this notion.

I’m thinking that this is more of a result of the way we are raised and our culture, than anything that is inherently present in our psychological makup. That’s part of the problem, we can’t just hide under a rock. But then again, there are probably enough people who don’t believe in a purpose.

[Nah]

I certainly see cultural force behind some of these.
But I also see more primordial factor behind cultural force.

I think it’s natural for human (and for any creature) to fear many things, and it does push human mind to seek false sense of security in mentally fabricated “solid and dependable” world (or world view).

We can see it as the fear of freedom.
When we can do whatever we want, some us get lost in the midst of entire possibility/potential.
It’s as if there is no ground to support them and they might even feel they are falling into the void.
But free fall is another way of expressing (and feeling) the freedom from gravity and friction against the ground.

Basically, we are totally free.
But some (or rather many) people love to chain themselves and to complicate the way they suffer.
It’s their choice (if we assume that they have enough awareness to allow them to choose something, consciously, which I tend to doubt a bit), though.

[Jakob]

@Diekon

A lot of people, myself not entirely excluded, seem to struggle with a lack of meaning, purpose in their lives. A lot of reasons are given for this, generally it more or less comes down to this. People are inherently looking for meaning in their lives, but with the advent of science and demystification of the modern world, it becomes nigh impossible to see past the inherently meaningless world, and fool ourselves life has a greater meaning. We can’t turn to religion, myth or any overarching narrative, so we are condemned to the life of an ape basicly. But this can’t be acceptable, so we turn again to metaphysics, religion, fantasy, movies… anything that can give us meaning. Rince, repeat. There seems to be no real solution to this problem, other than finding acceptable form of self-deception, in the form of a personal narrative for example.

The specific point i want to adres here, is the notion that man is inherently looking for a greater meaning or purpose in life. Is this a given? Isn’t the problem rather that we live in a culture or are raised with the idea that we and life is special, and there need to be a meaning or a purpose?

The problem is with feeling that “Life” has to be meaningful.
People find meaning in certain things.
The hunt, the fire, the keeping safe from harm at night.

But these can be extended. It is hard, true - meaning comes with wanting to survive, finding useful things and subsequently making them ‘special’.
The survival of the species is secured, so yes, meaning has lost it’s general vitality. To attain a sense of meaning, a person may have to believe his life is useful, ‘special’ in itself.

Nice circular argument. I guess meaning just is what Michael Madsen refers to as ‘cool’ - it’s not really an actable property.

On a pessimistic note - Nietzsche predicted that nihilism would be a biological condition in our time. But don’t jump out the window to create meaning. Not all meaning is useful. Endure the nihilism!

[Impenitent]

@Jakob

…On a pessimistic note - Nietzsche predicted that nihilism would be a biological condition in our time. But don’t jump out the window to create meaning. Not all meaning is useful. Endure the nihilism!

that misses nietzsche’s optimistic point…

do not endure the nihilism…

be a diamond.

shine on…

-Imp

[Diekon]

@Tengo Nada

I have noticed recently that I have been living in a cycle. It generally consists of coming face-to-face with pessimism, of believing everything is pointless and then to steadily rebuilding an illusion around myself, a comfort blanket so to speak in which to occupy myself with, just as you’d occupy a savage dog with meat. In my moments of pessimism I tend to discard/destroy all of that which has been accumulated since the last face-off and to begin afresh. In the past this pessimism would overwhelm me, and I’d wish to do nothing else but decompose but recently it has changed and with each return it feels more and more invigorating, an almost burning sensation. Maybe my pessimism is becoming an optimism??

One peculiarity I’ve noticed is that whenever I’m in the process of rebuilding, my interests are constant e.g. philosophy & art etc. So although I do agree theses things can be a distraction, and that is probably what the reason is for the continuation of the cycle, being constantly distracted from yourself, but it’s not until one finds their true self and expresses it thus that life will cease being meaningless. I hope.

I hope so. What you’re saying here seems interesting, exalirating, but ultimately dangerous. There’s that hope, the promise that something very good can come out of it, but maybe it’s just nihilism redux with a vengeance. Maybe there’s something to be said for acceptism and not desperatly trying to inject life with more meaning. And maybe that where some sort of true self can be found.

[Diekon]

@Jakob

On a pessimistic note - Nietzsche predicted that nihilism would be a biological condition in our time. But don’t jump out the window to create meaning. Not all meaning is useful. Endure the nihilism!

I agree, we’ve got the survival angle covered, great, but what now? Nietzsche was a genius for seeing this problem alone, it’s remarkable how much he got it right. But maybe his solution wasn’t that great, creating übermen and eternal returns really doesn’t work that well when every one else is watching reruns of Friends.

[amor_fati]

@Diekon

But maybe his solution wasn’t that great, creating übermen and eternal returns really doesn’t work that well when every one else is watching reruns of Friends.

what difference does it make what other people are doing?

the overman and eternal recurrence have nothing to do with other people

they are in spite of other people, in fact

but most of all in spite of oneself

[helptheherd]

But then again, there are probably enough people who don’t believe in a purpose.

everyone believes until they kill themselves or die (thats the only option). you can not exist without believing- existing is believing

[Wobbly]

The fact that the world isn’t imbued with meaning by some sort of god or whatever doesn’t mean that it is inherently meaningless. It means that the conception of “inherent meaning” is nonsense, and any meaning is human meaning.

The solution is that if you are going to do away with delusions of inherent meaning you also have to do away with the assumptions that underlie it. Mainly, that meaning is something that comes from without. It’s quite ridiculous to assume that meaning has to be bestowed, and then claim that there is nothing there to bestow it, and then claim there is no meaning. You define meaning out of existence and don’t even realize it.

Once you realize this mistake of reasoning, it becomes quite easy to see meaning because it isn’t something that you “find”, but something that you do, give, or create. If you ask me, this human meaning is far more important and powerful than any gradiose bestowed meaning can be.

[Diekon]

@amor fati

@Diekon

But maybe his solution wasn’t that great, creating übermen and eternal returns really doesn’t work that well when every one else is watching reruns of Friends.

what difference does it make what other people are doing?

It’s not that simple, we are social creatures, language is shared, idea’s are shared…

We don’t live under a rock and we don’t have a solid metal plate tied arround our brain, we can’t help to let something pas the filter.

And even if we could and we don’t care for the people themselves, the eyes of other people are an extention of our eyes, direct experience being the most important knowledge of our day to day life. So we have to interact with them and have some sort of common understanding.

Living in our own little universe doesn’t help with that. And I just can’t see it as anything other than an impoverished universe.

How is it working for you?

[amor_fati]

did you happen to read my next three sentences? specifically the last one?

i’m not sure you’re picking up what i’m layin’ down here

know what i’m sayin?

[amor_fati]

nietzsche had a point ya’ll

and i think most ya’ll miss it

Ralph Waldo Emerson had a similar notion - he called it the Oversoul

Kierkegaard called it the Knight of Faith, but he means essentially the same thing

it’s something they each saw with profound clarity within themselves

but readers who have no such experience within themselves

they might as well be blind and deaf -