Lancet Fluke

[size=75]As inspired by a Daniel C. Dennett lecture[/size]

There is a parasite called lancet fluke which has the unique procreative strategy of entering an ant’s brain and making it climb a blade of grass so as to increase the chances of it being consumed by herbivores, within which it reproduces.

This creature is especially interesting in that its procreative strategy resembles that of memetic propagation.
We can say that a meme is but an evolutionary leap from the gene and like all creations it turns on the creator to usurp and overcome him.
The proclamation that “God is dead” saves Him from being murdered by His own creations. Having overcome His necessity, the child turns on the parent and surpasses His necessity.
It’s a coming of age story, repeated through the ages.

In a similar manner a meme turns on the gene that produced it, and feeds on it or makes it obsolete, with its superior procreative and adaptive potential.

In this surpassing memetic propagation often replicates vertically rather than horizontally.
In other words a meme often becomes parasitical while being, at the same time genetically unfit, on its own.

An example is the meme which infects Shakers.
Here the meme forces a celibate lifestyle and propagates itself by infecting minds outside its genetic pool.
To put it another way the Shaker ideal, if followed to the letter, is a genetic dead-end, and can only hope to replicate itself by infecting minds outside its power – like a virus.

Here we see a resemblance to homosexuality (A popular topic on this Forum of late, just like all topics focused on sexuality).
Homosexuality is a genetic mutation that is unfit, in that it cannot genetically propagate itself directly but depends on symbiosis to survive.
Here the genetic mutation of homosexuality is reliant on heterosexual procreation to come to be and then survive using parasitical strategies.

In some ways homosexuality can be compared to a virus that infects the heterosexual procreative method, relying on it for its own existence and unable to replicate itself directly.

Comments.

The only logical addendum I would add is that if “homosexuality” is parasitic as a meme, so is “heterosexuality”.

Dunamis

The difference being that heterosexuality is self-replicating, whereas homosexuality is not.

A lancet fluke link
weichtiere.at/Mollusks/Schne … elium.html

You are conflating the meme with the activity, which it is not.

Dunamis

That is why I said “in some ways”.

You can think of homosexuality as a genetic mutation seeking to become a memetic mutation.

Sure. And “heterosexuality,” the meme, can be said to be the same thing.

Dunamis

In what way?
Heterosexuality is self-replicating.

Homosexuality actually does have a fitness marker. It’s just kind of like sickle-cell. Richard Dawkins proposed a viable mechanism whereby homosexuality gets passed on, check it out: simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/FAQs.shtml I’m not sure it’s perfect. I like the non-breeding caretaker model myself . . .
Similarly, if it is pure memetics, are you saying that other species that exhibit homosexuality are subject to memes? If so, what separates their society from ours?

I’m saying that homosexuality, in other species, takes on the role of caretaker or a more feminine role, forcing inferior males into subordinate positions (since a group can only tolerate so many males) and that it is a genetic mutation that relies on heterosexual procreation to persist.

In recent times homosexuality is attempting to become a meme, by becoming vertically replicating, as in accepted and tolerated behavior.

Again you are conflating the meme with a described activity. Homosexuality in the field of memes may very well produce procreative activity, out of guilt, out of same-sex bonding that leads to survival, out of polarization of the meme-field and entrenching its opposite “heterosexuality” which feeds on this polarization for its own stability. There can be a million ways that the meme “homosexuality” produces biological procreative behavior.

Dunamis

I wouldn’t say that it is attempting to become a meme as an accepted behaviour, since that already exists in others species (assuming that other species lack memes, I believe those are the rules you wish to play by). Now, I will say that the hyper-feminization of homosexuals is a meme. Partially started by Oscar Wilde, that famous fruit. I like the Onion article on how a recently out-of-the-closet man went from drinking beer and single-malt scotches to exclusively drinking mai-tais. Sure, it’s a joke paper, but the article illustrates the memetic aspect of homosexuality.

Yes ‘produces” or acts like a caretaker or a subordinated supportive member, but it, on its own, is not self-replicating. It is a genetic dead-end – unfit.

It’s only role then becomes that of supportive inferior.
Homosexuals do not reproduce and even if they could it would not be certain that their offspring would have homosexual leanings.

The thing about memes is that they often result in the destruction of the gene.

We could say that all social creatures have rudimentary cultural structures.

Homosexuality there remains a genetic mutation with no ability to infect the other members due to primitive social, structures and the absence of language or idealogies.

In human social unities homosexuality gains the possibility of becoming a viable alternative, when technology takes over the procreative role and all males are relegated to subordinate, effeminate, supportive roles.

Ya didn’t read my link, did ya? Well, I’ll make it easy for you:
If homosexuality is genetically influenced - in the extreme case, if there is a gene or collection of genes that makes someone homosexual - what advantage is there in it? Surely the ‘aim’ of DNA is to be replicated as much as possible.

S. Keane

Richard Dawkins' reply to this question, and others like it, is dealt with in his letter to the Daily Telegraph: "Could a gay gene really survive?" (16th August, 1993), reproduced below.

Genes that predispose a significant minority of men to homosexuality raise a Darwinian puzzle. If homosexual men rarely father children, homosexual genes should dwindle to the low frequency expected from recurrent random mutation, a frequency below one in a million. Even if Kinsey's estimate of one in ten is high, there can be no doubt that the abundance of homosexual men is too great to have stemmed from recurrent mutation alone.

As long as the (always implausible) social science orthodoxy was maintained that homosexual inclinations were entirely made, not born, there was little problem. The recent demonstration that, not for the first time, the politically correct is factually incorrect, changes all that. Moreover, contrary to two Letters to the Editor of this newspaper, the evidence that the 'gay' gene lies on the X chromosome (which a man receives only from his mother, and cannot pass to his sons) provides no let-out. A man passes his X chromosome to all his daughters and, on average, a quarter of his grandsons. Any gene that reduces a man's daughters is subject to strong negative selection. It should, other things being equal, disappear.

When Darwinians are challenged by some seemingly un-Darwinian fact of human life, they often invoke the distortions of civilization. Why have we a taste for sugar when it rots our teeth? Because civilization blunts the cutting edge of natural selection, and in our ancestral past sugar was too scarce to do anything but good. Darwinians have framed similar theories about homosexuality: forget the ephemera of modern life, how might homosexual genes have fared during all those millennia on the African savannah?

Some of these theories note that genes have different effects in different contexts. Genes that promote homosexuality in, say, bottle-fed individuals might foster some advantageous trait in breast-fed individuals. Before the teated bottle was invented, the gene would not have surfaced as a gene 'for' homosexuality at all. It would have been a gene 'for' something quite different, perhaps resistance to a virus. Obviously I name 'bottle' and 'virus' only for the sake of argument. The general point is that the effects of a gene may depend upon context. As a special case, they may depend upon which other genes are present in the body. Homosexuality may therefore manifest itself in some individuals, as a spinoff from a gene's positive selection because of its desirable effect in other individuals. A particular version of this theory postulates a gene that causes homosexuality in males but a completely different, beneficial, effect in females.
Another theory, the 'sterile worker,' starts from the well-understood observation that worker bees, ants, wasps, termites and naked mole-rats divert their energy and time away from reproduction and towards the welfare of their young collateral relatives. Perhaps Pleistocene children, while their macho fathers were away hunting, were left under the protection of a gay uncle? The uncle's genes, including those promoting homosexuality, would have a good chance of being reproduced by the children whom he protected as surrogate father.

Incidentally the newly discovered 'gay gene', being on the X chromosome, could be shared by a maternal uncle's nephews (and nieces) but not by a paternal uncle's nephews. It is tantalising to recall the anthropological finding that, in those many societies where uncle replaces father as economic and protective guardian of a child, it is universally the mother's brother not the father's brother. Admittedly, this "mother's brother effect" already has an alternative Darwinian explanation.

In any case, the sterile worker theory doesn't explain why the uncles, in addition to refraining from normal masculine activities, should enjoy making love to men. Indeed one might think that, left in camp with the women, there is another obvious way in which they could benefit their genes, over and above caring for their nephews and nieces. This brings me to my own favourite, the 'sneaky male' theory.

In harem-based species, like some seals and deer, a minority of males monopolises the females, leaving a surplus of bachelors. Those supernumerary males that have no hope of displacing a harem-master sometimes specialise in an alternative, 'best of a bad job,' strategy: sneaking quick copulations with females while his back is turned. Genes promoting sneaking skills are passed on, in parallel with genes promoting the dominant male skill of bashing up other males.

You can tell harem species by their sexual dimorphism - males larger than females. Humans are less dimorphic than elephant seals (a dominant bull typically outweighs 14 females) but dimorphic enough to suggest at least some legacy of harem-based history. Clandestine matings with females may have provided the only route for surplus bachelors to pass on their genes. Their skills may have included lulling harem masters into a false sense of security, and now here is the point. A genuine preference for other males might well carry more conviction than a simulated indifference to females. By analogy, women frequently remark that they feel 'secure' in the company of homosexual men, and monarchs have staffed their harems with eunuchs. Incidentally, experts doubt the widely-promulgated story that the Ottoman Sultan Ibrahim was so jealous of a rumoured liaison between a eunuch and an unidentified odalisque that he drowned his entire 280-strong harem in the Bosporus. In any case homosexual men are not eunuchs and they can fertilise women. According to the sneaky male theory, their homosexual orientation gained them privileged access to women and a minority stream of homosexual genes prospered.

Explanations buried in Pleistocene history are always less convincing where reproduction, rather than survival, is at stake. Early death may have been largely abolished nowadays, but genes still vary in their ability to get themselves reproduced. If a homosexuality gene lowers its own probability of being reproduced today, and yet still abounds in the population, that is a problem for commonsense as much as for Darwin's theory of evolution. And, intriguing as several of these theories may be, I have to conclude that it remains a problem.

So, you would agree that homosexuality is reliant on social dynamics?

A Shaker is also fertile but his memetic infection makes his genetic potential moot.
So, the propagation of the meme relies on vertical replication.

The “sneaky male” strategy presuposses that the male will want to have sex with a female.

Of course. Any sexuality is. I’d wager you don’t see homosexuality exhibited in non-social organisms.
I’m just saying that a homosexual is a beast of a different colour than a Shaker. I don’t see another species engaging in obligate abstinence. Homosexuality is primarily genetic, but heavily influenced by memetics; whereas Shakerism is almost a pure meme (there are some genetic advantages to celibacy in the short term: older, more established mates can care better for young. STDs are less of a problem in monogamous relationships, of which short-term celibacy is a signifier).
Though, how homosexuality manifests itself ( the affectations), that is raw memetics. The Greek army of lovers was hardly a bunch of sissies. Heck, in Greek myths homos are the real men’s men. Think about in the Argonauts (? Pretty sure that’s it) when Hercules basically says, “What are you sissies doing, spending all day having sex with women? Wussies” And then he leaves with his boy-toy off to adventure.

I think we agree more than we disagree, but the fine print is important.

The sneaky-male is where we get the sickle-cell allusion. It is advantageous to be haploid, but by the very nature of it, some of the undesirable diploid will result.

Satyr,

I guess I need a better connection between the fluke parasite and what is homosexuality. I can understand the additive concept behind the fluke, but my understanding of what is known about homosexuality involves missing or misplaced bits of DNA as the root cause. As a form of mutation, homosexuality may appear because of an inherent weak link in DNA structure, but I see nothing to suggest that the root cause is in any way a parasitic issue and the fact that homosexuality cannot reproduce itself makes it only appear parasitic. Am I missing the connection here?

JT

The concept of the “meme” is an abstraction and cannot formally be defined, or identified, as a resolute entity. The concept is treated as, and likened to, the activity of the “gene,” or other biological entities which can be identified as having propagational tendencies- replication, reproduction, etc.

As a language construct it is a gross estimation of what might be considered an “ideal.” For instance, “passing a meme” is analogous to “spreading rumors” or linguistic traditions which recur throughout generations and evolve by indoctrination, culture, and speech.

I do not believe that such an entity as a “meme” actually exists, because language constructs, its medium, is not capable of achieving stasis, something which I consider to be the observable “balancing act” of the biological entities activity. The difference noted here is that while the meme can be concieved as a sort of momentum, which is to say, as always gaining and maintaining its course (the propagation of the language activity), it cannot be identified explicitly as an identical copy of its previous form- that which existed before and has now made a replication of itself. On the other hand, the gene can be indentified as a stable entity that remains essentially uniform but with the capacity to be changed physically, affecting its anatomy in slight degrees. Here, while both can be said to have ‘activity,’ the meme is an ambiguous estimation of an unstable form- the ‘ideology’ in which it is manifested, and it follows that there can be no one original type from which all other proceed as a propagation-of.

In terms of the comparison made between the gene and the meme, the gene can be considered an empirical form, while the meme is a metaphorical form.

To summerize I am saying that there is a basic and fundamental differance between the activity of the two, but they can be said to have the same function- replication, reproduction and propagation.

What is important is the distinguishing between what is called ‘activity following form’- which is the process of changing slightly while maintaining a general stability, and ‘activity following improvisation,’ which translates to ‘no original parent type’ to be copied, or in this case, no original ideology.

Just some thoughts.

Regarding homosexuality, I feel comfortable with your ideas Satyr, and in general I have no major objections. I do think that it is a bit of a leap to suggest that homosexuality is a kind of ‘conspiracy of genetics’ acting as a parasite. I believe that homosexuality has hormonal origins as well as somatic origins, or ‘psychological’ origins, which I think are generated in culture, but not necessarily as a form of ‘memetic momentum,’ as I described it above, lacking any real course to be plotted or observed like that of biological entities.

What is a “strong link” in DNA structure?

Dunamis

tentative

The Lancet fluke parasite was used to describe a genetic strategy that imitates memetic propagation.
I see homosexuality as a genetic mutation which attempts to become memetic so as to overcome its genetic limitations.

But I believe we must draw a distinction here between homosexual activity and homosexual attraction – I believe this might be what Dunamis alludes to in his responses. In the first case homosexuality can be seen as a phenomenon caused by environmental pressures, the second can be seen as a genetic mutation with no choice in the matter, which is attempting to reproduce mimetically, as a means of overcoming its genetic dead-end .

The lecture, itself, mentions Shakers as a genetically unfit meme that replicates vertically and depends on genetic propagation to replicate itself. Like a virus.

The current homosexual surge in social acceptability reminded me of it and forced me to draw connections.

Xunzian

Praying mantises are not social and they procreate heterosexually.
I meant social as in creatures that coexist with members of their own kind so as to facilitate heterosexual procreation. In such unities it is evident that most will not procreate but will fall into supportive asexual roles.

Here sexual displays may include homosexual acts.

But homosexuality as a phenomenon of exclusive preference seems to be limited to man.
I can only see this as a result of memetic effect, where the dominate position is taken over by institutional power forcing all into subordinate roles or as a genetic mutation that finds fertile ground, in modern tolerant, Democratic environments to become mimetically viable.

As a genetic mutation it would seem that its only hope for propagation rests in becoming an alternative, acceptable life-style, no different than heterosexuality.
That is that its continuance relies in supporting ideologies that make sexuality a matter of indifference or where sexuality ceases being a procreative tool and becomes a social lubricant.

détrop
Language is a memetic tool.
One might say that language is a meme itself, that relies on becoming helpful in spreading other memes to propagate itself.