Language

I’m reading this hate-filled immigration thread and thinking about the place that I grew up and spent most of my life in, a small manufacturing city in Massachusetts.

I remember going to (my band played at) a company party for the largest manufacturing concern in the city, a fabric company - one of the largest manufacturinjg concerns in the state. I think it was something like 10,000 employees - it was big. Practically all I heard spoken was portuguese.

The last place I lived, the last apartment - my two closest neighbors - the older generation in these households, spoke no english - only portuguese. Clean, quiet, nice neighbors. I have known many, many people who do not speak english, who live in my hometown. I went to a tailor for several years who spoke no english. We used a sort of pantomime to communicate. He did good work on the expensive suits I used to wear to work.

My father’s neighbor across the street, who shovels dad’s sidewalk in the winter, and generally looks out for my elderly father, speaks no english. Another neighbor, years ago, who dug a long trench for my father, and who would accept no payment, spoke no english.

Certain markets, neighborhood places, little groceries - no english - good favas (beans) - this may have changed - some of this is rather current information, some is not.

I don’t remember much talk about this. The school department was always rather proud of ESL, or Bi-lingual ed - whatever was in style - they did their job, whatever it was. I know a lot about the school department in my town, know a lot of teachers, taught in the system for a while.

I’m sure there are those who griped about those who spoke, who speak no english. I was never one of those.

One of the ten largest manufacturing concerns - and many other smaller ones - fabrics, textiles, flocking, dye houses - textiles - immigrants - I have been in many of those mills - sold insurance with an interpreter.

Commerce somehow continued. Continues. Good neighbors. Good friends.

In Florida - the restaurant I work in - kitchen crew - some with no english. No one bats an eye. No one cares. No one complains. Not the boss, not the waitstaff, not the cooks who speak english. No one cares. Business gets done. These are good employees, good neighbors, good friends. It’s a good restaurant, and a profitable one.

Is this so difficult? We are so challenged, so threatened by this?

Grow up, america. Or grow younger and more childlike. Everyone’s so serious about this language thing, this english language thing. As if it is a real problem. Have some fun and enjoy the tapestry, the panoply, the richness. The music of these languages.

The music of a commercial kitchen when it’s humming. The rhythym. The song - the songs. It’s like opera.

This is not one of america’s real problems.

This is just hatred.

Have a malasada (a portuguese doughnut).

Some sweetbread. Some home-made wine.

Relax.

I thank my lucky stars to have grown up where I did. When I go back, I see Mr. Furtado sometimes, across the street from my dad’s. I wave. He waves back. We smile. That is enough. He knows I am grateful.

It is enough.

QFT (Quoted For Truth) for those who don’t know. It would be nice for better communication at certain times but it is not a true necessity. People are still people. =D>

I grew up near the Mexican border. Went to school with kids that barely knew english. Kids are remarkable, at a young innocent age. Words were not needed in alot of cases for us to communicate. A ball game, tag, swing sets etc. breach that communication barrier. I love living in the USA because so many cultures collide and melt, I love walking into a market and hearing multiple languages. I also have enjoyed breaching the barriers and learning how to communicate without words to help folks find things. A smile is a warm and cozy payment. This has been a privledge of mine to uphold the statue of liberty’s words. To uphold and honor those that fought and died for our Constitution and Bill of Rights. I don’t give a crap for wastrel political leaders and their beliefs. I am a USA citizen and my language is open arms and assistance to those in need.

Should folks be allowed here illegally, no, should a child born within our borders be an automatic citizen, yes, it is a wonderful birthday gift to that human. Should our Gov’t have its legal documents in multiple languages. Only if the people vote yes, no minority should decide that, it is too controversial so, leave it to the people.

This thread is a disgraceful attempt by a US citizen to excuse the awful butchering job that America has done on the English language. I don’t buy it for a second.

Satori - thanks for the dose of CS (common sense).

Kris - beautifully stated, as usual.

saitd - You nabbed me - I’m one of those awful americans that thinks English might just nudge past Shakespeare on occasion.

We have a large hispanic presence in my neck of the woods and because of my occupation, I also have a large hispanic customer base. I’ve never had problems working with those that cannot speak English. In fact, playing charades to get business accomplished is fun sometimes. Still, there are certain activities that require the best of language ability. If the doctor asks, where does it hurt? There needs to be as good of language exchange as possible. Got legal problems? Better know the language. Need a governmental permit? Need bonding? Really a good idea to know the language.

I’m not sure that the answer is demanding an english-only society, but I resent watching businesses being told that they MUST provide bi-lingual services, paperwork, signs, etc.

I too enjoy watching the immigrants story unfold before me. It is the story of ALL of us (native Americans excepted). That said, Have you noticed that the immigrating asian peoples have never demanded signs and paperwork in mandarin chinese? Have you noticed that their children occupy the top slots in almost any graduate school you can name?

If you immigrated to Mexico or Portugal, or any other non-english country, would you refuse to learn the language and demand english everything?

People are people, but language in a complex society is a critical part OF that society…

tentative - very cleverly done. Start with acceptance of non-english speakers and then, ever so slowly - change the issue. This is politics, this is rhetoric, this is propaganda - a very good example. You must be a big Bill O’Reilly fan. he makes his living doing just this.

faust,

I didn’t change the issue, I simply pointed out that there is a bit more to it than sentimentality of how I grew up. Is it politics, rhetoric? Fucking A. Propaganda? Depends on intent, doesn’t it?

Oh, I hate O’Reilly.

So tell my in some sort of non-uni-dimensional way, what’s the big non-political, non-rhetorical answer? :smiley:

Answer to what?

Oh, your thread was a rant. I thought it was asking for discourse. Sorry. My mistake.

Well, you see, my fellow americans, it’s not just about language - it’s about your government forcing you to provide translation services to these illegal immigrants. Forcing mom and pop stores out of business. Ruining lives. The lives of real americans. You know, the kind whose grandparents immigrated to the US - at an earlier time.

And, except for the Chinese, these illegal aliens are all stupid!

The chinese are good immigrants. The mexicans are bad, because most of them don’t go to Harvard. Look it up.

But these mexicans come here and ask for stuff. You know what that means - welfare.

And what about these other countries. Ones that we are clearly superior to? They won’t let the milliions of americans who flee poverty and oppression to live in these countries have paperwork in our language.

Because they are inferior - which is why we shouldn’t let any of their people in.

It’s really quite simple.

Well, other than the remarks about illegal immigrants being stupid, distinctions of good and bad immigrants, the idea that we are superior to anyone, you’ve managed to ask some of the questions. Keep going…

tent - these are the implications of your very words. Your language is suggestive - mine is explicit. That is the only difference.

Shouldn’t we be able to know what some one is saying with out the words being direct and point blank, And should we not infer what is meant especially when you know a person. When something comes out of a person in written or oral form and it is someone you know and these words may not make sense as written or may sound negative but, in a odd way. Should we not give the person the benefit of doubt and infer or search for the truest meaning of what was said rather then interpret the words in a way that inflicts a negative reply?

Faust you declare that Tent. was saying something he did not intend, true his words could be interpreted in such a way by someone who does not know him and how he stands. You know Tent. As do I, Why did you interpret what he said in such a way? Is not the person’s beliefs, philosophy and personality to be taken into account when they write or speak? Or do we just take words as put forth and attach only dictionary meaning? Is that not just a part of language.

I always thought language to be more then just definitions. Words spoken and written take on the life of the author and that should be considered when communicating with others. It is hard to do so when you are unfamiliar with the person, so we must use definitions only but, when you know the person then language becomes so much more, don’t you think?

Well, Kris, either I can infer or I cannot. My point was precisiely about what can be inferred from his remarks, what can be interpreted from them. Language is more than defintions. Again - my point entirely.

That post is an example of what a Bill O’Reilly would do with tent’s statements. It’s the Bill O’Reilly’s that have framed the public debate. I think that is unfortunate.

But I also wish to point out certain flaws in tent’s thinking. We are constantly being told about what happens in other countries. Would I be able to speak only english in Portugal? Portugal is a third-rate economy. Outside Lisbon, life there is practically medieval. Of what relevance is this question? It injects an unecessary morality into the equation.

Immigration is an economic issue. It is rarely treated as such. The rampant emotionalism that this issue is regularly met with, the moralism and the myopia, is no different than that which has met every single previous immigrant group, including my grandparents.

America loves immigrants from the past, but never from the present.

The chinese go to school, and they speak english. This is a low stanndard for assimilation. In other important ways, they asimilate less than mexicans - as a generalisation. I do not object to this, myself.

But the guiding value in this debate seems to be “be as much like me as you can”.

I think that is both too much, and not enough to ask. Immigration is an economic issue - or should be. So is language.

faust,

A cardinal sin. Common, but wrong every time. Suggestive? From who’s point of view? Yours. Don’t read into my words just yet. You don’t know me well enough to do that, and I’ll call you on it every time.

We all get caught up in our knowing.

Does America have an official language?

Call me all you want, tent. You said what you said. As I said, this is the kind of rhetoric that drives this debate. That is what is wrong. And I do not respond to people, but to posts.

There is no such thing as a sin.

A town in Mass where all the people speak Porteguese? Sounds like a Steven King novel. I wonder if you didn’t make the whole story up?

I find it extraordinarily difficult to have kitchen help that can’t speak the language. In your restaurant the menu must be very simple or the staff must possess ESP. :wink:

I’m amused, though, that when we expect natives of the countries we visit to accomodate our ignorance of their language we’re Ugly Americans. Now those who wish to avail themselves of our countries opportunities and rosources can’t even be troubled to gain basic proficiency in ours. The double standard is delicious! :slight_smile:

I think I’ll pick a nation at random off the map, move there, then watch their delight as they all drop everything and learn my language. Strictly for my benefit.

The city of Fall River, Massachusetts is the one I speak of. The large company is Quaker Fabrics. Nearby New Bedford, is a similar situation. I didn’t make any of it up.

I try not to get insulted by others - sometimes I fail.