Language

Is there any reason to believe that one language might correspond more completely to reality than another? I suppose what I am asking is first, can any language truly describe the world outside of us as it is (as opposed to how we want it to be) and second, if so what would that language be like?

If one considers mathematics to be a form of language could it not relate the world to us with more clarity and certainty than, say, english or swahili?

Ultimately, isn’t language merely a reflection of how we perceive the world, and it is not necessarily the case that any language allows a perceiver the ‘understand’ what it is he or she perceives?

At Imp’s behest I must add some declaritive sentences to this post or have it moved. So much for Socrates and his questions.

So, in an attempt to answer my own questions lest this post get moved, let me add the following.

Language presupposes that things have an essential character which we, as human beings, can not only perceive but translate via certain thoughts. Thoughts correspond to perception via a habit, or consistency of usage. This is not to say that what we think, and the words we use to think with necessarily form the the world around us, but it is often assumed that what we might call physical matter corresponds to our thoughts so as to offer a Definitive understanding of that which we perceive.

In other words, we think that we can have knowledge because we think language contains a composite of inherent truth. Not only can we have knowledge of the truth but we believe we can communicate this truth through language.

If you are familiar with Hume you may see what I am claiming here. When we have any term that we assume relates to an object in the world around us, and we assign what we think is a definitive meaning to that object as it appears to us, all we can ultimately report is how that object is sensed by us linguistically, in terms of words we agree on beforehand as representing certain ideas.

We associate words with ideas just as we associate ideas with a corresponding impression of those things we perceive. But there is no reason to think we can perceive the essential character or essence of a thing (if there even exists an unchanging essence) so there is no reason to believe that what we communicate, via language, shares anything in common with the world except as any given language dictates it should.

In English there is the idea of the denotative and the connotative. The denotative would be our attempt at defining the essential character of a thing. The connotative would be more of the common usage of the world to certain people. So, in English at least, there is a distinction. But it is a false one, because there is 1) no proof that we can perceive a things essential character to define it. 2) Even if we could, by defining it we must use other words which then entails other ideas and other perceptions thus muddling or possibly negating this supposed essence we hope to communicate. (This is to say, everything becomes related to everything else via language, but there is no reason to think such relations exist if every particular thing has an essential character or property which differentiates it) 3) If a language is learned, then how we assume to know the world is done by habit, and habit alone.

Of course, it would seem to me that if this were the case, what I have just written would as well appear as gibberish (perhaps it does). If it does or doesn’t, is it because words can fully encapsulate an object and render knowable, or is it because words simply supply their own meanings to any given person, without regard to objective truth?

This is a subject that was obliquely discussed in an earlier thread on what is the “best” language?

I think an argument could be made that almost any form of communication has near-far correspondence to reality depending on the intent of the users. I question that any human language is capable of a one-to-one transfer of ‘knowing’ reality, because the first problem is deciding what is ‘real’. Language, in this sense, would imply that there are at least two humans who both know and agree as to what is reality.

This isn’t to say that certain languages can’t be more benificial in specific applications -ie- binary code is certainly more useful in computer programming than say, Swahili. But this is applied language, with no intrinsic connection with any but a constructed reality.

In a word: yes. Language is culturally, locally, and experientially derived. It both illuminates and creates our ‘reality’. The wonder is, that we can communicate at all.

JT

Wouldn’t it be then that all language can accomplish is to report the inner world, not what is seen but what is felt? That is, with any degree of certainty.

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I believe one could think of the simplest sensations (pleasure pain etc) without having to rely on language. The more complex sense data there is to interpret, it seems, the more required language seems to become. But nothing in complexity itself assures certainty, or so I claim.

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Do you really need words to distinguish between the sensations of pleasure and pain? Do you need the words “orgasm” and “castration” to think that one is preferred over the other? You don’t even need the word prefer to know that pleasure is different from pain.

Obviously one needs words to describe sensations. I don’t think one needs language to anticipate sensations necessarily. At least, the most basic sorts of sensation.

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I made various attempts at tackling almost every posts in this thread, but I’m satisfied with none of my responses. The problem of language really sucks, big time.

Language may allow one to express something about physical sensing, but language is a post-sensing issue. Another way of saying language, is “symbol for”. Language as used as a symbol for simple physical sensing or the naming of physical objects is rather straight forward and the “sense” of it is easily understood. The having to make ‘sense’ of language begins with adjectives and adverbs and the need grows with every level of complexity all the way to words containing meta meta meta symbolic concepts.

Examples: rock>small rock>small brown rock>small brown rough
textured rock.
child>teary-eyed child>crying child>sobbing child.

And conceptual words and phrases: God. Love. God’s love…

JT

What does “Ow” mean? Does it mean something different to others?

Is language what makes us “human”? - Or do other animals have the same capacity?

I think I would agree to the extent that language corresponds in necessity only to the mental image of what is perceived. And then only to each and every individual perceiver insofar as it is a matter of habit. Take something never before observed and there are no words to describe it. Because you must first sense it. There seems, to me, to be no justification for believing that language can capture the essence of a thing to the point that one can assure one’s self of certainty with words alone.

And if you cannot be certain, regardless of the language you use, then what language reports, with certainty, is itself.

My understanding is that even ants can communicate in some fashion. If one wanted to be generous, one could call the method ants use to communicate a form of language I suppose.

There is a fundamental mistake here, in your assumptions – a very common one, even among professional linguists and philosophers of language: It is no part of the function of language to correspond with the outside world – its function is to correspond with and shape mental modeling. While there is one or more cognitive functions that is/are interested in the outside world, language only deals with them insofar as their workproduct makes it into the mental model. Dealing with exterior reality is a secondary, incidental, and indirect aspect of language.

Bill,

Dealing with exterior reality is a secondary, incidental, and indirect aspect of language.

Excellent point, and one taken up even more principally by Manturana & Varela in the “organizational closure” of their Autopoietic theory of Life:

“The relations between components in a composite unity that make it a composite unity of a particular kind, specifying its class identity as a simple unity in a metadomain with respect to its components, constitutes its organization. In other words, the organization of a composite unity is the configuration of static or dynamic relations between its components that specifies its class identity as a composite unity that can be distinguished as a simple unity of a particular kind.”

(Maturana, Texts in Cybernetic Theory 1988)

"Question: What have we learned from the descriptions of system-wholes in the last decade? Answer: That in order to account for the coherence of the observed systems, their constitutive interactions must be mutual and reciprocal, so as to become an interconnected network.
There seems to be plenty of evidence to substantiate this view of system-wholes. The traditional source of examples has been living systems. Surely in them the circularity of interconnectedness is more striking than anywhere else, both topologically and functionally. But, biological systems are not unique in this respect, and the current interest in ecological wholeness and world models are testimony to our growing understanding of this. …

In terms of organization, then, empirical observation reveals that the system-wholes are organizationally closed: their organization is a circular network of interactions rather than a tree of hierarchical processes.
Conversely, then, if we are trying to make more precise our notion of a whole, we propose to make these empirical results a guideline. That is, we propose to take the circular and mutual interconnectedness of organization, or organizational closure, as the characterization of system-wholes."

(Varela & Goguen, The arithmetic of closure, Journal of Cybernetics, Vol. 8 (1978), pp. 292-293, emphasis in the original)

[edit, added]

Perturbation

“Internal Determination. An object or event is a symbol only if it is a token for an abbreviated nomic chain that occurs within the bounds of the system’s organizational closure. In other words, whenever the system’s closure determines certain regularities in the face of internal or external interactions and perturbations, such regularities can be abbreviated as a symbol, usually the initial or terminal element in the nomic chain.”
(Varela, 1979, pp. 79-80)

from: enolagaia.com/EA.html#perturbation

Dunamis

I agree (more on that in a minute).

If you have read my posts in this thread you may have noticed that i wander all over the place (I freely admit that this is from a lack of expertise with the subject) but it seems important to me to mention the idea of the denotative. It would seem to me, as per your argument, as it concerns the functions of language, is itself not capable of representing an essential characteristic to a perceiver.

So, as it may be, language is fine for supplying certain descriptives, size, number, color, smell, sound, taste etc. But even the ‘truth’ of these things may vary relative to any given perceiver. As you say, language corresponds with and shapes mental modeling there should exist no expectation that it corresponds completely with things, dare I say it, in themselves.

Would it not be then that words are merely symbols that can never truly, completely represent things to us to the degree that the idea of a denotative, essential essence is beyond our ability to ever know?

I was reading today a Bakhtin essay on the process of literary creation that drives this point home: the writer has to imagine the person he is writing for in order to image the characters he is writing about, because he has to shape his fiction according to what experience he thinks his reader has and so will be able to recognize when written. The reader’s personal and idiosyncratic experience has to resonate with the writer’s for him to recognize and re-create the image. But of course, the created image is defined and limited, and reality is unbounded, and each party to the process has “excess” information/knowledge which is not, even in principle, knowable to the other. Beautiful, economical analysis, done more than seventy years ago, with virtually nothing but Sassaure to work with – and the Russian Formalists, of course.

GCT,

“Would it not be then that words are merely symbols that can never truly, completely represent things to us to the degree that the idea of a denotative, essential essence is beyond our ability to ever know?”

“Internal Determination. An object or event is a symbol only if it is a token for an abbreviated nomic chain that occurs within the bounds of the system’s organizational closure. In other words, whenever the system’s closure determines certain regularities in the face of internal or external interactions and perturbations, such regularities can be abbreviated as a symbol, usually the initial or terminal element in the nomic chain.”

(Varela, Principles of Biological Autonomy,1979, pp. 79-80)

Dunamis

Bill,

I was reading today a Bakhtin essay on the process of literary creation that drives this point home

Nice to see this point approached by another, pre-establishing discipline, and in fairly whole agreement. I’ve never read Bakhtin, but it is a major name that repeatedly comes up like a drum beat, no matter where I read. I’m sure I will enjoy him when I get to him.

Dunamis