Then we are back to this…
“And we can know this for a fact…how?”
Now, with regard to the Kids, what we can’t know for a fact is who they are. Instead, all we can know for sure is that “I” believe that they exist here. That “I” believe they have inundated ILP of late with all manner of clamorous claptrap that have driven folks more inclined to take philosophy, say, seriously, to other forums.
Well, at a certain point, you’d have to believe in the idea that this ‘God’ does step into the flesh from time to time, so to speak and chooses certain casings of flesh to do this with based on several varying factors of merit and trust that those casings of flesh, while fallible, may be the closest fleshly representatives of the being that is known as God.
Why would one have to believe this if there is no substantive evidence in which to support the fact of it?
Believing something “in your head” and demonstrating that all rational men and women are obligated to believe it in turn are two very different things.
Yet you believe in God regardless. You just don’t believe religions take on it. Do you not curse God here and there? Have you never asked God for help? So, the phrase ‘you would have to’ would apply to that on some level. You took what I said out of context, though. At the point of believing in God, then you would have to believe just what I said you would have to. Simply because in all terms of reality and what we know of psychology and everything else, if God exists, then such would have to happen based on so much other supporting evidence, such as the phrase that we were made in Gods image and if we are fallible, prone to temptation, etc., etc., then so, too, would God be.
I never said you were obligated to believe in any of it, but you definitely felt obligated to sit there and think I was cramming it down your throat anyway, pushing your negative and pessimistic viewpoints on me, your faulty arguments on me, etc., without any rational thought on the subject whatsoever, based solely in what you feel, your unstable emotionality. Yet, you claim all people who don’t believe in God to be rational, when there is overwhelming evidence that this is not the case, given the condition of the world around us that they make worse just the same as people do who believe outright and publicly in God.
And how can I prove that you believe in God? I can’t; I have no evidence to support this other than the circumstantial evidence that you are no different than so many others who have actually written their own personal testimonies of how they came to actually believe in God, whether they accepted any one persons or groups perception of God, and many have stated that they do believe in God and yet disagree with religion. It’s not religion that I’m cramming down your throat, but the reality of the belief if approached reasonably and rationally by accepting very disturbing facts about people, facts that they’d rather not face or only face the disturbing aspects thereof.
This has gotten slightly off-topic from Prime Numbers, yet you guided it this way and I won’t sit there and let you bring forth an irrational argument against what I believe; not that I have to let you; you did that of your own free will. However, when I say ‘I won’t let you’, I don’t mean it that way, but in the sense that I won’t let you get away with smearing the very strong possibility that I’m right just because you want to be unreasonable about it.
Just so you know…you wrote this. Honest for a moment.
yeah, at least he admitted that God does exist, which I missed when I responded. Thanks for pointing that out, lol.
I once did believe in the existence of the Christian God. But even then I suspected this was not the same thing as believing in the existence of prime numbers.
Prime numbers exist by definition: a whole number that can only be divided without a remainder by itself and one.
A number is either a prime or it is not. No dasein, no conflicting goods, no political economy.
And, sure, down through the ages folks have managed to define [or to deduce] God into existence any number of times. And, obviously, there are any number of folks who believe in the existence of God “in their head”.
But that is still not the same thing as actually demonstrating why all rational men and women obligated to believe in the actual/factual existence of God. Let alone the God, my God.
Sure. And I suspect lots of folks who do not believe in the actual/factual existence of God do so. Why? Because psychologically whenever we experience something particularly brutal in our lives we often long for there to exist an entity able to explain it to us in terms of “why me?”. And then an entity able to give us a happy ending through, among other things, salvation and Divine Justice.
Who then can doubt why so many folks believe in God? After all, without God you have to accept the reality that truly terrible things can happen to truly good people for absolutely no reason at all. Just part and parcel of the brute facticity built into an essentially absurd and meaningless existence.
This is just your own subjective rendition of what us passing between us now. And at least I recognize the extent to which my reaction to you can only ever be the embodiment of dasein.
Again, for me what counts is not what folks claim is rational but what they are able to demonstrate that all rational minds are obligated to believe. Thus to state that the number 7 is a prime number would seem to be true objectively to me. It’s not just a matter of opinion.
And to claim that God [a God, the God, my God] does in fact exist is certainly not necessarily irrational. How on earth could I possible believe that it is? Instead, I ask for an argument and for evidence able to persuade me that He does in fact exist.
You say…
Okay, approach it reasonably and rationally such that all truth-seeking men and women will be convinced. What disturbing facts can you cite here. And how do you demonstrate that they are facts such that those who don’t share them are necessarily not being reasonable.
By being “unreasonable” of course you mean not sharing your own frame of mind. Whereas with respect to these deeply puzzling relationships I would never argue that my own point of view is anything but a personal opinion rooted in dasein.
I have approached it reasonably and rationally multiple times on this forum, am in fact getting tired of doing so, do know that you’ve paid attention to at least some of it, enough to know that I have done so to the best of my ability and you still deny all evidence even in reasonable conjecture. I don’t care if you share my frame of mind or not, to reject all forms of evidence simply because it’s not good enough for you is bullshit.
I was making the distinction between the alleged existence of God and the manner in which I allege the existence of Kids here at ILP. Or what others call the “retards”.
And I later acknowledged that the existence of Kids was in fact only an intellectual contraption “in my head”.
With regard to the existence of God, the distinction that I always make is the same – between those who claim to believe in His existence “in their head” and those able to demonstrate his actual/factual existence such that all rational men and women are obligated to believe in His existence in turn.
Were you? That was rather unclear. You should clarify in the process of speaking next time as it would save a lot on confusion.
And by the way, I am God; in all terms and my story has been greatly exaggerated by all sides and all facets and many have acted in my name as me or as ‘God’ that weren’t me, which lead to mass confusion along the way.
We’re all doing the best we can with what we’ve been given.
Tell me that this isn’t a classic example of the “objectivist mind”. He assures us that he has already encompassed these relationships As They Really Are “multiple times”. And he is getting pissed off because I don’t just nod my head and agree with the points that he raises. Which, of course, makes me “one of them”.
Now, with prime numbers, we don’t often come across this division between “own of us” [those who believe in the existence of prime numbers] and “one of them” [those that do not].
Do we?
And the fact that it just doesn’t work that way pertaining to the existence of God is something that the True Believer simply can not fathom.
After all, they have informed over and over and over again why there is really no difference here at all.
Oh, yeah, and I forgot: His is God.
Actually, if you read my entire post, I’m getting pissed off because you reject all forms of evidence that I submit. I’m not asking you to nod your head and agree with me. When you ask for proof and proof is given; when you ask for evidence and evidence is given and you just deny it or say that it’s not good enough, that makes you a fucking prick and its bullshit. ‘One of them.’ Right. One of the idiot millions of people that sits there in their own bullshit, maybe.
Ok, motherfucker; what about negative prime numbers? They count out all those positive ones, surely there’s got to be a negative one somewhere, right? Explain that to me or explain the impossibility of it.
I can fathom quite well your fucking mindset, because it took me a length of time to believe in God myself; I performed tests, framed theories and hypotheses that I carried out; not coldly; but in the manner prescribed somewhat by religion, with an open heart; following the work of Jesus in helping others, looking at the world around me, seeing the problems and addressing them one by one in turn. I have personal testimony of the proof of God beyond just my own self, but again that isn’t enough for you, since my personal testimony is only so much more evidence that YOU do not accept, it not being good enough for YOU.
You can fuck off, you piece of shit.
Hey, I know; how about you piss me off some more all for calling you on your bullshit, you weak-minded little bitch. I fucking dare you. How about you piss me off even more to where I bust through this swearing and insulting and name-calling and actually get to the point where I start completely schooling you again and again and breaking you down bit by fucking bit as you come at me with the same manner of attacks as so many others. How about that? How about you follow the same tired lines of so many others before you, prove your own unoriginality in the process as I move from a ground I’ve already triumphed over, your psychology, your methods, now that I’m on more familiar ground here with your direct reply as you’ve just presented it, and the arguments themselves. I only get better as time goes on. People like you tend to devolve until they don’t even bother anymore because they know they have no leg to stand on; no true argument save their own infantile dark emotion.
Sigh…
It was only a matter of time of course.
Yep. Wasn’t it, though? I love the subtle insinuation that you make of my psychology that I was bound to degenerate to this again based on so much of my actions here already, as if getting pissed off at shit is a degeneration of self, or if swearing and insulting and genuinely being upset over something worth being upset about is wrong. I love again how you infantilely try to put yourself higher up than me without having actually earned the right to do so. Isn’t it amazing how much body language one can pick up just in a few simple words that someone else drops? I think it’s fucking amazing as Hell, but then what does it matter what I think? What’s the proof, sir; what’s the evidence that that is what he meant how he meant it and aren’t you inferring too much; assuming just a bit past your own ass and does not that make an ass out of you and me or at least just you?
Why don’t you save yourself the trouble.
Thank you for adding to my glory, btw, if even unintentionally, if it was unintentional. Kind of reinforces religion a little bit, since even if God wills evil to be evil or not; even if God didn’t create it and does not allow it but it happens anyway; even if God does not wish for things that get in the way and interfere with the fact that even God itself is similar to so many of its supposed creations, such is the fact that even all those things still add to the glory of this ‘God’ that is able to overcome all those things and put them in their place, whether it likes to do so or not.
I personally don’t care for these interactions or these ‘fights’. I would not have them if not for the proud and egotistical; if not for those that hunger for power and control over others; to raise themselves high without actually earning. I would rather have peace and pleasant conversation, but I can not ignore the fact that even this adds to the glory that I never sought for myself, that I never wanted. I never went in search of glory, can’t even enjoy it the same as those who did search for glory and having found a small piece, contented themselves with that piece like a cat with a ball of yarn or a piece of string.
What the fuck does any of this have to do with the points that I raised with you above regarding the distinction between establishing the existence of prime numbers and establishing the existence of a God, the God, your god.
Or you as God.
Uh, why was it so important for you to make those points? What did prime numbers have to do with God at all?
You asked, ‘Why can’t God just tell us what the largest prime number actually is?’ -paraphrase
And I think I answered: ‘Don’t numbers just keep going as high as anyone cares to count and therefore there would be no ‘largest’ prime number since another would, theoretically, always be found?’ -also paraphrase
You’re the one who, then, wanted to focus more on God than on Prime numbers, an argument you therein lost as you side-tracked yourself from the conversation and lost through so many other factors, not simply because you side-tracked yourself from your own initial conversation.
I find that my question of ‘I wonder if there is an Optimus Prime Number’ was more reasonable of a question than your:
Because the answer to that is that there is no correlation between establishing the existence of prime numbers and establishing the existence of God. But, you started that line of conversation and I felt compelled to follow along with it. Anytime you want to go back to talking about Prime Numbers, you’re more than welcome to do so.
Because, as I noted in the OP, I was pondering how the existence of prime numbers [and finding the largest one so far] factors into the meaning of “all there is”. And if that doesn’t [eventually] nudge us in the general direction of God…
Okay, but doesn’t that prompt you to ponder Why That Is? What is the ontological [teleological?] nature of “all there is” – Existence, Reality – such that prime numbers exist at all. And then when we go down the road even further and ponder why there is existence rather than no existence at all, God is certainly one of the possible explanation. At least until we ask why is there a God instead of No God?
On the other hand, I can well understand why folks invents “the gods” in order to delude themselves that they have access to the actual answer.
Not even counting all the other reasons: immortality, slavation, devine justice etc.
But, in my view, that still doesn’t take the existence of a God, the God, your God [or you as God] out of your head such that all rational men and women are obligatied to believe it in turn.
And isn’t that basically the whole point of philosophy – to establish that which we can know beyond all doubt as true objectively? True beyond what any particular one of us merely believes to be true subjectively “in our head”?