Let them fail.

I wasn’t sure where to post this, but I feel strongly about it so it is “my” philosophy on parenting.

Why is it that we have lost our perspective with our children to the point when we are afraid to let them fail. On soccer teams now they give everyone a trophy; they rarely have captains of teams - God forbid that someone would look like the leader. I even read that teachers are now foregoing the “red” pen in lieu of it looking too harsh - giving a purple or happier color instead. Children own their parents, and most of them know that if they buck up against the teacher their parents will support their nonsense. Dr. Spock started this notion of allowing children to “have their say” but without the guidance that they need children are out of control.

Little Johnny needs to fall on his face once in a while, look like a fool, lose the damn game, NOT get a trophy, not study and get the failing grade. If we don’t give them limits they will never be able to find those limitations within themselves. Stop cutting the crusts off the peanut butter sandwiches, I say.

Your thoughts?

bessy,

you are spot on of course…

but the liberal nanny busybodies will tell you that it is a crime to treat your child as such…

we have to remove competition from the lives of children via the schools and of course, we can’t educate children to any standard…

johnny got an F on his test? oh dear no, that will crush his self esteem… give him an A+ and his high school diploma even though he is illiterate…

what do you mean johnny can’t do anything? he has a diploma!

-Imp

Haha… Lets just say I have personal experience of what you suggest Bessy… and lets just say that im happy I was brought up that way. I cant stand seeing parents whose children have control of them. First of all, I honestly believe these situations are just worse for the children, because they will never learn the nature of consequence. Second of all, HOW THE HELL CAN THE PARENTS STAND IT??? I mean, I swear, if I had a child and he (not she) ever pissed me off… well… lets just say that I hope no one notices the bruises. In the case of a girl… God I would have no idea what to do… but im a quick learner especially when it comes to people, so I think I would manage.

What you describe had to do with the self-esteem, or everyone is good and special, movement that seemed to culminate in the 90s and still lingers today.

The idea is that blows to the self-image can last a lifetime. My experience with people certainly shows this to be true. However, the intensity of the blow and the perspective of it by the person count toward the resulting response. So, a mild blow can make a person take defensive action to prevent a repeat of the blow. The perspective can help the person to believe that they are capable of getting assaulted, but also capable of defense. All of this helps a person to realize that things will happen to them, but that there is something that can be done about it. Overall, the person learns that they are vulnerable but not totally so.

The self-esteem movement tries to eliminate all possibility of psychological vulnerability by shielding the person from any assault, whether it comes from within, through personal faultiness, or via the outside world, due to self-comparison to others. This sets the person up to believe that they are not subject to personal fault or bitter defeat at the hands of another.

One has to ask which model sets one up for greater damage.

Having had a terrible number of bruises in my childhood and spent a noticable amount of time in the house being careful how I walked, I know some of the ramifications of discipline.

I agree that in some cases, we do need to take into account what the child was thinking, how they feel about something, and what makes them feel okay, but the current movement is too far. We are allowing them to get away with everything. It is disgraceful to think that children cannot cope with feeling that someone else is better than them. Competition can drive you to improve yourself if viewed the right way.

Now, this may be a case where in order to be able to reach some sort of middle ground, we must experience both ends of the spectrum. We have seen a period of pretty strict control over children and have now seen a period with very low to no control over children. Maybe we can reach a middle ground that involves discipline mixed with guidance that lets the child express themselves, but also teaches them valuable lessons as well. I mean some of the most valuable things I’ve learned was because I did it wrong once. Let them do it wrong. They might learn something.

Thanks for the great responses. I have five children - (one girl) all grown, and I tried it all including the spanking. (losing battle, and plain cruel and stupid… not to mention it doesn’t work.) Having all boys and doing it mostly on my own, I found that the Achilles heal changes every year. Take it away and mean it. That is the key. I never had an ounce of trouble with any of my kids because they know not to mess with me. One year, when curfew was midnight, my son forgot to call me. It was October and I grounded his ass till Christmas. They all watched, and they all learned. Don’t mess with Yomama. :astonished:

The key is to train your first (mean it) and it will train the rest to fall in line. Hup Two.

Old fashioned manners are in at my house. My boys aren’t even allowed to wear a baseball cap at the table. Napkins in the lap, and you have to use my name if you are calling me. No “Hey you” allowed. Old fashioned? You bet. Do I like it?

Yup.

Hmm.

I dont have any children (yet). But I will tell you that I was raised differently.

For a good part of my childhood, my parents were rarely there because of work. I mostly was with my brother, and we never spoke. I hung out with a couple of my neighbors, but for the most part I was alone, playing bball, or on the computer, etc.

When my parents were home, they did sometimes discipline me, but being european immigrants, they did not know of grounding. Spanking was the method of choice, but even that only happened about twice in my life (for bouncing a ball in the house of all things).

Anyway. What I’m saying is that… I grew up in a very discipline-free environment. This had two consequences - I learned a lot on my own as far as behavior goes, I was a fairly responsible kid and did not feel a need to rebel against my parents when I became a teenager. However also, I lost respect for my parents disciplinary attempts (no spanking, but rather trying to use words when I was a teenager).

I was never much trouble in high school, I didnt smoke, I didnt drink, etc because I knew those were “bad”. My parents never told me not to smoke or drink (they never told me about sex either), but there was no controlling parent for me to rebel against. Anyway, I turned out okay ;]

I’m not a expert certainly, but it seems to me that a lot of teenage behavior stems from a stronger sense of self and a want to rebel against an “unreasonable” authority (im sure the hormones have something to do with it). Most parents, like in your example Bessie, wants their kids to follow their instructions “because I said so”… that is… you are the Supreme Arbitrer, and what you say is law. Kind of like a God figure, “dont ask why… its just wrong… so dont do it”.

I think there is a happy medium in where disciplanary action is not black&white “i said so”, and is also not “figure it out for yourself”, but rather a more meaningful communication. That being said, I’m sure this doesnt work with kids of all ages , but I think that should be the spirit of parental disciplinary action.

On the broader topic in the OP. There is a danger in a lot todays “PC parenting” to build a sense of entitlement, but as pointed out, theres a dangerous in “over-parenting” and building a neurotic drive. Games are very important I think in the development of a child. They promote creative thinking and a sense of accomplish that comes with skill-building. Trophies shouldnt be giving to the kids who lost the baseball games, but similarly they shouldnt be yelled at and called losers. If I were a coach, I would say “Hey, they were better. Next season, we’re gonna train harder and see if we can beat them” or whatever it is. A short-term focus not on that particular win or loss, but on long-term goals of becoming stronger.

thats my 2 cents.

anvildoc:

What’s funny tho’ is that we are great friends… my one son even fills in as my drummer (I am a musician). Maybe I explained it like I was a dictator, but I meant it as old fashioned values. They have thanked me - telling me that it has helped them in business etc. No iron fist - just responsible values showing consideration for the next person. Those are missing today, I think, but I appreciated your 2 cents anyway.

All great responses. I am a single father of a 7 yo boy. I try to explain things so that he can understand, but I am also willing to stand aside and let him fall on his face. This is his experience, I am just here to help him through. I do not condone hitting in anyway, as the only message you are giving is that violence is ok under certain circumstances.

The middle way is always the best in any walk of life. When my son gets mad at losing something, I try to explain not to get mad, but rather to try harder to win the next time. I am far from an expert and learning as I go. He teaches me just as much. I think we just need to install a sense of personal resposibility in them, something that is lacking in the world at large.

Failing is not bad, failing is always a learning experience. The only time we truly fail is when we don’t learn from our own mistakes.

Good one, 33. I must say that the dynamic does change tho’ when you add a few more siblings. The classic example is when you buy something for one kid b/c the other got it. The big balancing act from hell. When you have over 3 kids is a dealbreaker on that one, which is also one of the reasons that kids from large families get the “sharing/money thing” by default. Just a thought.

As far as spanking, by oldest is almost thirty, so I was on the tag end of the Beav. Honestly, I don’t think June got out the paddle. Now Eddie Haskell… Eddie needed a good spanking.

Why do you suppose suicidal tendencies, depression, anomie and so on are so common among 18-25 year olds? If you bring up a child seeking to protect it from everything when it finally gets out into the world it will become crippled by every problem it meets. Tyler Durden put it well, though I’m sure he’s paraphrasing, ‘I don’t wanna die without any scars’. Well, I don’t think someone is an adult until they have some scars and those scars have healed somewhat.

Consider how mature children with terminal illnesses often are, they are tougher than many people think. I’ve made plenty of mistakes in my short life and I’ve learnt a lot from them (or so I’d like to think). One example would be how I was struck in the face with a football moving at some pace and I realised that it wasn’t so bad, that there was nothing to fear. I’m now the most fearless tackler I know.

I think that you have to watch out that you aren’t too tough on the kids. The reason that I say this is because they will get used to being ordered around. Then, when a negative person that comes around has the same style as you they will be able to control your kids. This can be the root of peer pressure. So, allowing the kids to have their own way can be good for the development of their assertiveness skills.

I would think that disclipline is best established by laying out action–>consequence rules. A child should be “allowed” to come in late and know full well that s/he will be grounded for x ammount of time without having to listen to “I’ve been worried sick about you!!!” This gives the child some dignity at least since s/he is simply making descisions and living with the fallout. What better training for life?

As far as failure, what value is there in success if there is no possibility of failure? There is a sense in which everyone is important and worthwhile, but there also exists a sense in which there are better/worse lives lead.

I agree - I am very big on apologizing when I’m wrong… when I have gone overboard I let them work it off. Also, I don’t believe punishments should break hearts. I never broke one.

Hello F(r)iends,

What little Johnny needs is a good old-fashioned beating… If it weren’t for my father and later my mother beating me with belts, cords, broomsticks, plates, fiberglass sticks, switches, fists, palms, and shoes I would have turned out like some kind of menace.

I recall watching a six-year-old child scream profanities at his momma… I was tempted to bitch-slap them both!

-Thirst4Discipline

I actually think that, since we cannot legaly slap another parent’s child, we should at least be able to slap the parents whose child is having a tantrum indoors in public. Well, maybe not slap but perhaps fine them?

thirst,

How come you can make me LOL even with the likes of that? We have had this little chit-chat before AND, as most of you know, I was raised with psychological switches and rods… what’s worse? Give me a lashing anyday with a big ass whip!

I think we should be able to record a CD of said tantrum and play it night and day at the house of the parents. It would teach both the child and the parent some manners.

I can’t stand children who, for example when their parent is trying to do some shopping, run and scream and try to cause havoc just because they aren’t getting all the attention. I give them some attention, the sort that makes them go quiet instantly and start believing in God.

This is especially effective in any shop that sells knives.

My mam and dad are divorced, so I’m lliving with my mother now…
I’m still student and I can’t take a whole care for myself.
But I respect my mother for this - she gives me the right to take the life in my hands, so I can learn from my mistakes and I’m trying not to dissapoint her. Because it will come a time, when I’ll have to live with my own family, so how would I manage with my new life, if everything was in my mom’s hands? You have to stand face 2 face with life to realize how hard is it when you control it by yourself. I see kids my age who don’t care for anything, everything is done by their mother… I don’t approve this, I find it wrong for educating kids. Anyway, it’s really hard to decide what to do, because lots of things depend on the singular kid- some are obedient, others are hooligans…who knows? :unamused: It’s better to watch over your kid and let it see the eyes through the adult’s eye, than to hide it from the big, hard game, named ‘life’.
That’s what I think.

P.S. The first time I started looking deeper in the life was 8-9 years ago, when my parents divorced. Then I started to realize, that life is not ‘that good game, that I see when I wake up’. I don’t think I’d be the same individual, if thinks were not the same.