let us take free spirit seriously

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

let us take the arguments of Free spirit seriously
instead of attacking him…

what exactly does it mean to be a Christian?

one hears all the time that by “allowing” god or Jesus to take
control of their lives, that they, Christians, have found the means
of happiness or salvation…

but what does this mean? allowing someone else to take control?
even if it is god/jesus? to allow god/jesus to control one is to
vacate or abandon one’s own control over their life…
you may say, or not, that by abandoning one’s control, you allow
god’s plan to take over and be executed…to abandon one
control over one’s life is quite a leap of faith in there being a god…

I know that I exist and I can control my fate and life,
but to allow god/jesus to control it? To plan it?

even Christians admit that god’s plans are inscrutable, impossible
to understand or interpret…

reading the bible, and I have several times, one easily see’s that
god quite often makes people be nothing more then cannon fodder…
a means to an end… which makes people, well expendable…
we are used and abused to make a point…read Job…
and tell me differently! One might say that Job was rewarded in the end…
but recall his suffering, really nothing more then torturing, and how does
someone who is tortured and then being rewarded for being tortured, worth it?
how does rewarded for being tortured really make being tortured worth it?
it doesn’t take away the pain and horror of being tortured, it just puts
perfume on it…

if anything, god should be put on trial for the act of torturing Job, just to make a
point…

if nothing else, reading the bible and taking it seriously, should
deter anyone from actually holding to Christian beliefs…

read the bible and see how many are killed and tortured to make a point…

to name a few Samson, Moses, Jesus, Cain, Adam/Eve…

if one takes the bible seriously, then one cannot really be a Christian
because of the bible’s using and abusing people to make a point,
to make people the means to an end… which is nothing more
then communism under Stalin did or capitalism which is in use
even at this moment…

read the bible and see how people are used to make a point,
an means to an end…

Kropotkin

2

Which arguments?

3

to be a christian…

Kropotkin

4

That’s not an argument.

5

K: a theological answer which means it is what it is, the answer,
and not to seek or to question…which is philosophy…
read free spirit and see that he quite clearly hold that
the proper answer to existence is a “Christian” answer…
and it is an argument, a question to be answered…
think about it…

isn’t existence really just a question about what it means to be human,
and one question, amidst many questions, how are we to live our lives?
and Free spirit answer is to live as an Christian… and see Nietzsche answer
and see Bentham answer and see the declaration of independence answer
and see Karl Marx answer…

that there are as many different answers as there are people…
which answer is the “right” answer?

that is the question…

Kropotkin

6

An argument would be :

This, that and another thing are true.

Therefore one ought to be a Christian.

Then we could “take it seriously” and say ‘another thing’ is false and therefore your argument fails. Or ‘this, that and another thing’ are true so we can say that your conclusion is correct.

I don’t see it in this thread.

7

K: the fact that you can’t see an “argument” says more about you then it does
about me…I see questions everywhere… kinda like seeing “dead people”

for every “answer” I see a question/argument… when one says,
“I believe in god” I don’t see an answer, I see a question…
and all of existence is about the questions, not the answers…

for answers, they are “ad hoc”,

ad hoc: when necessary or needed,
created or done for a particular purpose as necessary…

created for the moment…until the next question forces new answers,
new reasons for existence…

a statement like: “there is a god” isn’t an answer,
it is simply just another question about what does it mean to exists…

even existence is just another question…

Kropotkin

8

Questions are not an argument.

FS1983 has argued that one ought to be a Christian to avoid eternal damnation.

That was extensively and seriously covered in his Pascal’s Wager thread.

He also argued that one ought to be a Christian to avoid being “empty inside”.

I didn’t pay much attention so I don’t how it turned out.

I don’t recall his other arguments. But I don’t think “being controlled by God or Jesus” was one of them (contrary to what the OP suggests).

I asked him what’s good about Catholicism and he replied “saints”. Whatever that means. :-"

9

a question by its very nature, presumes an argument…

I believe in god… that is by its very nature, a question
and an argument… the argument is not explicit but implicit…

I believe in god…

so the argument becomes this, I hold that there is a god by X, Y and Z theories…
and I say, no, that isn’t true…

there is no god…which implies an argument to the effect that there is no god…

a statement is an argument that is implied…god exists because of…regardless of
the reasons offered…whereas even questions are arguments…

why does god exists?

the question itself creates the argument…just as the answer, there is a god…
creates the argument…

don’t be so literal… think about every question and every answer as being
an argument for something or other…

Kropotkin