Liberation

What is “Liberation”?
Can liberation be obtained without the grace of God?

That would of course depend on which “God” you are referring to. If you are talking about the “real one”, then absolutely not. But of course, on the Internet, no one speaks of the real God.

And “liberation” would refer to the freedom to pursue your true needs (including being aware of them and how to find them - information). But again, everyone would want to argue over what “true needs” actually means. :sunglasses:

The “real one”

Why?

Indeed.
Thank you.

Does anyone anywhere ever speak of the “real God,” whatever that might be?

Liberation is an escape.
Always has been; always will be.

I am partially agree with you.
As you said that,liberation is an escape,then there must be the trouble for which this escape is required.
If any kind of trouble or suffering exist.
Then what is better,to prevail the trouble or to Escape from the trouble.
Again;
From my view point ,liberation is nothing but only the entire freedom from good and evil.
A golden chain is as much a chain as an iron chain.
Thank you.

It is just that from my perspective, it’s far easier to escape troubles by cheaper remedies as narcotics if that’s all someone wants.
But if you want to come to terms with the what troubles you, then look directly at it and learn how it moves and learn how you move with it.
Any child can keep the light on to escape the fear of the dark.
But to come to terms with it, at some point, they must immerse themselves in the dark.
In the end, they can move through light, dark, and all ranges of light in between.

Liberation is just keeping a light switch on.

There is no reason that I need freedom from anything that I experience as a human being.
Everything that I do experience is what is only possible because I am human.
I might as well chop off my head as to seek liberation.

I beg your pardon.

Physical and fiscal freedom are achieved through material means, so even materialists can achieve that degree of liberation. But wisdom and philosophical grace are necessary to achieve an internal spiritual liberation. God has nothing to do with it since He is only an observer.

No, liberation is being able to switch the light on or off as you desire. Liberation is the freedom and courage to do what you want, no matter how dumb, as long as it’s moral (meaning on your own dime).

Technically, yes. But such total immoral liberation can only engender chaos. There will always be necessary limits to our freedom, both physical and moral. But I don’t view such limits as chains, just the facts of life.

Painful;

Wrong discussion of liberation.
The liberation you are speaking of is the liberation of free will as opposed to being controlled.

Liberation that Monk is speaking of is more the Eastern form of Liberation in which a person is free from their burdens of life that prevent them from achieving true happiness, harmony, and peace in their true self.

The closest description to this for your neck of the woods would be the liberation alleged that Jesus offers as a divinity to those that accept him as their savior.
(I’m not saying you believe that or not; it’s just the closest thing which you understand fairly well due to your interests)

There is a HUGE difference between the natural oppression from Nature and the oppression from Man. It is the oppression from Man that people rightfully complain most about.

Yet instead, neither is the Liberation that was originally being discussed.
The troubles that Liberation that Monk speaks of frees one from are the troubles found inside of one’s self; not beyond one’s self.
Hence, the light switch analogy.
The trouble was within the self; not outside.

So is mine. Free will is necessary to achieve internal spiritual liberation. Otherwise the innocent (computers and animals) could have it.

Because it is the only thing they can do much about.

Dream on. :-$

Can the dog have Buddha nature?

O.K.
If you are reffering the light switch for consciousness, then i am agree with you.

I don’t think so…
Every human on this earth is dying for pleasure.
Sorrow is also an experience but who demads it,obviously no one,because every one is seeking pleasure.
Our bitter experience of the past is the reason which encourage us for the freedom .
Thank you.

You cannot know pleasure without the sorrow and you cannot know sorrow without the pleasure.
You cannot have breath in without breath out, and you cannot have breath out without breath in.
Pleasure is my exhale and sorrow is my inhale.
Sorrow is my exhale and pleasure is my inhale.
Without one neither can live.

You discribed goodly about pleasure,but it is not applicable to everyone. (in case of common mass.)
Like a coin you described the two faces of life ,i,e Sorrow and joy.
But we are talking about liberation.
so according to me
when this respiratory sytem of sorrow and joy will in equilibrium then the liberation will achieve.
Thank you.

Then we are saying the same thing.
The only difference is that I call that balance rather than liberation, as I do not see anything one needs freedom from. Instead I see what one needs to learn how to move with.

TheStumps,
It is fairly simple.
It is not that you are removing pleasure and pain.
It is that you are freeing yourself from “the addiction” to pleasure and pain.

Liberation is freedom from addiction.

Would you say that a life without addiction is more satisfying and meaningful than a life with addiction?
Or would you say, we need addiction to appreciate non-addiction?
I would say that non-addiction is unknown to the addict (by pure definition).

I am not sure why, but you appear to be stuck on a point (Liberation = Nihilism)
Have you read a lot of Kierkegaard, Nietzsche… if so then this would explain the confusion.
Or maybe, you are trying to extract something from others.
I am not sure and it does not really matter in the end.

No, I’m not stuck on nihilism.
I believe that seeing a Liberation as to achieve immediately places obstacles in the way where none actually exist; you tell yourself that you are not Liberated and are confined and need to move over great obstacles to reach Liberation.

Really, it’s not that hard.
The dog is happy.
He is dumber than man.
He just moves with his nature in relative balance; that is all.

We can’t be that dumb.
Our brains will not typically allow this.
Many try. Very few accomplish it, and even then, it’s not a full human experience to do this.

But we can stop thinking everything is in our way of what we want and just realize that we have everything we could ask for already; it’s just a matter of learning to move with all of it as our life provides and we provide ourselves.

We don’t need to be liberated from our clumsiness to learn to dance.
We just need to learn to move the way dance moves.
That is all.

It’s a matter of perspective, and I find that liberation perspective typically isolates people from ever reaching it from the onset of seeing it as a distant object filled with difficulty to achieve, and it’s also providing of a linear perspective as if one is simply done once they achieve their liberation.
Unless you are dead, you can never be done with the push and pull of life.
It’s not something you can just be done with.
But it’s something you can learn to walk and move on, and you’ll have to relearn constantly as you change and life changes.

By the way Meditation; check your personal messages.