light speed

I’ve been considering one of Einsteins theories, which states as you approach the speed of light, light still travels away from you at a constant rate.

  Lets say there is a laser projector positioned on the earth, aimed at the moon. If I'm in a rocket ship that takes off 1 second after the projector is activated, yet my rocket ship moves at twice the speed of light, how is it that the light will still beat me to the moon?

  I suppose the reason I don't understand this is that I'm thinking logically, when I shouldn't be. Whatever the reason, I'd appreciate if someone were able to clarify this.

Thanks in advance,
Eric.

You cannot travel at twice the speed of light. You can travel at the speed of light, mostly, and to do that you must be - light.

ebburke:

As Sauwelios noted, as far as we know right now, it’s impossible for the velocity of any object to exceed the speed of light.

But the essence of your question is a good one, and it’s based on a common misunderstanding of the simplified model under consideration in special relativity. The theory runs more or less like this: all observers will measure the speed of light to be the same, regardless of what their uniform linear motion is. That is, the speed of light is the same for everyon, everywhere, regardless of their inertial reference frame–which also means: there is no priveleged frame of reference.

But relativity isn’t absolute, as it were; special relativity does not claim to deal with particulate matter or gravitational effects. So when we actually make calculations we need slightly more complicated descriptions: what happens to light during acceleration, for example? And this is where experiments have shown some fascinating results. For example, a moving gravitational field drags light along with it, and light moving through a body’s structure moves faster in the direction of the body’s motion than it does in the opposite direction.

The key thing to remember is that special relativity is just about light and the relativity of our inertial reference frames. Specifically, it makes a few assumptions (i.e., gravity is inconsequential) that maybe aren’t strictly necessary or even wholly accurate, but the theory makes these presumptions for the purposes of clearly exposing a principle which has deep and far-reaching cosmological and physical implications. But remember: this is a internally consistent body of theory with a high degree of predictive success. We just can’t expect it (alone) to answer all our questions about the nature and behavior of light in dynamic physical systems.

I think it’s due to time dilation.

Let’s say you’re moving at 75%c, and light passes you at c, as observed from a third perspective. Obviously, the third perspective measures the light as moving at c.

You might think that you would see the light passing you at only 25%c since you’re moving pretty fast already. However, you’re also slowed in time.

Therefore, when light passes you by, you’re seconds are really long. That makes your measurement come out to c.

The time dilation is balanced just so, such that from your point of view, no matter what speed you go, you’re slowed just the right amount such that the measurement comes out at c.

But then, if this explanation is correct, why wouldn’t your slow rate of time make the light passing you by going the opposite direction (as in a joust) seem to be moving even faster than it normally would? I’m guessing it has something to do with length dilation, and that the formulas are really much more complicated (special relativity) than general relativity provides. Or, maybe I simply don’t understand my Relativity on this point. :slight_smile:

The speed of light can’t be understood as a constant. They use a variable for it in all those relativity equations. The problem is that you can’t observe anything faster than light as your observations are dependent on light. This doesn’t mean that it can’t move faster than you can observe it. They calculate an estimate for it or place it into equations as a variable in order to keep the math consistent.

Wel, the speed of light is defined to be a constant for the purposes of a lot of these equations, in a way not too different from the way the gravitational constant G (representing a coefficient of the force of attraction between two particles) is defined to be 6.67300 × 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2. It turns out that light doesn’t always travels at 300 million meters per second and that it’s speed is in fact dependent to some degree on the medium through which it is passing (light travels faster in water,) just as quantum theory guarantees us that the fundamental force could not always pull with exactly the same force–that the behavior of particulate matter at the subatomic level is much closer to Brownian motion.

Anyway, the point is that you’re right and definitely onto something here: these sorts of “constants” must certainly be considered to act in many respects like random variables (but to be clear: they are not used AS random variables in relativistic equations. They had to be calculated from physical observation and they are called constants precisely because on average they don’t vary much, and in fact most of the time the swirling infinite Brownian chaos cancels itself out leaving us with a nice clean equation, provided we sweep the mess under the carpet with–yep, you guessed it–a brand new constant!

In fact, you can think of just about any scientific or philosophical system moving forward on similar strategic grounds. We define constants provisionally but also by experience, so that they are not completely by chance and yet not also ordered–a strange non-violent co-existence of the same and the Other, between what we know and the Truth. There is a hyper-productive aspect of thought that has much more to do with a free-flowing dance and epic masterful poetry, or perhaps the austere stern perfection of sculpture, than with the meta-narrative ‘prose’ voice in which scientists so often drone on…

/ sorry, i do go on, don’t i?

It’s a valid point that observation pressuposes light, and is thus dependent on its speed… but our capacity is set WAY below light-speed, man. At most, you’re going to be able to distinguish 25-30 pictures per second as distinct before they start blurring together and appear to move. In other words, our observation is in way more trouble than just not being fast enough to catch light moving. (That’s be wild, though, wouldn’t it?) We do have devices that slow down photons, and can serve them up one at a time.

In fact, this is related to the deeper trouble our observation is in–uncertainty. It seems that the very act of conscious observation alters reality. So there’s no truly objective experiment, not even in theory but according to physical theory. This is because there is a fundamental uncertainty at the basis of the operation consciousness performs in the act of observing something.

It seems that by focusing our attention–or even by not focusing it–we cause matter and energy (same thing) to conform to manner in which we are attending to it: it’s particles if you want particles, it’s waves if you want waves. The problem is, they’re not interchangable: it’s like integrals and derivatives–you can go one way and you get further abstraction and more information about the function/energy-set; you go the other way, you lose particularity and along the way you acquire a ‘generalizing constant’ (back to that, huh? Didn’t even plan it.)

But at any rate, we’re not just imposing these rules to keep the math straight: in a weird way, it’s almost like the universe is imposing these rules on us. I mean, there’s a upper bound on what we can hope to perceive about the universe, even in our best theory, that has nothing to do with our intelligence or our measuring tools. This has to do with an eerie sort of quantum interference which is caused by conscious observation.

The universe just seems to have come built this way: by looking at it, we force waveforms to collapse to particulate networks, exert the force of an irreversible determination without even being aware of it…

Iv always been lead to believe that once you reach the speed of light, if at all possible. There is only one thing you can do , once you go faster than speed of light you would end up going back in time. Thus, you would be there before the light was, because your now there before it happend. Understand? I will try to find research on the explanation on time travel through light speed.

We really do not know what would happen to time when an object passes the speed of light. The only thing we have to rely on is the Special Theory of Relativity (Einstein 1905) and according to it time in a moving reference frame (say your space ship) goes slower as compared to a stationary frame (say Earth) the faster you go. In fact the equation that governs this so called time dilation is given below:

So you see when you start off - at zero speed (0% of speed of light) your time is just regular i.e. the time slowing factor (xt) is equal to 1. As you speed up your time runs slower by the factor shown on the y-axis. As you are approaching 100% of the speed of light your time slows more and more until it is infinitely slowed down. (You should realize that everything slows down including your heart beats, your thoughts, etc.) So for an example if your ship goes at 98% of the speed of light and you take a one year journey, when you return to Earth five years have gone by.

This region of speeds below 100% of the speed of light is the region of our regular time or Real Time.

Now say somehow you were able to go faster than the speed of light (i.e. the v in the above equation is now greater than c the speed of light). The equation will then give us a square root of a negative number on the right hand side (which is an imaginary number.) Well I can factor out the imaginary unit number (i or the square root of minus one) and plot the result on the same graph. This region I call Imaginary Time since it is some weird time with an imaginary unit attached to it (so I don’t really know what this time means.)

However you see that time in this imaginary region will speed up from infinity to the regular time speed of 1 and continue speeding up. At 140% or higher speed of light, time slowdown factor is less than one, i.e. time will go faster than in the stationary frame! So for an example if your ship goes at 200% of the speed of light and you take a one year journey, when you return to Earth only about 7 months have gone by. However I need to stress again that this is just a crazy thought experiment which produces some weird imaginary time and has no physical meaning.

I’m guessing you’ve heard of the theoretical Alcubierre drive (or warp engine) that would bend spacetime around the ship in order to achieve faster-than-light propulsion. [Wiki it if you haven’t.] It’s almost certainly bogus, but my point is that we HAVE to throw away some of our hypotheses about the nature of light and gravity if we want FTL space travel.

By the way, DesolateThief, Hawking talks about Imaginary Time in his new book. It’s essentially just a way of looking at time as though it were a dimension of space; i.e., if you could place a temporal axis perpendicular to the ‘normal’ time axis, positions in this two-dimensional time-space would have something like a ‘real’ and an ‘imaginary’ component. The neat thing about this is that this ‘complexified’ way of analyzing spacetime allows us to ‘smooth out’ black holes and other singularities (like the big bang.)

I dont believe that it is possible at this point in time. Im just saying that if it were possible to travel the speed of light, i think that my previous post is what would be the result of an increase of speed if already going the speed of light.
Let me Clarify, I do Not believe that Light Speed is possible for us to attempt.