Lottery corporations' ethical/moral corruption

I’m left somewhat discouraged by the prevalence of fellow human beings who in content conscience procure and indefinitely retain employment involving the exploitation of gambling addicts. While one might expect such disgracefulness from privately-owned casinos, one would expect more ethical conduct from government-owned and operated lotteries and other games, which in B.C. (Canada) comes in the form of the British Columbia Lottery Corporation (BCLC).

Unfortunately, though, BCLC is callously misusing the debilitating weaknesses of their more ‘loyal’ consumers, especially those with obsessive-compulsive tendencies. As for BCLC’s token offers of gambling-addiction withdrawal counselling services as well as their ads’ quite insufficient “Know your limit, play within it” and/or “If you gamble, use your GameSense … 19+”, it all hardly suffices for the significant and often irreparable financial damage done to addicts and their families.

Also playing a significant role in this unfortunate social issue is that BCLC is one of the largest, if not THE largest, advertiser with Greater Vancouver’s four metro-daily newspapers, including the freebee publications Metro and 24 Hours; the latter two dailies, in fact, sell full front and back tabloid-jacket ads to the lottery corporation whenever there’s a large jackpot accumulating, and almost always those lottery-ad-jacketed issues come out as the very well consumed weekend editions. Indeed, it’s hardly a plausible coincidence that a reader won’t see printed in the said four dailies any editorial content critical of questionable BCLC ethical (mis)conduct.

There’s psychological research documentation noting that gambling addicts intentionally, though on a subconscious level, play games of chance until they lose everything. This formidable symptom of a gambling addiction can reach an extreme, one example having been aptly demonstrated in the film Owning Mahowny: The movie is a fact-based account of a former compulsive gambler from Toronto who, as a well-positioned senior banker with the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, embezzled millions from his employer (CIBC then being the second largest bank in Canada) to feed his personal gambling habit at casinos in Las Vegas and Atlantic City. The story’s protagonist gambling-addict banker manages to ‘break’ a casino table thus win its entire funding (for the time being, anyhow) which is typically in the millions) yet could not peel himself away from the casino establishment until he had (frustratingly for me and no doubt many other viewers) lost everything he’d won as well as the mega-money with which he came to town. I’ve been informed that gambling addicts are known for this kind of defeatist behaviour in order to (again subconsciously) feel justified in their post-large-monetary-loss self-flogging of their own psyches.

According to the BCLC’s 2006/2007 annual report, titled “Our Commitment to British Columbia,” the corporation had allocated only 27 percent of all games-played revenue back into prizes won (which includes consolation prize amounts); operations costs received seven percent; 22 percent went to retailers’ sales commissions as well as “casino and bingo service provider companies,” and 0.8 percent was spent on ticket paper and printing. The remaining 43.2 percent went into government ministry social programs. In the BCLC report describing in general the crown corporation’s distribution of gaming revenue for the fiscal year 2012/13, only 24 cents of each revenue dollar went back towards prizes; 41 percent went to “Provincial & Community Programs”, with 33 percentage points of that amount going to health care, education and consolidated revenue and eight percentage points going to ‘host local governments & gaming grants to community organizations’”; 22 percent goes towards commissions and fees for ticket retailers, nine percent for operating expenses and four percent towards “federal taxes for essential government services” (with that latter tax being fairly new, to my knowledge).

As for the actual relatively meagre portion of each dollar going back towards prizes—where revenues ethically and justly foremost belong, contrary to being treated more like an afterthought—all I received was a silent stare from the vendors with whom I talked about the abovementioned revenue-allocation percentage-pie, specifically their seemingly non-informed status when I erroneously stated that 50 percent goes towards prizes. Such ignorance on their part was not at all plausible since as licensed vendors one could safely conclude that they’d have to know that not even half of my mistaken 50-percent figure goes back to all winning ticket payouts. Furthermore, it proved equally elusive for me in acquiring those latest percentage-pie revenue-allocation figures from BCLC staff with whom I talked on the phone; and their website was just as difficult when I tried to access those same allocation amounts, which were tucked away in some tiny corner of BCLC’s own microscopic piece of cyberspace.

Exceptionally discreditable BCLC conduct involved the self-serving “jackpot disentitlement rule” aspect of the formal “voluntary exclusion [request]” which falls under the Gaming Control Act. It enabled both publicly and privately owned gaming entities to withhold sizeable winnings from addicts who had signed onto the ethically inexcusable agreement (presumably since then amended in compliance with the court’s ruling); however, large-profit gaming interests had contradictorily permitted themselves to keep any and all gambling losses suffered by those same addicts who were denied their winnings from the same said large-profit gaming interests. A lawyer representing two plaintiffs who had their large winnings withheld by BCLC, though later ordered by a court to be rightfully handed back over to the plaintiffs, said that he had hoped the ruling would have retroactively ordered all such withheld winnings to be returned to their gambling-addict owners, regardless of the exclusionary agreement. “The lottery corporation had no right to withhold the winnings as a penalty [while] they’re taking both the losings and the winnings.”

Also situated on the spectrum of unethical conduct is BCLC’s relatively insidious negative-option-like Extra!: Whenever a player buys any printer-issued lottery ticket (the most prominent being Lotto MAX and Lotto 6/49) BCLC’s computer grid automatically selects for the player four numbers at random between one and 99, which will always appear on the purchased ticket. Before it does, though, it’s left to the player to either fork over the Extra! one dollar or to decline, which in the latter case the word “NO” is printed instead of “YES” adjacent to those four Extra! numbers, which means the consumer does not receive the $500,000 top prize if his/her unsolicited four numbers are drawn. Common sense strongly suggests that BCLC’s intent decision to force the four Extra! numbers upon every player’s every printed ticket is to create some trepidation in the minds of players who choose to not play the Extra! numbers. By this I mean, when checking their regular ticket numbers, some “NO”-Extra! players brave-it by checking whether any of their ineligible-to-win Extra! numbers had in fact been drawn; and some will do so solely to confirm that they had made the right choice, which the odds do favour that they did, and therefore saved an otherwise wasted buck. For the record, as a consistent No-Extra! sometimes-player of Lotto MAX and 6/49 (i.e. when their jackpots have irresistibly accumulated in size) I, without exception, never compare the drawn Extra! numbers with those four rejected unsolicited numbers on my ticket, for ignorance can often be a necessary bliss.

Then again, perhaps lottery consumers are supposed to be thankful that BCLC didn’t go all out and have their ticket scan-check computer loudly announce to the player that their Extra! numbers (or even just three of them, which is worth $1,000), as chance would have it, were drawn, but to which the consumer unfortunately said “NO”; and in place of the celebratory “We’re in the money!” tune played whenever any prize is won (even just a meagre one dollar prize) the said computer would play Brenda Lee’s 1960 hit song “I’m Sorry”.

As it were, that same (rather depressing) tune as well as its lyrics were effectively utilized by BCLC in television ads broadcasted not that long ago that seemed to stoop to an ethical record low; they incorporated into their mass message the psychology of human fear, one involving devastated regret over missing out on a large prize, all because of one’s own choice of ‘cheapness’.

One version of the TV ads shows a despondent lottery-ticket consumer—unfortunately (or foolishly) aware of the identity of the four Extra! numbers forced upon him via his ticket—so miserable over having “said ‘NO’ to half a million dollars,” that he’d withdrawn to beneath his bed, against the wall in a fetal position, with his very concerned wife futilely attempting to slide to him dinner on a tray. The ads’ message was always crystal clear: If only he/she had only parted with the paltry dollar and said YES to half a million dollars; meanwhile, Brenda Lee’s lyric’s chime in apparent accordance—“I-I-I’m sor-ry, sooo sor-ry, that I-I-I-I waaas such a … ”, with the singing fading into the commercial’s close, just barely excluding the final lyric, “ … fooool” (very likely to avoid crossing too far over the fine PR line). However, it seems that the real “sorry … fool” may be the game player who believes that BCLC plays fairly; for every player has to pay/fund various interests’ outreached hands to the tune of 76 cents of every dollar he pays in order to play—all before he can dream about winning a very small piece of the 24 cents from every dollar paid to BCLC that’s left for all prize payouts.

For those not already familiar, the actual odds of winning anything by playing the Extra!: matching all four Extra!-draw numbers requires an astronomically-low-odds bulls-eye hit of 1-in-3,764,376; the chances of matching three out of four numbers is 1-in-9,906 (for $1,000); you have a 1-in-141chance of matching two numbers (for $10), and one number, 1-in-6.8, nets you naught but your buck back. The overall odds of winning any Extra! prize is 1-in-6.5, which, contrary to still common misinterpretation, doesn’t in the least translate into one out of every six and a half plays purchased wins one of the prize categories. Confusing, yes; but, if anything, that misinterpretation is in BCLC’s best interests.

Also, I regularly find large extravagant scratch-&-win game cards—each costing either $3, $5, $10, or even as much as $20—that are completely unscratched except for their relatively very small barcode area, all tossed into a garbage can immediately adjacent to a ticket self-check barcode scanner at a local convenience store. It’s as though the buyer is in such a rush to procure his gambling fix that he doesn’t bother with the ticket’s just-paid-for game portion, which any non-addict would at least take the time to somehow enjoy. Indeed, one can find at many ticket vendor outlets such scary-looking accumulated examples of gambling addicts’ paper waste products.

As another example of B.C.’s publicly-owned lottery corporation’s exploitation of consumers, especially those predisposed to abusing BCLC’s product, the corporation also offers what I see as betting shops to the most concentrated consumer populated areas of the Greater Vancouver region. They’re locations at which one can mostly find the likes of the average Joe or laborer spending his time—perhaps along with a sizeable chunk of his paycheck—playing the potentially very addictive game of chance called Keno. Every time I walk through the Guildford mall I receive a brief rush of melancholy just by the sight of the jackpot-winner hopefuls standing inside one of these creepy places, staring up at the ceiling-mounted Keno-draw-number VDUs.

Becoming instantly rich by way of a lottery ticket can be a biggest dream realized—a fact plainly taken advantage of for quite some time. This large revenue-producing opportunity, however callous-hearted, was institutionalized in 1985 as the already-mentioned provincial government crown corporation, which owns and operates all officially established mainstream lottery ticket production and sales in this province. Yet even as enticing as is the idea of possibly holding a big-winning lottery ticket, it nevertheless remains a notion with virtually zero chance of attainment, as almost all faithful players already know. For example, the odds of a 6/6-numbers win with the Lotto 6/49 is 1 in 13,983,816—a truism culturally entrenched in the form of expressions and analogies comparing the quantifiably extreme unlikelihood of winning a large jackpot with the also-low odds of other specific occurrences.

Irregardless of this astronomically low chance of winning a jackpot, very many people continue to play on a grand scale. Unfortunately, however, a disproportionately large number of those players are the very folk who can little or least afford the cost of playing—not to mention the poorest OCD-enduring souls who are solidly addicted to the money-pit numbers-bet sport to a no-win-scenario degree. Thus the irony remains bitter, with those needing the money the most making up that demographic sub-segment that typically lose the most money to that bottomless pit.

As for learning what percentage of problem gamblers also suffer mental illness I futilely attempted to do so by contacting both BCLC and the Canadian Mental Health Association (CMHA). Unless one or both of these entities has since then acquired and accumulated such statistics, the lack of accurate figurers reliably revealing what should be considered a pressing social issue instead reveals an apparent lack of serious official attention and action on gambling addiction.


[i]It’s quite rare, if at all, to learn of unethical BCLC marketing practices from reading large metro-daily newspapers; but to actually experience for oneself the plain corruption on the part of that same news-media in regards to its ad-revenue relationship with BCLC was for me unheard of, until I came across its path for myself.

For a very short while The Vancouver Sun used to permit non-carte-blanch-nobody writers to post essays on its website’s Community of Interest section, of course without getting into libelous territory. Apparently there were too many unconventional and, for editorial sake, overly nonconformist perspectives being voiced via the refreshingly true ‘free-press’; for it—with the exception of the almost entirely conventional, conformist carte-blanch-somebody Community of Interest writers—was resultantly destined to be an all too brief opportunity by such average no-name writers like me.

Of a total of eleven essays that I had posted on that Community of Interest website—all of which questioned to a warranted degree societal norms and institutions that are clearly ethically and/or morally corrupt—only one was deleted and re-deleted when I re-posted it a second and third time. It was the only one adequately critical of the British Columbia Lottery Corporation’s lack of humanity on a few different fronts regarding its promotion of gambling for the sole sake of additional revenue.

But be it noted that the BCLC essay was generally nothing more nor less unconventional, controversial or ‘offensive’ than any of my other ten acceptable essay postings.

It took a moment, but it dawned on me: the countless full-page BCLC ads frequenting the broadsheet Vancouver Sun, sometimes twice in the same week, prepped and well paid for by (what a coincidence!) BCLC; indeed it’s one of the, if not the, most prolific advertiser in that newspaper, not to mention its sister metro-daily newspaper The Province.

As for the theoretical though in actuality nonsensical notion of a ‘free press’, apparently they’re about as free as are the full-page ads within.[/i]

Frank G Sterle Jr

Let us protect all from danger and addictions. Let us never let people fight the fight themselves, let us protect them and coddle them. Let us never let them learn how to control. Let us make all things illegal that might cause harm. Let us remove individuality, privacy and intelligence, let us remove experiance. We are a species that is predator and prey as is so many other animals. We cannot evolve by hiding. We cannot evolve by overprotecting.

Giving someone access to heroin wont make them smarter, better, or more free.

I have a partial solution. Where I live, the state of West Virginia, we had always had seedy casinoswas and racetracks, but while I was racetracks deployed in the military 4 years, they went a step over and passed laws opening Casinos in residential houses… I’m not making this up, research it. We call them “Cafe and Mores”… I got back, after the Army, stood in front of a old house I lived in, a casino was across the street from it, and a casino on either end of the block, and the block behind it!

I wasn’t too thrilled, as it was a traditional, blue collar steel mill neighborhood, after the mills shut down. We had been in a economic depression since Bill Clinton destroyed the region, and a larger depression of equal magnitude was falling across the US back in 2008.

So… I put on my philosopher cap, and started thinking about it… and am still thinking about it.

One solution I thought of, was having a state administered program that legal family members or judges can put restrictions on the amount of money a person is allowed to buy in any Casino in the state per month. Everyone entering needs to prove they are 18+ anyway… you run their name through the system… name pops up, they see you have a $100 limit for January to buy chips.

I figure you can’t legally completely shut off a husband with gambling addiction issues, bit if you can get it verified by a counselor they have it, and it’s hurting their marriage, then that should be sufficient to put a hold on how many chips or bets that they set. A state determines what is mental illness, not psychologist, we merely rely on them for diagnosis and treatment… the list of qualified professions and be substantially expanded (with proper training, it’s not hard to diagnose a gambling addict). A spouse going to court over a husband or wife neglecting their family due to a addiction should likewise be able to force a court order under such circumstance. Its not saying absolutely no to gambling, just signalling you have a issue, and the state us limiting the amount of damage you can do to yourself via lawful gambling.

What this entails:

Landline at every casino
Computercasino at every casino
Programmer working for the state, managing a web site only the casinos have access to.
Ability of a webmaster to receive emails, with new lists by the state or family members, saying to limit gambling to X amount (never say zero, casinos will fight you to the death over this legislation if you do.)

Mandate everyone entering into a casino have to check in when playing… see your ID each time you buy tokens, or sit at a card table. Better, everyone is issued a card with a chip (laundrymats do this, don’t tell me a casino can’t) loaded with cash… guys with a problem limited.

You go to a nearby casino expecting to start anew… they will see you already blown your limit, cause you maxed out on the system. If you wanna gamble, go to another state.

Why haven’t I pushed this for legislation yet? My city borders 3 states, only city in North America to do this… we have two counties in my city limits, and a absurd number of casinos per population. Damn near everyone would file for a exemption due to the meager size of their business… and my town is only three miles wide(so is the width of the state here)… most gamblers come from out of state. I would need to get Pa and Oh in on the deal as much as West Virginia, just to ensure ‘locals’ here are treated fairly.

If you drive to shut them down, they will shut you down in turn. I believe the trick is to leave the restrictions open ended and hypothetical, putting the onus on the casinos to come out against a simple, practical plan.

Once this is up and running, I think you’ll find multi state and province compacts across the US folliwing suit, despite initial resistance. Reason why is, most casinos are own buy a handful of guys, who own installations all over. They will hate it at first, but it will ironically remove their main obstacle to claiming their responsible… I think they will double down and actually encourage parallel legislation once they see it works and can claim they do care, have systems in place.

As to Grandma dropping her life savings because she likes bells and whistles, and acts indignant when calked a addict… I can’t help you. I think Canadian law parallels US law enough to know your competent till proven disabled. Best luck is via a spouse, maybe family… but I dunno if a grown adult child can say mom is addicted to a judge and have it pass muster, and best of luck getting her to a counselor for diagnosis if she smells a trap. So it’s a partial solution.

In regards to the Cafe and More fiasco… we have limited new ones from opening save in a trainyard at a former lumberyard. They are solely being weeded out, when some local lawyers andvreal estate businesses who played the market got wind new legislation was coming out… they quickly got out of business… many are grandfathered in, but can’t be successfully sold. The place by the lumberyard is in a old industrial zone, not in a residential area any more, buildings custom built. Its not as bad as it once was… just wish they would wall the place off and close all the ones outside of it… I can tolerate a enclave, but not places spears out everywhere where families live literally next door.

This is a old fashion ice cream stand in a village south to us, a leftover from the 50s:

It now has a casino built behind it, same brand! Look behind it in this picture.

It isn’t a cafe, just state legislation requires all small casinos to have the name “cafe” or “cafe and more” on them… the gambling commission then started threatening real cafes that served tea and coffer with closure if they didn’t change their names!

manta.com/mb_55_C432C7N2_NG2/cafe/weirton_wv

My town has 33 listed “cafes” , with no tables, coffee or tea served in none, just slot machines.

We got a bit more actually… it’s a absurd amount for our population, and we have two large casinos with racetracks within twenty minutes to about a hour drive… most of the former corrupt police from my town work security in one. My area exploded absurdly high… but a big province like BC should have a easier time putting such legislation together. We have more Casinos than some countries do here, it’s it isn’t easy to craft legislation on such a complex scale here.

So as I said, partial solution, but one well worth it.

Do all people drink, smoke, gamble etc? No many avoid these things that are legal. Many that do these things are not harming any but, maybe themselves.
Heroin is not going to be used by most people, the overwhelming majority would avoid it. That type of high is not going to be enjoyable to most just like most hard drugs. The law knows this. The main reason that most hard drugs are illegal is due to taxes and ease of manufacture. The government cannot get its cut. Actually if certified tax paying companies began making safe and inexpensive drugs for recreational use you would see laws change. And still those not using would not begin using just because it is legal. Their children would learn to avoid it as well. It just is not that great of a high.

There are many various slippery slopes in humankind’s existence involving intensely addictive vices; and the slippery slope known as gambling and its addictiveness is a lot more like a vertical pitfall. I looked over my original post, and I cannot find any reference(s) made by me that suggests outlawing all for-profit gambling (if it’s inadvertently implied somewhere, then please disregard such a notion, for it’s simply not a plausible social agenda). Rather, my post is about the significant lack of ethics involved with promotional advertising methodology, in particular those of government lottery corporations. The multiple examples I give should trouble anyone who has a family member currently slipping down the so-called slope or (my choice of metaphor) vertical pit.

It’s overly often claimed that the vast majority of gamblers can handle the vice just fine, but such a claim at best is based upon an unreliably vague if not seriously flawed statistic that holds little meaning: First, such stats are mostly based on whether players FEEL that their rate of gambling—or more relevant, rate of gambling losses sustained—is fiscally problematic for their ‘comfort zone’ or sense of maintained well-being. Again, vague; it’s a relativistic qualification and/or quantification (i.e. dependent on the gambler’s own perceptions, etcetera). There are solid stats, of course, on how many players have been deemed by gambling-addiction professionals and/or counsellors as being certified serious-problem gamblers, as they have clearly defined formidable fiscal and even emotional difficulties, most notably bankruptcy and enforced repayment plans arranged by court-appointed accountants. Official stats may imply or even outright claim that lottery/casino gambling as a whole is basically harmless; but declaring such hardly means that such addictions are not very problematic for those people directly or indirectly involved, and they often desperately need serious addressing.
Thus, unlike with the observable absolute fact that the vast majority of users at this philosophy discussion forum websites go by (for whatever personal reasons) anonymous pseudonyms or partial names, assuming that the vast majority of gamblers can handle it just fine is, at very best, an incomplete picture.

My biggest concern with gambling entities operated as ‘publicly-owned’ corporations is the resultant virtual bottomless pockets the government has when it comes to typically manipulative advertising and the print news-media that greatly need that revenue, especially nowadays with newspaper downsizing in every respect. Specifically, though, what really bothers me is the apparent extensive lengths to which some news-media will compromise themselves in order to avoid offending such huge sources of ad revenue.

As one example, of over a dozen essays that I had posted onto The Vancouver Sun’s community forum website (since removed, less than a decade ago), all of which questioned societal norms to a reasonably non-offensive extent, only a single essay—the one critical of my home province government’s lottery corporation’s in-depth involvement with gambling revenue and the massive amount of newsprint advertising it purchases—was conveniently deleted and without any explanation; and it was re-deleted when I tried to re-post it. It took a few minutes, but it soon enough dawned on me the countless full-page ads that frequent The Vancouver Sun’s broadsheet frame; and now there are also two Greater Vancouver freebee metro-dailies that also receive large amounts of ad revenue, in particular when they on occasion publish an ad in the form of a double-paged newspaper jacket cover. Big bucks indeed!

Apparently you used the wrong media. If it was deleted once, you should try other avenues. We have voting processes make a fuss and get it on a ballot. The governing bodies need to get money somehow. You tax the people too much and people get hurt, lose jobs, homes, etc. a government needs options.

The proof is in the pudding: Las Vegas is properly called the suicide Capitol of the world, and suicide is the absolute proof of the above discussed feature of gambling, vis., that it is a method of self destruct.

It is not merely an obsessional game, but a transposition of unmanageable existential anxiety, involving the subliminal threat of loosing meaning.

The corporations themselves, the state agencies as well, are fully aware of this, and probably rationalize this tendency by perceiving it even as a social service, and maybe even a useful tool in learning self control in the application of limits, and yes, boundaries.

They know that the setting of boundaries is not within the scope of a mere trite telephone conversation with some ‘counselor’, who could perhaps try to mitigate the tremendous sense of guilt arising from significant loss, however, even these people draw salaries from the very losses. The result is, the buildup of another double-talk hiding behind the ‘sincere’ attempt of these pseudo professionals, knowing full well that they need the man on the other side to loose, in order to pay their own bills.

The wide spread growth of a former,y criminal enterprise, who’s the desperation of a failing economy of traditional economic ways of production, and what it literally ‘means’, is that Marx’s dictum of diminishing returns, is basically before everyone’s eyes, the returns of traditional production, have ceased to have much meaning any more, so that, the loss of meaning is transposed, into it’s opposite, the enjoyment of loss. (Of meaning, etc.)

Basically, it is a faux existentialism, which is behind this effort, the hidden meaning of true loss, which justifies the mantra, ‘yes I have lost everything’ yet I am still alive, and I should be happy at least about that. I still have my self, but I have gotten out of my dire boredom, of having to face an irreversible, meaningless world.

Gambling is the last try at social management, and heck, think of it this way, if you have nothing further to loose, the. Why worry about loosing? Of course, there is still something to loose, your mind, but heck,
how else would the mental health industry, the pharmacological businesses survive?

For it is well accepted among professionals, that obsession has another side, depression, and depression is the most common form of mental illness among society as a whole.

So, first create and feed the obsession, further marginalized those living without borders, create anxiety about gambling, then turn that anxiety into a treatable illness.

Obsession of existential loss leads to anxiety, and that anxiety is converted into the depression.
That is how Marx is micro managed.

correction: The flip side of anxiety is depression, but obsession is in the middle, trying to mitigate between both, by conversion.

We could take goverments out of the business of addiction and out of the business of supporting drug like drug like business ideas that lead to regressive taxation.

Sure, we don’t have to make everything cuddly for everyone, but there is no justification for making money off of people abusing themselves.

And further, because people who play the lottery do not quite take their current situations as real, this means that the masses are living, to some degree, in a dream that tomorrow things will be better and not through democratic means, but through luck.

This has bad effects on eveyrone, not just those throwing money at ghosts they should be at something else, but worse not living quite in the real world and thus not helping it.

We don’t need to protect completely, but there is no need to be vampires and there is no reason not to point out the vamipirism.

Turd…stop saying, “Bill Clinton destroyed the region”. It’s the region’s fault for not being properly diversified.

When you offer some booze to someone who has a problem with alcohol you make him stronger.
Well, maybe not him but you definitely help out his social circle and the community he is a part of.
Well, maybe it can be quite destructive and be a dick move.
But, if you get some money out of it then it’s the free market and as we all know the ‘free market’ is good.
Muh free market, muh free will, muh dick.

yes, I think the distribution of narcotics at schools should be part of any public sector business plan. Later the addicted adults, arising from many of these children, will be a source of tax dollars, so we can build roads for the new Coors plant on the edge of town.

Free will and free market are not foolproof recipes and concepts with which to make a society prosper; measured in various ways.
But then this will also apply to the ‘vampiric’ elements in a society, be they big fish or small squids. Neither do they have free will to act and be the way they are in the given society they find themselves in. You are what you are in a given moment in time and like with the drug addict, it’s usually not a lack of reason which compels them to act the way they do.
The story of the frog and the scorpion comes to mind, where both drown at the end.

Maybe it is a lack of reason in part. But more, it’s a combination of lack of reason while also not being able to accept the nature of things.

For me the term free market is either a poor description or a delusional use of language. What gets described as free markets today often means that an international body tells a country that it must stop growing sustenance foods and start growing X export products, often genetically modified, cannot restrict certain products due to health concerns and in other ways undermines even democratic choice, autonomy are free will. These bodies will even use intelligence services and in some cases military intervention to achieve their goals. Supposedly free markets are always embedded in infrastructures, legal and politic that very specifically restrict freedom - I mean, even with potentially neutral processes like contract law - in a variety of forms, some rather pernicious. The term ‘free’ seems to mean whatever the advocate of the moment wants it to mean in some limited focus on freedom as part of the marketing of the free market that is not free.

Yes, these are often even more machinelike. The family cannot get together and have an intervention with a corporation. The board will lock them out of the boardroom. Government entities likewise, though they must pretend a bit more, and less professionally, that they are listening to their constituants.

Reason rides on top and gets used. (not making an analogy directly to the two animals) People retroactively reason in support of their natures.

So where do we insert the critique. One can say that the poor little citizens are responsible for what they are doing so we shouldn’t worry. When we raise the level of critique and say a state, for example, should not set up what will necessarily become a regressive tax on the working poor and poor in general, mainly, especially since this tax will also be ennervating in relation to good social change, we can now say that the state apparatus is not really free and is addicted. So then someone defends the state, not in this way, but by saying the poor are responsible for their choice so what the state is doing is fine, if we aim critique at them, then we are attcking yet another addicted party, supposedly.

But then, I may be addicted to mentioning the truth, so there is no reason for me to stop. And unlike the Scorpion I can swim.

Of course you aren’t free either and cannot help but point out what you did.

Or, there is a tiny bit of slack in all or most addictions. If I am talking to a working poor friend who plays the lottery I may say one thing. If I am voting or talking to my representative or engaging in political debate I may say another from the same position on the lottery. In a philosophical forum I may challenge the implicit defenders of the vampiritic organizations. The slack is small, and machine like processes and inability to learn are endemic, but it is not binary: free vs. unfree. Some poeple quite. Some societies quit certain processes they are addicted to. Some people stop defending pernicious activities. It’s rare, but it happens.

That everyone and everything is addicted could mean one should not critique, but actually it means you can do anything you want and blame your nature.

The idea is that in a free market, a market without governmental interference, the material well-being on average rises because the free market provides information on what to buy and sell and where to buy and sell and what and where to produce for who, better and quicker than any sort of (centrally) planned economy ever could.

But (social) life is not just about buying and selling goods to strangers I don’t care about.
For such rather autistic kinds of people they will have to invent technologies to push for total social alienation where social interaction is reduced from being a necessity for a successful life to a free lifestyle choice.
And as it looks to me all this social liberation and economic liberation is being destructive to Western societies. The one side says it’s because of not enough social liberation but too much economic liberty. The other side says or said that it’s because of too much social liberty and says, still says, also because of not enough economic liberty. - The question being what ails the country.

And by now it’s not about granting liberties anyway anymore, it’s about stopping people from setting up their own limitations and their own discriminative rules when interacting with other people. - See the gay wedding cake incident.

Increasing levels of oppression are inevitable because different kinds of people want different kinds of social environments and that includes social policies which are infringing on personal liberties of other kinds of people.
When you make social life trying to appease the lowest common denominator then you will find piggish behaviour which is being tolerated by law and which is then being tolerated by the less piggish people via social retreat from the more open venues.

A murder happened and the murderer did what he did and had no free will in that moment. I don’t have to blame, even I should not blame the murderer for being himself but I can still do things about it.
A society which sets up punishments for certain acts is still creating incentives for its citizens. The murderer did his murders not just because he was born with his particular genetics but he also did it because of his upbringing, because of the particular circumstances and the particular social norms and laws in place.
They all were part of what led to that action in that moment. And a society punishing or removing the individual from society is still perfectly justified in doing so.

But actually, this kind of thinking you just alluded to is why the conservative Christians got convinced about homosexuality not being a sinful (morally evil) thing.
They were told that those homosexuals were born that way (which is largely true in my view and understanding of being born with biological potentials) and well, if they are born that way then they can’t be morally wrong in doing what they do, or so the reasoning.

Well no, just because a murderer was born with a certain sets of genetics and there is no free will doesn’t mean I have to accept that murderer’s murder.
Same goes for a homosexuals as well in my view. What I want to point out here is how the idea of free will as the focal point of moral judgement of someone can be abused to justify anything. You just have to say someone was born a pedophile, well, what you gonna do. Can’t judge him as morally reprehensible now anymore, no?

It is like a mimetic attack vector.

I have read your dialogue. Little to no mention of family responsibility, none of friend responsibility. Slippery slope is losing family and friend influence and support because big brother government declares any wrong done must be reported. Addiction can cause criminal behavior but, more often than not , it does not. Gambling can be an addiction that could cause crime. Is that enough reason?

Governments are running lotteries. They could stop that.
Right from the starting gate I am saying that states should get out of the business of RUNNING LOTTERIES.
At that level it has nothing to do with what friends should be doing. Why are governments running lotteries?

Second, I am always going to react to what the powerful are doing first. Because if the powerful stop doing pernicious things, it makes it easier at less powerful levels.

I am not taking the slightest responsibility away from anyone at lower levels. Brothers can still challege brothers.

I don’t think I mentioned bringing goverment in to eliminate lotteries. I just said they were terrible. The only thing I want governments to do IS TO STOP RUNNING LOTTERIES.

If the government were pimping out women, I could focus on the johns. I could say the johns should stop putting their money into this use of women.
Or I could say 1) prostitution sucks and 2) the governments should get out of the business of prostitution.
If I say this and someone says, the men who use the prostitutes should abstain, why are you demanding big brother take care of everything,
I will repeat that I want the government NOT TO BE A PIMP.

If private pimps are operating I will call them pimps. I will say they are vampires. I will walk away from them at parties and not consider them to have real jobs.

But I haven’t even gotten to that point…

Do you think governments should BE RUNNING LOTTERIES, which end up being a regressive tax on the poor?
Can we not call those organizations parasitic and corrupt without necessarily making it illegal to run a lottery for private corps?
If

Sure, though any large powerful organization restricts freedom and takes power, not just governments. Once you free the corporations and not longer allow the taking back of their charters, grant them corporate personhood, allow lobbying and do not reform campaign finance, enormous reductions of freedom take place and, after a while, these come down into markets, as all smaller companies and entrepreneurs are absorbed or pushed out. Then in relation to other countries, the nations get controlled by the private sector almost immediatly. So yes, you end up with the freedom to choose between Nike and Addidas. And you will have the freedom to choose a low paying job or nothing. And you will get to send your sons to war at corporate behest or send them to Canada and hope for the best. The freedom will be held primarily at a non-personal level except for an elite. And the market for information about what is going on - new media, journalist, etc. - will also be less free, since it will be controlled by fewer and fewer players who share less and less with most people.

This does not mean I support this or that legislative approach to controlling markets. I am just pointing out the lie in ‘free’. It sounds nice, but what does it mean. And why does it cost so much to do what these free corporations want our military to do, for example. The corps tax us, they just do it through their proxy.

Blame is a just as likely to be determined at murdering, if not more so, since it requires merely a reaction with out physical steps. So once we accept murder as determined we must accept blame in return as also determined and complaining about the blame is getting silly. If one really wants to say that blaming the blamers is determined, fine, but I think that gets kind of embarrassing.

To me its not a bad argument just an incomplete one. If you were born a certain way and it leads to victims if you act on it, control yourself or we will. If there are no victims, no need to control the nature. And in the homosexual case it is a specific argument in response to Christian justification for hatred, judgment, laws aimed at homosexuals. One does not have to have a whole consistent position when countering a specific argument. If they say X is so because of B, you can justifiably say. Well, there is no B. This does not mean that you are also arguing we should always use B as a criterion/justification or never use it. You are simply countering a specific justification on the Christian’s part.

‘I should not blame’ is something I find to be good because it makes it more likely to accept the nature of someone or something. And here, blame is not about establishing the facts, like this woman murdered that woman, but about expecting the murderer to not have done it, blaming the murderer for being what she is. Which is again tied to the idea of free will and also guilt, a certain kind and understanding of guilt.

(Exclusive) Victim psychology does not appeal to me, not on an individual and not on a social level. But going along with the victim angle, this ‘everything goes as long as nobody gets victimised’ hinges on what constitutes the victims. ‘Hate speech’ is what?
Faggots hate heterosexuals much, much more than heterosexuals hate faggots, no? Maybe, maybe not (actually they do) but let’s operate under the assumption that it’s the other way around without questioning it. Feels better, for all those cat ladies who make up 90% and do god’s social-progress work in the faggot movement.
Once it is established who are the victims and who are the abusers and it is emotionally tied down in the mind, people will always find reasons to champion their choice of victim.