Look at it this way;
Based on that response (and others), even if I loved you, I could never trust you. 
In loving you, I would watch out for you, but due to the trust issue, it must always be at a distance. 
Thus the degree of loved capable of being expressed is hampered by distrust. 
But the amount of Love present, is untainted. [-o<
Trust only opens a door to the heart, to Love. It isn’t a prerequisite. 
I’ll get back to you on that.
But it sounds as though you have trust issues. 
Re-read it.
And what do you mean, based on that response and others?
I’m here to learn. 
Of merely more of what you already see? 
Or of what you have never seen before? 
As learning is also a process, a journey, I would definitely say BOTH!!!
Truth to tell, that ‘more of what I already see’ may be a misperception. So not just more of what I already see, but that I may come to see that what I think I am seeing is not so totally real so that I may see it more clearly defined.
And perhaps that is what You just said above - but may not have been actually including it in your thinking. 
Mr. Saint,
What is it about the above response that would create distrust in you toward me – well, we’re speaking globally here, not about you and me. I re-read it twice and just can’t see it. Granted, when someone we love has issues of trust, the relationship can be more difficult and sadly sometimes it will be destroyed. But I think it takes a human being who has a really strong will and a lot of loving energy within them and knowledge of him/her self to stick it out with someone and I suppose it all comes down to how much value they see in the other and in the relationship.
But if the other does try to examine those trust issues - tries to see/understand what their origin is – what event/trauma (because there usually is one) might be responsible for them (that is, barring, of course, the usual and real tell-tale signs and evidence of cheating) …then, especially with the loved one’s help ( after all, what is a relationship about if not ALSO helping each other over hurdles and growing together) …the other can learn to transcend that distrust and can learn to be more open and less closed off, feel freer and trust.
But aside from that, and not to presume/assume, IF you are referring to a lack of trust bringing the partner to cheat, as a result of the suspicions/fear of loss or being hurt, the lack of trust does not necessarily presuppose that the partner will cheat. Many do, sure, but there are others who still have the capacity to remain faithful out of love, because they do love and have integrity. No human being is so totally whole, but we all have/see different aspects of our selves which we would never compromise…especially if we love. You might say “Well, if you can’t trust, you can’t love”, but then that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater but love does dictate that we do everything in our power to learn to trust.
“At a distance”, at least to me, implies emotional unavailability and perhaps, as I said before, a lack of trust. When one fully trusts, isn’t one fully open to the other. People who trust have the ability to take risks, no matter what the outcome. Or do you not see it that way? The greatest risk to someone who has a problem with trust is pain and loss, since they’ve learned experienced it before and that is what is at their very core. But one who is fully open to anything and everything that life can bring doesn’t share that. They are aware of the risks but go into them openly – knowing that pain and loss are a part of life, and they are willing to risk that because otherwise – look what is really lost or not known.
If love senses hampering and pulls back, is not that a form of being ‘tainted’?
If I’m not mistaken, by this statement you have just proven everything that I’ve said above, in a lop-sided way perhaps. Am I wrong? 
Thank you, Mr. Saint.
Need you ask?
If you had a son, for example, who felt that he knew everything about how to take care of a car, but you felt otherwise, would you trust him to take care of your car? Probably not (assuming you had a choice). You would feel/think that he didn’t understand how much he didn’t really know, but was merely willing to tinker because he was falsely confident.
False confidence leads to disasters. When a woman is confident that “nothing could go wrong” in her relationship, one must be suspicious that she doesn’t understand how easily things can go wrong despite all of her good intentions and expectations. Whether she could be trusted in such a relationship would entirely depend on what she actually really did know about how to care for the relationship. The same would be true of any man.
Most relationships are destroyed because one or both of the people involved had no clue as to what it would take to protect the relationship. It happens everyday.
When any woman tells me that she loves me, I immediately think, “maybe, but for how long?” I can usually predict what small incident would be enough to bring it all crashing down, but she can’t. And because she doesn’t understand what small things could destroy her love, I can’t trust that she would maintain that love. That is why women get hysterical about men looking at other women and men get upset when other guys look at their women. Natural people detect the dangers that are not being handled sufficiently for their trust limit.
Didn’t I hear somewhere or other that ‘pride goeth before the fall’?
Is it arrogance or confidence on your side.
How old is this son? Lol
Well, perhaps I would help him to realize what he did know, and as for the rest, I would teach him, guide him because obviously he was wanting to learn and he had the confidence to know that he knew at least ‘something’. Would you burst his little bubble for him? Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
It may sure.
and so does not confidence.
You know, a really strong relationship though is NOT that easy to destroy.
But are we talking about trust here or what? What you write above might be the other side of trust … arrogance or blind faith. Trust really is not taking something for granted…it is just seeing what is, sort of like what ‘respect’ is. Respect sees and understands, or at least tries to, the relationship for what it actually is in all of its manifestations…with all of its nuances, its ebbs and its flows and as a result of that, it cherishes and protects. There IS a difference between confidence and arrogance. But trust in a relationship is sort of like real self-confidence, because one knows and understands what they truly have and what needs to be done to nurture and protect that. What you seem to be describing is more ‘possessiveness’ than actual love and caring.
This is true and this is where real communication comes in, don’t you think? There’s more to a relationship than just sitting together in front of the tv, lol. So next time, Mr. Saint, turn off the tv and go for a walk with her and tell her what your needs are and ask her what her needs are.
Perhaps there was no real commitment there in the first place. IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO…and that dance is hard work.
Trust issue there, I see.
Aside from that, what we perceive we just may make happen. Next time a woman tells you that she loves you just go with the flow of it. And think – I HAVE A WINNER. After all, Mr. Saint, you are really good at that kind of confidence aren’t you…or is it arrogance?
Have you been reminding her of just what that would be from the very beginning? 
You know, that does sort of defeat the purpose. And I bet you had it in your mind the whole time, didn’t you, since you met her?
So then, maybe what you have to do is to help her to understand what is important to you. COMMUNICATION is paramount. And if you are important to her, she will listen to that. We need to be told ore reminded before we can know and understand. And if she appears to not care, and doesn’t care, you let it alone. The universe has given you your answer. As difficult as it may be to accept.
Not all women do. 
Again, sort of like possession. We do not own our loved ones though I think it’s human to want to… Men and women need to teach each other that looking does not imply cheating or wanting to. Hey, if I can look at the beautiful stars in the sky, I can look at a beautiful face in a man. Beauty is beauty. But the man needs to understand that he is the only one for a woman…and a woman needs to understand that from a man. And the way in which that happens, from my way of thinking, is the everyday little things in which a man and woman treat one another. It isn’t just the big things. And we all need to be told sometimes.
Some men, thinking logically, might figure if other men are looking at their woman it is because she is attractive. After all, he chose her, right? But it is of course the way in which…
And if a man or a woman is a bit insecure…then a little respect and caring for their feelings would be in order. After all, what they have in front of them is so much greater than stealing a look at something else…unless it’s the stars perhaps. And they can look at them together. Might help the relationship. Lol
What kind of a thread on love is this evolving into, I’d like to know.
Arrogance is about presumed importance.
When have I ever proclaimed that anything I do, say, or believe is important for anyone else to accept?
One about how to Love. 
- Understand what Love is.
- Understand that it requires attention and maintenance.
- What specific maintenance is required.
- One must detect when such maintenance is possible.
- How to ensure the exact maintenance required such that the Love never dies.
It is an issue of Loving the Love itself as well as the other person.
[quote=“James S Saint”]
- Understand what Love is.
- Understand that it requires attention and maintenance.
- What specific maintenance is required?
- One must detect when such maintenance is possible.
- How to ensure the exact maintenance required such that the Love never dies.
AN ALTERNATE VIEW
- LOVE does not lend itself to intellectual comprehension, It can be wholly known only by the Heart that experiences it.
- It does not require maintenance, relationships do, but Love increases itself through attention. Love calls to Love, and those who answer MUST’VE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION, else how’d they hear the call?
- The only maintenance required is NURTURE. We do this by paying attention.
- Love, itself, is effortless and ever effervescent. Maintenance is always possible, because Love has the ability to go with us wherever we go.
- Love is Eternal, even those who have not known it’s fullness are yet drawn to it, as these discources prove. And long after we are dead and burried, Love will remain, and so will the desire to seek her.
I meant that last question rhetorically…there was no real meaning in it. I’ll get back to you.
BUT - of course there actually can be meaning in it…being that we are about what you say.
Mr. Saint and June 
I suppose the best way to respond to this is by including both.
- I do not agree with this, June. The more light that is shed on love, the understanding of it, the more we are able to learn to love, in the right way. The learning of it does not negate the experience of it. If you knew nothing of the moon whatsoever and then learned much about it, couldn’t/wouldn’t the amazing experience of it enveloped in the night sky the next time you looked add to that experience? Love really is a mystery and will remain a mystery no matter how we attempt to define it or dissect it – but still we come closer to the truth of it and maybe even more importantly, the truth of what it is not, by attempting to peer into that mystery…unveiling it.
For someone to be loved, do you not need more knowledge and understanding of that person? Otherwise, what do you think you are loving?
-
That’s just semantics. Love is a relationship and as such requires a lot of attention, attention in itself also being a question of discernment and quality.
They heard the call because they were open to it, ready for it, desiring it. -
Yes, nurture is important and that’s also vague too. Again, paying attention is important but there is also the sharing and the communication, the letting down of boundaries and allowing the other to see us in our fragility and vulnerability. If we only love what is strong, we don’t love but at the same time remaining individuals, which is part of that. Doing things together which would help cement the relationship – laughing together, sharing time and events that cause joy/happiness/bliss.
4.Love is not effortless – well the experience and the emotion in the moment may appear to be effortless, and it IS wonderful and effervescent and fulfilling. But many people only think of THAT as being love and when it fizzles out because familiarity and a lack of rareness takes over and one or the other begins to become restless – then they are very often on the last leg of their journey. But that’s the moment when real love can take over
and may or may not be seen. It all depends on the value that you place on another human being – unless the value is simply on the feeling of those emotions all of the time and the wonderful way in which our brain chemistry makes us feel.
Isn’t it time and loving attention and mindfulness that detects what maintenance is possible, the sharing and the getting to know one another? The more people do this with one another, one begins to be able to detect those subtle changes. And when it is shown that ‘maintenance’ nurturing/attention/honestly/confrontation is necessary, courage and gentleness and understanding and compassion is important.
- I don’t know if Love is eternal because I do not know if there is an eternity. But I do feel that Love is a far greater and more forceful energy than is hate. Has love evolved through evolution or did it always permeate existence from the first moment that energy burst through and existence took its first breath?
I am not so sure that we can ‘ensure’ that love will never die. Relationships die but the only way to ensure that love doesn’t is to remain open and realize that life is full of possibilities and not to close ourselves off thinking that we had our one and only chance and that he/she was it. Whether or not love is actually eternal – at least while we are here, Love is and if we allow it breathing room, it can and WILL find us again.
It is by one’s perception of a person, that one comes to love that person.
If the perception changes too much, so does the love.
The challenge to maintaining Love;
“Maintain the essential perception involved.”
But now, by what means can one maintain such a perception?
The female notably attempts to present herself in a visually appealing and willing manner.
The male notably attempts to present himself in a worthy and interested manner.
These are the perceptions that brought the love. But Love can and does exceed merely the first perceptions, yet it always depends upon what is perceived. With time, new characteristics are perceived and the love grows or fades accordingly.
The essential component of the love depends on what it is that one loves about the other. Thus to protect the love, one must protect not only their perception of the other person, but also protect which characteristics they love about anyone.
Thus Love depends on the stability of what is loved and the perceptions of who is loved.
But perception changes with information, illness, fatigue, frustration, and situation. Stabilize all of those, and you have stabilized the Love. What is the likelihood?
An all too real example;
A wife is on the Internet and “meets” a guy who is all too lovable (whether real or imagined). In the stress of her real life, she perceives a hope “on the other side of the fence” far away.
The Perception of Hope and Threat.
When the stress gets too high and the hope is too tempting, guess what she does. What does the gas in a balloon do when the nozzle is opened? It leaves the confinement of the scene.
But she cannot merely pick-up and leave without feeling guilt. So what does she do?
She wouldn’t feel guilty if she had a “good reason” to leave. She focuses on all of the possible reasons to leave to see if they will add up. She changes her focus from his good qualities to his bad qualities and soon sees nothing else. Her perception has changed. She sees nothing but a man oppressing her, abusing her, and causing all of her stress. She soon knows nothing but the stress that was once only a portion of her life.
She doesn’t merely leave. She justifies her leaving with hatred, accusations, and loathing. He responds to the life of a man living with a woman who loathes him.
What was at one time the love that brought them together became hatred and loathing, divorce, incriminations, and despise.
The same also happens for any husband. It happens in like manner with children and parents. It happens to all relationships and loves if it is allowed.
So what? She is never permitted to be on the Internet? She is confined to her quarters? She is expected to deny the reality of Perceived Hopes and Threats, the very nature of all living things? A prisoner?
If you Love her, set her free?
Is that really the fate of all “true Loves”?
The what? Is this applicable outside of Disney films?
Relationships require maintenance, but it is not an exact science. Love is not something so conditional, in my opinion. Relationships are built and maintained, whereas love is more a realization or insight that impacts the whole of one’s perspective. Relationships condition and refine what love creates.
Like whoever said it, you cannot desire what you love and love what you desire.
So, you’ll keep on putting love apart.
Would a Reese’s peanut butter cup be as tasty without the chocolate…
…or without the peanut butter?
I think they are more tasty without the distance between us.
But why are you so ?
Define ‘distance’ and define ‘us’.
Geographic or emotional?
Personal or global/universal?
I responded to sonnen as such because he seems to think that love and desire are mutually exclusive.
They may be but NOT necessarily. In the case where there is only desire or sexual compulsion and where there is no true caring/love, you cannot love what you desire though some may try to ‘convince’ him/her -self that they do.
There is that agape love where it may be important to (consciously) suppress one’s sexual urges or to hold them as meaningless in light of the nature of the relationship or …where there are no sexual urges.
There is also the Love which encompasses many emotions, including the sexual desire…it enhances it. Love is not sublimated by nor does it sublimate sexual desire (except as above). Of course, I am only speaking here in the case of two consensual adults WHO ARE NOT RELATED.