Does anyone have any ideas of how the martial arts relate to philosophy?
read bodhidharma , the founder of kung fu for shaolin
REad Bruce lee, the philosopher who founded Jeet Kune Do
dan,
Tao de Jeet Kune Do is more of a philosophy of combat than an exact methodological system.
To answer the question of the thread:
Martial Arts, all forms, all styles were formed from the basis Bodhidharma’s yoga exercises … for health and longevity. The Shaolin monks developed them into empty hand combat systems at a later date.
All carry basics forms of Eastern philosophical thought, some more prominently than others. Required reading would be Buddhism, Zen, Shinto, Tao, Demuguchi … for starters. They can then be expounded further through differing schools of thought and historical turns of such.
Fundamentally, you cannot separate the arts from the founding philosophical premises.
The following link is to a page that has the complete Tao Te Ching:
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html
The old story, probably false, is that Laotse was a wandering ascetic who met a guard at an exit at the Great Wall before leaving China forever. The guard wanted to know Laotse’s philosophy, so Laotse took a few hours to write down the Tao Te Ching. The guard then read the book and left with Laotse. Both were never seen again.
The exact dates of Laotse’s birth and death are not known, but some authorities place his birth at around 600 B.C.E. He may have written under the name Li Erh because he was humble and self-effacing, not one to want his true identity known. Perhaps this person did have some thoughts which were included in the Tao Te Ching, but most scholars now think this book was a compilation which grew into its present shape.
There are also many differing translations of this text into English. Even in its original language, Chinese, the Tao Te Ching is paradoxical and difficult to understand. It is written in such a way as to make one unravel the meanings. And, in some cases, it says that the meaning cannot be put into words.
The “Tao” has been translated as the “Path” or “Way,” but it could also mean “underlaying principle” or “God.” Some people say it means “dharma,” the teachings or duties as Hindus describe it. The first passage in the Tao Te Ching states the following:
This is very compatible with Buddhism and existentialism. It speaks of nothingness as if nothingness is a useful something. Check out the following passage:
This is almost like what Sartre said when he said nothingness is the hole that makes the doughnut possible.
The Tao Te Ching also talks about the Yin and Yang that westerners associate with Chinese philosophy. The Yin is the soft or feminine side that is always opposed to the hard or male side, the Yang. But there is a little Yin in the Yang and a little Yang in the Yin. Judo makes use of this by being strong in a “gentle way,” using an opponent’s force against him or her. Force has weakness, and suppleness has strength. If someone comes at me, I can move out of the way and pull or push my attacker in the same direction he or she wants to go, thus using my opponent’s force to propel him or her off balance to fall and not be a danger to me. Water is very supple, but in encompasses that which is hard. So soft overcomes hard, and he who shows his power is without power. There is wisdom in this.
The Tao Te Ching also speaks of Ch’i, an energy that runs through things, but some people define it as “essence” or “life force.” Some call it the “spirit.” One tries to tap into this by using yoga, and the Judo practitioner tries to find it in focusing on a motion. The judo practitioner yells out a Kia, which focuses power. It should come at just the climax of the throw or maneuver to give one extra strength. When one tries to find one’s center of balance, in a normal stance, it is just below one’s navel. From here, we project out.
So, we can think of the Tao Te Ching as “the way and its power,” keeping in mind that it really means so much more which words are not meant to describe.
bis bald,
Nick
I have read about Daoism and Buddhism extensively, and I’ve read Bruce Lee’s books, and also a documentary about his philosophy.
What I meant was that I don’t see any direct correlation between the practice of martial arts and the insights provided by introspective philosophical inquiry, nor do I see any way in which the martial arts truly “express oneself honestly” as Bruce Lee once put forth, nor do I see how it can express anything other than the dialectic desires to harm or protect through physical combative motions.
Sorry for the confusion.
No offense Apollo, but then you know nothing of the arts.
I have been a practitioner of Aizu Takeda Aikijujutsu for many years: the root foundation of the art resides within my character, and my willingness to reformulate my character in perspective of the Bushido Shoshinshu … Treatise on the Way of the Warrior.
I have been a practitioner of Moy Yat Vtin Tsun for almost a decade, the art is entirely based off of my perception of self-entity and composure based upon character. If I am weak, then my art fails me of my own weakness.
Once again, I am forced to invoke the noble Satyr:
Know Thyself.
This is the foundation, mentally, physically, spiritually; at the core of every Martial system, without which, it is an utter failure … like most of the practitioners in the Western world.
P.S. anyone can read anything, that is trivial and banal. To live within a philosophical system, and reject the abject standards of a society built on conformity to the nadir … is altogether different. This is the failure to understand.
I can study a driver’s manual, but it doesn’t mean I know how to drive if I’ve never actually experienced driving.
Apollo, have you ever taken Judo or Karate or any Martial Art at an established Dojo?
bis bald,
Nick
No, I haven’t, and I think I see what you mean now. Thanks for clearing it up.
Apollo,
I’d say Martial arts relate to philosophy because of the participants involved… for whatever reasons. Hit one too many times, one might discover enlightenment and proceed to mutter something mysterious like,
‘be the water
be nimble
be fluid
be the water’
As you can see, this sounds more poetic, or rather Philosophically poetic, than, ‘when someone strikes at you, Duck.’
That you simply perceive martial art systems as combative desires designed to harm or protect, not much more can be uttered. That whole exploring of balance, energy, and the mysterious stuff of life would be all to moot.
I guess what I meant was, is there any philosophical truth that one can perceive from martial arts that one cannot perceive in the same amount of time, if not faster, with introspection?
I must be obfuscating the issue with ambiguous language. It is really a rather simply point.
To understand completely a Martial system, one must completely understand one’s self - physical, mental and spiritual.
If you are asking if there are other methods, well of course there are … it is just, as always, a matter of choice.
I chose Aikijujutsu for its’ brutality. To be a practitioner of such requires honesty… more with one’s deficiencies than attributes. It requires humility, because you may end up in a class like mine, where the harshest practitioner is a five foot one inch mother of three … who can and will continually toss you like limp salad … and then smile gleefully about having done it.
It requires intense study, because many of the best techniques are lost or given up to antiquity. It requires honesty with the art itself, in understanding you must make it a living system, or it becomes effete and vapid.
A person can choose whatever philosophical direction that they are aware of, but none are quicker than others … it just depends upon whether or not they accentuate your attributes or deficiencies. That is where knowledge comes into play, and prudence of making choices that are beneficial to your goals.
I think the lessons from Judo, the gentle way, can also apply to many other things in life. There times when one must bend, like grass in the wind, to pop back up after the storm, rather than resist like the oak that breaks. There are times when one must have a calm and aware mind, like the smooth surface of a pond which reflects its surroundings, rather than distracted, as when a pebble is tossed in to the pond to cause ripples which disturb the images it reflects. As Bruce Lee said, “It’s like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you’ll miss all that heavenly glory.”
bis bald,
Nick
Hi apollo,
When you speak of martial arts, do you refer to the MAs that claimed origins from the shaolin temple, or the budo of japan, and not any fighting arts in the world?
Raul
Raul,
All Martial Arts are descendant of TaiQiQuan, all of them.
Budo, Bushido … is the Japanese interpretation … Chinese Southern Kempo, became Karate. Tsin Na became Aikijujutsu, which was the precursor to Judo, jujutsu being a lay form of Aikijujutsu, and much later came Aikido.
Even the Phillipine arts, were first from a Xaolin master. They all evolved over time to incorporate culture, philosophy, and practices from regional separation.
You know its a myth, there were fighters/soldiers before there were warrior monks. And there are martial arts all over the world which can’t possibly be influenced or taught by wandering/fleeing shaolin monks. But I can accept that all martial arts with buddhist/taoist moral undertones possibly originated from the shaolin temple.
Budo came after the war so I presumed it was a reaction.
Only Funakoshi’s version of karate. There were indigenous forms of fighting methods in okinawa.
Chin na’s method is to capture and control while aikujujutsu’s main method is efficient destruction using aiki and leverage.
Judo was a product of kano’s study of many koryu jujutsu except aikijujutsu.
There were other forms of jujutsu aside from Aizu/Takeda Aikijujutsu.
Aikido’s ethical motivation differs greatly from aikijujutsu that it totally transformed aikjujutsu’s methods making aikido a new martial art.
This can only be said to kuntao and not all Filipino martial arts.
God I hate blatant ignorance.
Strange that for a myth, the Xaolin monasteries in the south have records of the exodus.
Came after what war? The precepts of the Samurai, which were the most prevasive in Japanese history, started fifteen hundred years ago.
Nope. Kempo existed in form four hundred years before this Sensei, and went through the moderations and evolution to become Karate.
DEAD WRONG. Heiho-jutsu is one of the most ancient aspects of Aikijujutsu, and is completely concerned with capture, submission control and tieing techniques.
DEAD WRONG again. Shiro Saigo was the primary reason that Judo ever had a chance, and Kano’s techniques prior to Saigo joining him were dismissed as ineffective and effete. Shiro Saigo was an adopted child of Tanomo Saigo, then head of Aizu Takeda, (later Daito-Ryu) Aikijujutsu.
As a matter of historical fact, Shiro made Kano famous with one of the most ancient Daito Ryu techniques, Yama Arashi, Mountain Storm projection.
True, Aizu Takeda is the only (mostly) complete system still surviving. But jujutsu is an offshoot, not an independent art.
Aikido is fundamentally a religion, and not a true art. After his utter disrespect, and refusal to face Sokaku Takeda, and the effects of the war, Ueshiba went religious, and softened Aikijujutsu into religious Aikido.
History isn’t overly clear here, so we’ll just have to disagree.
Hate… no good!
To where? Coney island?
WW 2.
And now even the way of the samurai came from tai chi too huh?! 
Nope, it started with mitose.
There’s no such thing as heiho-jutsu. Torae waza was the term.
Shiro Saigo was aikijutsu, Kano and his Judo was not.
It’s extinct man. Even sokaku takeda taught only the jujutsu part of the system.
Every major weapon art had jujutsu as a sub-system. It was not exclusive to takeda clan.
You’re kidding, aren’t you.
This is a slander against O-sensei… Burn incense and Ask for forgiveness.
See the arts for yourself… study them, practice them… and you won’t need to read histories. Every lines delineated will be clear to you.
uh…
This is a martial arts & philosophy thread…
Not a martial thread…
Calm down, you guys.
Thanks Apollo,
I needed that.
In philosophy , one can believe anything he wants to believe.
In buddhisim, the branch of all martial arts sprang from, one does not believe in anything.
Buddha Siddhartha said, " Look at these people following this old man, who has not attained nirvana. These students will eventually will grow old and will not attain nirvana. "
You can either believe somebody who is a nobody. Or you can believe who is a somebody, and become a somebody.
end of discussion