matter manifests out of nothing

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21

death awaits:

Perhaps it is because we refuse to see our own imperfections – we deny them. Arrogance, yes, fear and laziness also perhaps because we just do not want to see things as they really are.

The question would be to ask ourselves why is that? I can see that it is a form of attachment and again, are we viewing things as they are, or for what purpose do we need to have this attachment? is it simply an honest connection and view of someone or to fill a hole we see within our own self. Is it perhaps because we are unable to also see the positive things within us, if that is so. Many people have less trouble with seeing the negative within themselves than they do the positive. This is also ego – if we do not have the humility to view ourselves as we are – the positive and the negative, this is ego.

I agree with you here – at the same time, i suppose those others who are “seeing” us have to be able to see us also from within themselves without ego, with humility. Maybe the most valid thing would be no judgment at all, toward ourselves or others but is that even possible? that would take true caring on our part. how does one possibly point out to another their flaws or their gifts without moving too far in one or the other direction. without judging - only by stating?

Yes I agree with you. when we are able to “take a step back” and take the time to look and pay attention, perhaps trying to be completely objective about what is being shown to us, if we can…in other words, to try to view our self as an onlooker without any emotion. Just to be there without any judgment, and to see what is there. This is not so easy for people though. But it can be done with a lot of practice but then we must start somewhere. This is made easier when we know that those “others” are those who care about us, those we can trust and will always tell us what they see.

I agree with you here too. As I said, the ego must be dropped and there has to be a real honest examining of one’s self. Especially with those we care about, getting upset or angry, though human, can cause others to be hurt, not just ourselves. but i would suppose that for the moment, the most useful way to be would be neutral and then only examine what is being said.

Now let me ask you a question. How do we judge that the people pointing out our blind spots to us are being objective and not just judgmental? How do we know when they have our best interest in mind?

Yes. And on a more positive note here, once we have become aware that this is what we do, how we react, we can learn gradually to take as many steps back or forward as we need to, to take our time, in order to respond in a productive way, after carefully thinking it out. if we do in fact value our becoming and our growth, we will begin to do what is necessary to STOP doing these things. We will respond differently.

Your username, death awaits, is appropriate to this exchange…because one might say that death does indeed await…there are many ways in which to die. Letting go of ego and bad habits that we have been used to is a form of death and dying that must happen. Perhaps death awaits for us to be reborn again. As long as we continue to allow ourselves to be in the moment as we are used to, death cannot come to us so that we may shed that false skin, those facades we live with, those tough membranes that won’t allow us to breakthrough and to break free of ourselves.

“Sir Rising” :laughing: …Have I been knighted by the queen? didn’t she like the name of arcturus? What do you think, death awaits? Am I responding to your (death’s) beckoning?

22

Yes, it is possible!

Letting go is extremely easy! What is hard is that we refuse to let go!

We don’t know! Why is it important to know whether they are being objective or judgmental!
Whatever the situation (objective or judgemental) they are still pointing out our blind spots — this is a very beneficial thing.

By keeping our own minds peaceful and calm - despite their strong attachment or anger.
If our own mind does not remain peaceful then we are judging the other!
If our own mind remains peaceful then we are not judging the other!
A person cannot have a peaceful mind while they are judging another!

:-k For instance, from your short reply I can rapidly deduce that you have strong issues of attachment.
What goes hand in hand with strong attachment is the fear of abandonment.
What goes hand in hand with these two qualities is a very explosive temper, a very stubborn character and someone who likes to be in control.

These qualities are very easy to deduce.

Would you agree or disagree that these accurately represent qualities that you possess?

Do you perceive them as judgements or truths? :-k

23

death awaits

Yes, I see that it is “possible”- even “probable”. One would have to lose their ego, everything that is a part of that: defense mechanisms, pride, anger, fear, the need to rationalize – to detach from everything.

Giving up our need and our will to judge others – I think has a two-fold purpose or outcome too – we stop judging ourselves. I think that it is true that those who judge themselves – harshly or not, have a tendency to judge others. Give up judgments of self, and you give up judgments of others! I think that it was Carl Jung who said that only the tortured torture – or something to that effect.

This is not done in a day – it takes time, do you not think, to unlearn the habits of a lifetime? It takes constant self-awareness. For some it might take longer, for others a shorter time. Many of us walking around are not even aware of the things we do and why we do them.

Perhaps the Moment of letting go is easy – perhaps to you it is! To others, it might not be so simple. But there IS a journey into learning to let go I think and as I said above, it is not learned in an instant. It might APPEAR to be – but perhaps if you look back on your own life, if you are indeed one who has no attachment issues and do not judge others, you might discover that you too had a journey of sorts. Or not.

:-k That’s a good question – why indeed? I have to think of that one. I suppose the first thought that comes to mind would be that IF the first party was indeed being objective, he/she would be BOTH seeing the second party “realistically” and have that party’s best interests in mind.

There are some people in the universe who might take everything and anything to heart that someone says to them, without even examining its merit or reason. On the other hand, if this is someone whom they trust, they might be more compliant to look at the issue. There is a lot that can be said for the way in which one “delivers one’s “message” – from both sides of that coin.

Still, if they are able to detach even a little and move away from self into the detached observer/bystander, they might begin to “see” and “examine” their blind spots.

And you are right – ultimately the issue is the blind spots themselves, not the messenger.

How does one do that – be calm and attached and angry at the same time? You said “despite”. Don’t you have to “detach” from the anger and judgment first?

This I do agree with and understand. I had this exact discussion with a friend a while back. The difference between constructive criticism and being judgmental is the way we feel at the moment – angry, hurt, vengeful – or just caring and wanting to show the other person “what is” – I think at the same time, one has to be detached from “changing” the other person, detached from the outcome of that constructive criticism. All one can do is “show” the other person….

:laughing: Gee, go right ahead - strip me naked in the forum why don’t you? [-X So you deduced all of this huh? :confused: I am not even sure how to respond here to this but please do give me a moment and I just might. ](*,)

First of all, I am irish and Italian :laughing: so I am capable of having an explosive temper, especially when I have kept it under wraps for a while. It’s like a supernova, it comes then it’s gone.

Secondly, sure I have issues of attachment – some of mine may be stronger or lesser than others. But yes indeedy they are there and I am working on them, believe it or not.

Thirdly, fear of abandonment – many of us have this fear to. Since I was abandoned as a child, and spent 8 years in an orphanage, at least for me, how could I not have them. but let me be clear on one thing - i am glad that i was there. But I am working on this fear too. Some journeys appear to be over and then reappear again. Sometimes we tend to forget that that damn Gordian knot can never be severed – only untangled again and again. And just when we think that we have conquered good old Gordius, and our neuroses, he rears his ugly head again. But we do what we gotta do - yet again.

Fourthly, yes, I can be quite stubborn :slight_smile: have been told this many times. Being stubborn can be a good thing, depending on the circumstances, no? as far as liking to be in control, yes, I sure do but I am also working on that. I find that those of us who like total control at times are really not in control of our own destinies, moments. It is one thing to be in control of one’s own destiny or fate, and another to control or want to control others. This is what we have to be aware of.

You would make a great psychoanalyst – you totally drew me out of myself. Would you be Freud or Jung? Can I have Jung please? He might understand me better. LOL

They can only be observations albeit intuitive ones - unless perceived by someone who knows us well. Then they would be knowledge. from my side, i have already pointed out that they were true. tell me, give me your observation - having said all of this, do you find me to be in more control of myself or less in these moments? sometimes i am not fully capable of being an observant, detached observer. :wink:

More and more, the dragon’s skin gets peeled away and peeled away. [size=150]Ouch[/size]. :astonished:

i can actually thank you for this. you have raised my self-awareness. thanks :slight_smile: it seems to be the week for arcturus to rise. and now i must go “detach”…

24

No Arctus, letting go is easy for everyone (not just me). It is refusing to let go that is hard.
Imagine the following mind experiment.
I ask you to hold a glass of pure water at an arms length from your body.
You must hold the water so still that not even the smallest of waves forms on the surface.
You arm must be kept incredibly still.

Do you think you can do this?

Even your heart beat will cause the smallest of waves to form on the surface.

The longer you hold onto that glass of water the harder it will get and the more fatigued your arm will become.

The answer is simple, put the glass on a table — just let it go and the water will naturally become still and calm.

Holding onto the glass of water is hard and it becomes harder as time passes — but putting it down is easy.

This is no different to the mind.
Our pride and arrogance prevents us from putting things down or putting things away.
Our pride forces us to hold onto things and then we say that it is hard to let go.
It is not hard to let go — we refuse to let go and this is hard.

The first step to letting go is not to realize why things happen.
The first step to letting go is simply to realize that we possess pride and we are stubborn.

Once we have realized that we are proud and stubborn we then investigate other ways of thinking.

We slowly practice those other ways of thinking (and we will make a lot of mistakes) and we slowly become less proud.

We then slowly experience the freedom of having let go of things (this is very liberating).

This takes time — and we will slip into old habits — and this is perfectly natural.

And what is your point? Practice makes perfect, Arcturus!

So, the solution to solving our own problems is to have other people behave in a certain way! Do you think control makes perfect?

There is nothing more self perpetuating to the controller than to have other people behave in a way that suits them!

Sometimes a person needs to use a sledge hammer and sometimes a person needs to use the gentlest of brush strokes.
A person who cares is not afraid to use either of these as they know which one will be of the greatest long term benefit.

A person who cares will not worry if they are abused or insulted when they use the sledge hammer as they know it will be of long term benefit.

25

death awaits

I still feel that you are talking about the moment of letting go. Sure eventually most of us can do that. But we have to “walk” through some things before that happens. The underlying things that cause the “fear” that won’t allow us to let go. And just the fact that you say “letting go is easy for everyone” shows me that perhaps you are not seeing a whole picture. You are simply seeing your own perspective and there are many to the issue of letting go. can you see this?

That sounds like something a Buddhist might say. I don’t think this is a very good analogy. We are not talking about a glass of water and what if it did spill over? That is no big deal. We are talking about human beings and the reality of being conditioned for however long a time through different forces and influences NOT to be able to let go, as I said above, through fear, through some kind of emotional “payment” if you will, that they may think they are receiving (though perhaps not). Putting a glass of water on a table and the water being calmed cannot be compared to the emotions and the psyche of a human being.
[/quote]

I agree with you here but only insofar as we are talking about beginning to see “our pride and arrogance, if indeed they DO enter into the equation. Do you really believe that someone can be capable of “letting go” of something in an instant? Sure perhaps some silly and insignificant things. Okay, I see my pride and my arrogance in this and instantly I let go. Do you know what that is called, to me, what that reminds me of – pushing the dirt under the rug. Wishful thinking. Human lives do not work that way. That’s like a quick fix…until the next one.

Again, it is not simply pride…it might be deep-seated fear and unawareness…we haven’t gone far enough yet, dug deep enough. So we freeze. Not being able to “let go” can be like emotionally freezing up. Have you ever experienced That?

Look, I am really not trying to be stubborn here but I don’t think THAT is the first step. The only way we can take that first step is to first come to an awareness of that fear, to understand that we are dealing with Something, what it is we are dealing with and to begin the process of facing up to it and dealing with it honestly.

Why are you so intent on seeing NOT “letting go” as pride and stubbornness? True, there are some things we will not let go of because of pride and stubbornness – but they do not include ALL things. And EVEN IF that were true, it would facilitate the beginning of the journey, not the end of "letting go. And you are really oversimplifying matters I think. Until you have “walked a mile in someone else’s shoes” you will not begin to understand. Have you ever had that journey of having to leg go of something that you considered to be so Important…or not even important…just many things that won’t allow for letting go. Have you yourself let go of all of those things that you ought to let go of? Just a question for your conscience.

yes, I can agree with this. it can open us up to trying to see things realistically, everything, no matter what the cost. sometimes the cost can even appear to be great to us. Speaking personally, I will be the first to admit that I CAN be proud and stubborn.

I am aware of all of this. I know this. I am experiencing this…but “letting go” happens bit by bit, moment by moment, not before all of this. and you are right too in that we begin to sense some inner freedom. still, some can do it one way and others have to do it another way. there is NOT just one path…there are many. Who says we all have to follow the SAME path? What works/worked for you may not work for me or the other person.

Exactly – perhaps that is my point. Practice makes perfect. Remember Rome wasn’t built in a day. A lifetime of conditioning is not let go of by a simple cry of ‘let go”.

Well, you do have a point here I can admit this – in this respect I agree with you. It might very well be arrogance and pride that will make a person first want to evaluate how the other person feels about them, if they do care, before they even listen to their words. There’s a safety net there.

At the same time, if something rings true, it ought at least be looked at. You’re right here too.

Hmm, this is true. This is what happens when we begin to lose our identity and concentrate on what someone else wants or feels or thinks. And as I said, you are right. It isn’t important what the other person’s motives are – just trying to see if what they are saying is true or not is the important thing.

I can go along with this – but it isn’t always so easy though from the point of view of the person to whom the sledgehammer is falling on. That takes practice to overcome or should I say, to try not to overcome that resistance, to let go of ego. Sometimes resistance is not for our benefit. I understand this. Remember, fear is an energy and it is not so easily dissipated.

thank you.
gotta go - death awaits me

26

To Arcturus :smiley:

It appears that I have struck a raw nerve and, Arcturus, you are a harsh judge of your self!

Arcturus, whatever things you hold on to are of no concern to me (I do not know you and I do not know your life).
Hold on to whatever views you wish as they have no direct impact upon me.

You are an insignificant person in my life — a fleeting interaction on an internet forum — nothing more or less!

If you believe that your views are beneficial “for you” then follow them with all the enthusiasm that you can muster, and do not look back.

Has it ever occurred to you, Arcturus, that others have travelled the journey and know what it is like?
That others have also said the words that you say.
These people, who have travelled the journey, can only smile — that is all that can be done as they know what it is like.

In your eyes this may appear as arrogant and judgemental, but:

27

Death Awaits:

:laughing: You give yourself too much credit - it is not you that has struck the raw nerve…it had already been struck in me by a number of things. Why do you say that I judge myself harshly? That is not to say that I do not – I can – sometimes it’s important to take a good harsh look at one’s self. But yes, not to judge one’s self, but to observe one’s self honestly, even harshly, without allowing for excuses.

Ditto! This is an internet forum – it is about exchanging ideas and perceptions. And of course, the only direct/indirect impact that the views of those in ilp would have upon each of us would be – only insofar as one might take a look at what another writes/says in here. If there is something wanting/needing to be looked at/heard, and we take the time to do just that, that can be a good thing and can indeed have at least some small impact on our lives.

But your quote ^ which i have bolded is a given – I don’t even know why you would even state that.

Sort of like a puff of smoke, the quick flapping of dragonfly wings and then, poof, he is gone, a rainbow appearing and gone in an instant. In a sense, we can say that about everything…we are here and then we are gone. Life is fleeting, like a quick sun shower, while here it can be enjoyable and then poof Gone. :slight_smile:

Sorry, something about your statement when I read it, actually made me laugh. Don’t know why and then it sort of got me into a poetic mood. Truth be told, what you actually did too was reinforce how unspecial and insignificant I truly am – especially when compared to/thinking of the universe as a whole. At this time, in my “process” it was good for me to hear this. So, thank you. You did me a personal service. The universe is indeed intelligent and loving.

Ah, at times I must look back. Are all of my views beneficial to me? No, of course, not. That would be part of what my journey is about – examining my views, my perceptions about things and trying to see from and adopt a more “realistic” lens.

Yes, I do know this. And thank you again for reinforcing that I am not alone on this journey of mine. I am indeed capable of seeing others who have gone – long before me – and others who will go long after I am gone. Death Awaits. So perhaps you do see that there are other perspectives besides the one you appear to hold: that letting go is extremely easy. Only last night I was thinking concerning one particular thing – that there are many who have experienced just the same thing – and their experience of IT had to have been much more painful. So how truly important am i in the natural scheme of things. Still, our humanity causes us to focus on ourselves but still…but still… :laughing: can’t get away from it, damn it, but i am aware of it anyway…one little bit of sand on the beach of life…i like to place myself near the ocean… or one little star, among millions in all of the galaxies, i may even be one star that has died out but perhaps a bit of light may still be reaching down for someone to gaze upon…perhaps not. :slight_smile:

Why would I view the above as arrogant and judgmental? As you can see, I did agree with you and I continue to agree with it.

Unfortunately, there are times when we do not see something and we do not take the time to look at it…we react and then something cannot be taken back. We regret it and then all we CAN do is to learn from it - sometimes at a price. We can sometimes pay a pretty high price for our lack of awareness in the moment.

Thank you Death Awaits.

28

The question here Arcturus is: How do we know if our views/beliefs are beneficial or not?

A proud and stubborn person will hold onto a view despite the evidence.
A person who possesses pride “genuinely” believes that they know the answer.
A person who possess pride cannot learn anything new as they already know the answer.
If a person cannot learn anything new then they are stuck in their current situation.

So, how do we know if our own views/beliefs are beneficial or not?
A person who possess pride cannot know this answer (but believes differently).

A typical experience that I have is:

  • I have pride
  • I subdue my pride
  • I then see the truth
  • I then think I know the truth
  • I then develop pride, thinking that I know the truth
    I am then back at where I began.

A person who is vigilant in subduing pride will learn from every moment and every experience.
A person who does not possess pride can look at the “same thing” a million times and still learn from it.
There is never a time where they say “I know”, they just keep investigating and learning.
If we can learn from “every moment” and “every experience” then think of all the knowledge and wisdom that we can possess.

To possess this ability will solve all of our fears and all of our problems as we will have a vast amount of knowledge and wisdom to draw from.
If fear arises, then we will have gained the wisdom to deal with this.
If we find it hard to let go, then we will have gained the wisdom to deal with this.
If we are stubborn, then we will have gained the wisdom to deal with this.

This naturally does not take a day — it takes very a long time and is an ongoing journey.

How kind, Arcturus.
Everything I possess has been given to me by another.
If it was not for the kindness of others I would not be able to read, write, have an education, or use a computer.
I would not have money, clothes, or a roof over my head.
In fact, I would not even be alive if it were not for the kindness of my mother who taught me how to eat, walk and talk.
There would not be roads, fresh drinking water, hospitals, or anything that benefits me.
Everything “that is me” "or that “I possess” has been kindly given to me by others.
There are countless people who have contributed to my welfare.
How kind are those countless people who have given so much?

Sure, they are not all free from problems and not all of them have pure intentions — but that does not take away from their kindness.
In reality, we can never know another person’s intention.
They may appear to be nasty to us but they may be pushing us in the right direction.
It does not matter what another persons intentions are — we can still make the choice to learn from this experience.

Rememeber Sir Arcturus, no other judges you more than yourself!

29

Death awaits

I suppose that could be quite obvious…by re-xamining them. Perhaps we don’t even have to examine them, AT FIRST. If we have any kind of awareness, if our views and beliefs do not work for us, there will be some kind of movement, some kind of negative emotions. Our minds will always mirror our emotions back to us. If we are angry, in pain, struggling with some kind of conflict within us, we can interpret this as something not quite right. Our perceptions are off the mark, our PsOV are not realistic, our beliefs need to be looked at. Something needs to be looked at.

As I said above, despite all of this, we will get some message, from something. It does take the dropping of the ego, which takes practice – it may appear to happen in the moment but at least for me, it is a moment by moment “seeing” and letting go. Succeeding and failing – though it ought not to be looked at in that way. It is just a process of becoming, deconstructing and reconstructing, walking through the chaos with our scythe, so to speak, to weed out the chaff from the grain. It also takes the will to want growth and change. I suppose that might be the most important influence on what you stated above. The will to change, once one knows that they are not living in reality.

You don’t put enough faith in humanity, I think. We might have great pride, I know that I do – sometimes I become like a leaf blowing in the wind, completely helpless and swayed by my emotional wind. Or I become like this rock that is unable to be budged. Sometimes it almost seems to take a miracle for me to let go of it. If we have some kind of movement, some kind of glimmer of light, it can enter in and thus begins the deconstruction of pride. There is also an energy, a force, that is called loved. That can allow for the breaking down of pride and arrogance. It can almost be like a melting process, the way in which love can break down those walls we have built up.

Well, having already gone through the experience of 1 through 3, it is easier to find one’s way back . Each time we walk through this, the path becomes easier and easier. It’s just a question of staying in awareness, falling out of the loop, we jump back in because each time we are able to see it more clearly. We also have to ask ourselves what is most important to us – living within our pride or living within our connection to others

The first three grabbed me :slight_smile: - you could have actually ended there.

I don’t know if I completely go along with this. The fact of our humanity steps in. I may be wrong here but you seem to be making this some kind of magical potion that will automatically get rid of our fears and our problems. Life is messy and still has to be worked out, moment to moment. There will always be Something that comes along and knocks us off of our feet, disorients us. The way I look at it, that might even be a good thing. Otherwise, arrogance can step in. To me, and my thinking may be flawed, but there seems to be even a bit of arrogance in what you said above. None of us have this vast knowledge at our fingertips, we are not so special either that life in realizing how knowledgeable and wise we are, will stay away from us. It always seems to appear at our doorstep when there is a lesson we need to learn. The question is: do we want to learn the lesson or do we want to consider ourselves to be as gods, above it all?

Yes, finally you do admit this :wink: …it takes a very long time and it is an ongoing journey. ….and on and on and on. But anyway, we aren’t going anywhere until You, Death, come and get us. I sort of feel that our learning is not complete at Death. It is a constant, a continuation, and isn’t that wonderful? Perhaps by the time you truly come and get me, Death, we might be friends. :smiley:

Agreed…

Thank you, I will try to remember this, Death Awaits, though i have indeed had the experience of being judged in the moment by others, more than i have judged myself. Hurtful. But, then again,so has the rest of the world been judged in this way, so i am truly not alone. More cause for me to remember NOT to judge others, along with myself. I will try to remember to observe, but not to judge. Though I do not consider myself to be a lady, per se, perish the thought, it is nonetheless, Lady Arcturus. :laughing: Thanks again.

“What is Love but the love
that could pass between me
And one other person?
It matters not which person.
What is Love but the one voice
That sings in me
And everything that lives,
The beauty that settles on me
And all the earth
Waiting only to be recognized?
What is Love but the memory
Of what I have always known
But have yet to recall,
The haunting vision of a past
I have yet to see clearly,
The only future toward which I move
Even when I think I am walking backward?
What is love but a friend
Who has remained beside me
And never once removed his hand?

In simplicity he says,
“Forgive just one other person
And you will know me.”
What is Love but the only possible outcome
I could ever wish for,
The gentle answer to it all?
Hugh Prather

I also need to remember the above. I seem to have misplaced it during this destruction/chaos/reconstruction period.

Thank you Death Awaits.

30

This is a very interesting perception of your Arcturus — refer to my previous discussions.

What do you think humility is an antidote to? The answer may come as a shock to you!

Arcturus, at what point in any of my discussions have I ever admitted that I possess any great skills or knowledge.
I can see constant examples of those who are so much better than me and I can only wish that I was like them.
This does not make me feel less of a person — it makes me happy to see these people.
Well done to those who are better persons than me — well done!

So let me get this straight Arcturus. What I hear is that you do not feel that you possess this ability and, so in order to feel good about yourself, you put the rest of humanity at your level. We are all equal to Arcturus, not better! Could you imagine a world where everyone is better than you Arcturus?

What would it be like to be constantly surrounded by people who are better than you, Lady Arcturus? :stuck_out_tongue:
What would your experience be?

31

“death awaits”

I could say Everything. As I do NOT think that there is only one simple answer to this, I would like to hear what you think humility is an antidote to. :slight_smile:

Apparently, I mis-read this. Somehow what I thought I read yesterday was “what is the antidote to humanity” - so I got up this morning and over coffee, thought some things out - and this is what I came to. Feel free, if you wish, to add more.

  1. To take ourselves less, less seriously.
  2. To laugh at ourselves, more and more.
  3. To realize that, in the natural scheme of things, we are just NOT so important - no more, no less, than anyone else. We are not the center of the Universe.
  4. To dance, sing, laugh, play Together more.
  5. To think in terms of That Man - That Woman is Me… to have compassion, empathy, understanding - to feel inter-connected with one another.
  6. To stop judging - ourselves and others - only to observe
  7. To ask ourselves - always - “What am I really dealing with here”? “What is it that I really want”? Then to think about this, and to think about what comes to us, and then to think about what comes from that, and to think about what comes from that…
  8. To do no harm.
  9. To have gratitude.
  10. To Love - to forgive - to forget - to let go.
  11. To remember that we are ALL of us - continuing works in progress.

Thank you, Death Awaits.

32

It appears that you find it very hard to think of other people as better than you.
I assume that you have put your faith in others many times and been hurt many times.
If everyone is equal to you then who do you admire and take as a good example?
Who can teach you if everyone is equal to you?
A student cannot be smarter than the teacher, if she is then she ceases to be a student.

It must be extremely difficult for you when you meet someone that you believe is better than you?
Oh, the nature of the internal conflict that arises within you must be joyful.
Would you accuse them of being arrogant? At this point do you view them as your equal?
— One moment admiration arises and the next moment they are chopped down to size.

Would you like to chop me down to size Arcturus? Do you perceive me as being arrogant Arcturus?
Be honest Arcturus!

The qualities that you speak of are very admirable indeed, but how does a person gain these qualities when they are lacking.

  1. How does one take our self less seriously?
  2. How does one laugh at ourselves, more and more?
  3. How does one realize that, in the natural scheme of things, we are just NOT so important - no more, no less, than anyone else. We are not the center of the Universe?
  4. How does one dance, sing, laugh, play Together more?
  5. How does one think in terms of That Man - That Woman is Me… to have compassion, empathy, understanding - to feel inter-connected with one another?
  6. How does one stop judging - ourselves and others - only to observe?
  7. How does one ask ourselves - always - “What am I really dealing with here”? “What is it that I really want”? Then to think about this, and to think about what comes to us, and then to think about what comes from that, and to think about what comes from that…
  8. How does one do no harm?
  9. How does one have gratitude?
  10. How does one Love - to forgive - to forget - to let go?
  11. How does one remember that we are ALL of us - continuing works in progress?

Maybe these things come naturally for you but what advice do you have?

Arcturus, you speak of a destination but how does one get there?
Arcturus, what tools and methods can a person use to achieve the qualities that you mention?
Do things happen by themselves or do things require effort?
If things require effort then what sort of effort is required - How?

I have a friend who was told by his father — “Son, you have done nothing wrong but the best thing for you to do is to die!”
How would you guide this young man?
This young man is now 61 years old and has had a life that has been very difficult indeed.

This song has great advice in it but this great advice, without a “how” that goes along with it, last as long as this song was in the American Top 40.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

Take as long as you need Arcturus, there is no need to rush.

33

death awaits:

I really have to tell you – you really are too much!! I have no idea who you are but you are really beginning to push my buttons. I don’t know if that thought brings you pleasure – if it does, so be it.

In the beginning I thought it was just me, a bit of vulnerability, ergo projecting, my imagination – it just somehow seemed that this was a little personal. I thought no, it is just me. The day before yesterday I was a bit conflicted so I did not respond to your post. Decided to let it go for awhile. Woke up yesterday morning, my ego melted and decided to respond. Sat down, thought, and wrote out those steps.

Open it up today and lo and behold here you are again. My gut is telling me that this is about something – not my imagination. You seem to think that I am some kind of a person that can be led like a sheep to slaughter. It would appear that you are very much in control of yourself – but there is another way of looking at this. Your actions appear to be very “controlling”. Think on that!

I have come in here wanting to share with you, exchange with you, and I have even made myself vulnerable and open to you, and you have for whatever reason apparently set yourself up as my “teacher”. Yes, indeed, we are all capable of teaching one another something. Even my cat can teach me things if i pay attention. This is, after all, a philosophy forum – we are on an equal basis in here, though you may indeed have much more knowledge than I do, which to me means absolutely nothing as I am in here to learn. You can trust me on this!! You may even twist these words around. Be predictable.

Have you even taken the time to read some of the things you have said to me – they appear to be haughty and actually come close to denigrating me – at least in the way I read them. Of course, you may just turn this around and say – no – arcturus, you are the haughty one, the arrogant and the proud one. And as I have admitted in here, yes, I can be.(openness and vulnerability) You on the other hand, have done nothing to show your own vulnerability – you have simply remained in your own little cocoon, safely hiding out. Though you indeed do Not need to show any vulnerability; this has Not been a fair exchange of thoughts and ideas. I wonder which of us really has the leash on. :-k

If you would like to exchange with me in here – on a level where we are equals – as we are, then we can do that. If you want only to set yourself up as my teacher – then this will not work out.

If you have some kind of a problem with me, pm me. I am ready, willing and able to talk to you, but I am not willing to be talked down to.

If we can find some common ground, some meeting of the minds - good. If not, perhaps we are just wasting each other’s time. I am Not in here to have my thoughts, my words, twisted to your own apparent satisfaction. If you cannot See this, take another look. I am not in here to give your life meaning. You apparently have no problem doing this for yourself. If I am wrong, prove me wrong. Meet me where this will be about fair exchanges - a true interconnectedness. You are Not my guru. I do not wish to have any gurus!!!

Thank you.
arcturus rising
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals".
Winston Churchill

34

So, from your previous post I can only assume that the answer to this question is a “yes”.
Thank you for your honesty Arcturus.

Arcturus, I do not consider myself as your teacher.

Remember Arcturus, you are a harsh judge of yourself.
I do not even know you!
You are insignificant to me!
In a few more years; you, I and everyone we know will be dead.
We will not be remembered by even a single person.
This conversation which seems so important will vanish in a puff of smoke.

Arcturus - I know that I possess pride, arrogance, hatred, anger, and I harm others.
I know I do these things. I fully acknowledge them. I take full responsibility for them.
If I know these things to be true then how could I possibly be upset when someone points out the truth to me?

I have caused you harm and I am sorry for that.
I agree very much with your previous post Arcturus, as there is a lot of truth in it.

Arcturus, do you genuinely view me as your equal or is this just lip service?

dictionary.com
lip service: insincere expression of friendship, admiration, support, etc.; service by words only: “He paid only lip service to the dictator”.

35

I was thinking some more —

Arcturus, this post was originally posted by me — and was titled “matter manifests out of nothing”.
From this title alone it is probably clear what my philosophical framework is.

It has been your choice to enter into this post and it has been your choice to continue with the discussions.
I have not forced this upon you and I have not invaded your personal space.
You are also free to leave at any time — that is your choice too.

Throughout my discussions I have maintained consistent concepts with the original post (this may not appear to be the case but, it is the case).

Just as a refesher, this was the original post that was posted by me.

36

death awaits

:laughing: I think perhaps at this time, it might be best for you to take a look and answer that question for yourself - honestly. Perhaps i might just trim you a little, just a little. :wink: :laughing:

But at the same time, someone might appear to have an “edge” to them – a bit of arrogance - at times, I have even thought that was funny. I can and do respond to that. But your approach seemed somehow to be far removed from that…

As I have already given you my thoughts on that in my penultimate response, I don’t wish to bite the tail that we have been chasing in here, you and I.

Well, you could have fooled me. Your approach said otherwise. For instance, what you might have done – when I gave you my 11 points as an antidote for humanity – is to perhaps have responded with a few explanations of your own, a few scenarios of your own in regard to a few of these antidotes. No, what you proceeded to do was to play the teacher and come back with:

Of course, at the same time, having just said this to you, I realize I might have, after giving those responses, come up with a few scenarios myself first. Do you think you might have then given me the next few – or not? This is what I mean by a fair exchange.

true – this can sometimes be the case. Read this, death awaits – how would Youinterpret your words here?

With the above, YOU are both assuming and being judgmental. How do you possibly think I could respond to THAT?

…and tell me, why would you feel it was necessary to even say something that is so obvious? Even in saying That, one might interpret that it has some meaning for you.

Oh, I think we will be remembered by some….unless you are speaking about ilp…in which case that is very possible, even probable, that we will not be remembered…still, we may be remembered by some in here… and remember some in here. some people come into our lives and do leave an imprint upon us. but i am only speaking for myself.

That indeed is true.

You can only answer the question for yourself as can I. How indeed?

[-X No, you can Stop right there. You have not caused me any harm. There is nothing for you to be sorry for. Any negative feelings I may or may not have had in here, come from within myself. You have absolutely no control over them. I choose them or Not!!!

At the same time, what I might say to you here is not to point out to someone that you have caused them harm – your family and friends. Apologize if you feel the need – to them – show them your awareness of what you “feel” you have done, but to tell them that “you have caused them harm” will not build them up, will not show them their strength nor their light.

My only point in here is that I could not go along with your approach. But that is for you to see or not.

That tells me absolutely nothing. Anyway, I am not looking for agreement in here – I am looking for us to have an equal exchange – back and forth. I want to find common ground with you.

If I didn’t view you as my equal, I would not have said anything that I did in the previous post; neither would I have returned in here – then nor now.

Again: I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals".
Winston Churchill

37

death awaits:

At first glance, it would appear that this statement would depend on one’s theory of how the universe began…within the creationist’s theory, matter would not manifest out of nothing. Within the big bang theory, matter would indeed manifest out of nothing. I suppose it would also depend on your definition of “nothing”

Still, matter continues to manifest from the very beginning of existence, perhaps even before…can we even use the word manifest…to what or whom does/did matter manifest before there was consciousness?

One might actually hold to these two extremes since how could we possibly know…we can’t prove anything.

But that would be like saying that we are looking at the universe and it really doesn’t exist, no? It is only our perception, our mind’s way of seeing it that creates it. Do you think that is at all possible?

I don’t think that things in existence are dependent on our minds. What is, simply “is”. Unless I am not understanding what you are meaning here. You might say that "some things exist but do not come into existence until our minds can grasp them, until we have discovered them. Or maybe we are saying the same thing here. But I think the word “some” may have importance here to show a distinction.

If we use what transpired between you and I as an example of That statement “Things exist but are dependent upon the mind” I might say Yes to that. Thoughts and ideas that come to us are indeed dependent on the mind, are dependent on our personal perceptions. At the same time, some things which exist within our own minds we can say “do exist independently of what we think” if that makes sense to you. For instance, the collective or universal unconscious.

I do so totally agree with this. Nothing is ever static in the universe…there is always that arising and emptiness or ought to be. The sheer fact that there “movement” shows something…whether we are talking about the universe without or the universe within us. It is always “becoming”. We can see this and since we do, we can see Something.

I don’t understand the meaning of this…I understand the two words but I don’t get your meaning. Unless you are talking about leaving things as undefined. Though things do have an essence but it is only the essence which we apply to things and people. If we can see things without their essence, maybe we can more see them in their totality. i may be completely wrong here. :-k

To me, that which is not-self is that which is not a finished process. We all have a self that defines us but that self is an ongoing process. I think I get your meaning here but I may be wrong…that which is unconditioned, is capable of becoming…totally, in each moment. That which we see as “conditioned” has no hope, while conditioned,to move, to become…that which is “conditioned” remains static in its response. That which is “unconditioned” is capable of being in the process of becoming. I don’t know if that is what you meant though.

No, it cannot be called “nothing” but it cannot be seen as becoming until it makes a movement.

38

Thank you again for you honesty Arcturus.

Arcturus, it would appear to me that we think in an incompatible manner.
This does not make either of us correct or incorrect — just incompatible.

It was never my intention to stay in this forum for very long (I was only having a look).
As a result of this intention, I do not want to get drawn into long discussions.

Thank you for you views on the original post and I hope other people can add to these valuable views.
Peachy has some very interesting views on this topic — and is also great author.
Have you read some of “her/his” stuff.
I put “her” first as “she/he” sounds like a her — but I could be wrong.

To the Death

39

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :banana-dance: :banana-dance: :banana-dance: :banana-dance: You really ought to put out a shingle: “GONE FISHING…ALWAYS”.

To the Death? Yes, we are ALL ALWAYS moving toward DEATH.

Thank you for the experience. Take Care. :-"