Meanings of poems

Poems, like other art forms, pose a problem for the critic when the critic attempts to get a meaning out of the poem. The question from which this problem arises is this: did the poet create the series of lines in verse in such a way that they carry a meaning inside and can this meaning be extracted from the poem by anyone who reads it, or is the poem devoid of any intrinsic meaning and the reader creates a meaning while reading the poem which is probably completely different than the one the poet had in mind as s/he wrote the poem? To this problem I have a possible problem-free method for arriving at a solution.

Whether a poem is read by a critic and understood as having a meaning that is the same as the writer intended depends on three factors, which if ideally met, make the intended meaning and the interpreted meaning similar. The first condition is that there exist an poetic language, in more or less the same way as there exists the English language, so that for example when someone writes “My name is John” on the sand, anyone capable of reading English would understand perfectly what John meant to convey with the symbols on the sand. The second condition is that the poet have the ability to convey their intention using this poetic language. The third condition is that the spectator be capable of reading and understanding this poetic language. If all three of factors are met, then what the poet has in mind when he or she writes a poem ought to be interpreted correctly by a reader.

But these conditions are only ideal, and as far as I know not actual. There is no language of poetry, and hence there is no way the poet can write his poems in a way such that they’re understood in the manner that he may want them to be understood. Also, because there is no agreed upon language of poetry, there can be no way for a reader to get into the mind of the poet. A reader is then faced with a bunch of lines of English verse which if taken at face value are devoid of any immediate coherent meaning.

A poem is written in a human language, and obviously there exists such a language with which we can convey and understand what we mean, but with a regular language the meaning is usually plain to see for anyone who knows the language. Poems on the other hand, while they do make use of ordinary language, are primarily supposed to mean something other, something deeper than what the words would mean if read at face value. The difference here can best be described, I think, through use of an analogy. The iceberg: the meaning of ordinary language is just the tip of the iceberg. When I say I’ll meet you at the club at 7:00 o’clock, any English speaking person would understand perfectly what I mean. The meaning of poems on the other hand, while they sometimes mean something of the tip of the iceberg (face value), their intended meaning is mostly the submerged chuck of the iceberg. Let’s take the first four lines of poet’s Robert Frost’s poem “Into My Own” as an example:

One of my wishes is that those dark trees,
So old and firm they scarcely show the breeze,
Were not, as 'twere, the merest mask of gloom,
But stretched away unto th eedge of doom.

I’d normally dismiss such lines of English words as gibberish, but because they come from Robert Frost, a renown artist acknowledged by better minds than mine to convey deep intellectual ideas through his poetry, I have to believe that these lines mean something. However, the way in which I can get to this meaning is beyond me. I’m confident that Frost has an intention to go with this poem. I’m sure that he had something in mind and that he probably thought that these particular lines of English best conveyed that meaning, but I’m also sure that not a lot of people beyond Frost can get this same meaning from the poem. Thus, because there isn’t a solid method by which to convey the intended meaning through poems, and because everyone is more or less different in thought, it seems that all who read poetry will bring something to the poem when they say that it means this or that, instead of be taking something which is there out of it.

Meaning will be given to a symbol instead of be taken from it, if the symbol is not part of a language known, i.e. a system of symbols with an agreed and understood upon meaning. Thus, seeing that poems are written in mediums which employ symbols which everyone understands, but in series which no one but the author is privy to the meaning, it seems that poems have no intrinsic meaning which they carry from the mind of the poet to the mind of the critic. To the poet who wrote the poem, the poem will mean one thing, and to an eight year old who’s just learned to read, it won’t mean anything, or it might mean something completely different than what the author meant.

basic summary of argument

  1. If poems are to carry any meaning whatsoever, including extrinsic meaning, then they must employ a poetic language.
  2. There doesn’t exist a poetic language with which the poets intended extrinsic meaning can be transported from the poets mind to the readers.
    /:. 3)Poems are incapable of carrying such meaning

Food for thought in lieu of and about this is appreciated.

Nice essay, xzc.

Well, of course even the most literal, technical piece of writing is open, in however small a way, to some amount of interpretation. Such is the nature of language that the signifiers are doomed forever to fall short of providing perfect description of the signifieds.

Poetry, though, unlike prose, not only doesn’t try to overcome this reality, but relishes it and is in fact driven by it. Poetry’s language is one of suggestion. As Frost put it, “poetry is what gets lost in translation.” The space between the poet’s mind and the reader’s is where the poem exists. And here is where the meaning is found. It’s a connection between poet and reader that just doesn’t lend itself to description by normal language. I wouldn’t rule out a “poetic language” though. It just doesn’t avail itself of words, but an understanding of sorts still takes place. The poet leads the reader and the reader fills in the details, connects the dots. It’s what’s between the lines where the meaning is found. Reader and poet might even expressly disagree about the “literal” meaning, but the literal meaning is beside the point. A dialogue of sorts takes place in every poem that is read. The reader creates along with the poet, and that creation is the language of poetry.

xcz,

What you’ve carefully described is the dilemma of all creative efforts by the masters as well as ourselves. When looking at a painting, do you see what the artist intended for you to see? Maybe, or maybe not.

Rainey put’s it far more eloquently, but poetry is an experience, a happening between the writer and reader. What is poetry is a resonance between two people. Often, that experience isn’t translatable in words, there is just understanding.

Amusing, isn’t it? We use words to communicate something not always words…

rainey,
I’m not what one could call a poem aficionado, but I think I’ve read enough poems to know that they don’t signify anything particularly interesting, or anything which couldn’t be said in sober prose. For my part, I think poems are just a way in which to say something very ambiguous and esoterically. It’s not a way of sharing knowledge, I don’t think, but a way of juggling much inside of little–a literary trick. But I do sort of get what you’re saying. What the poet intends and what the reader gets are often times similar. But it’s hard for me to imagine the process of writing a series of words in a particular series such that the words don’t serve to carry a meaning within, but they signify some meaning that exists in between the mind of the author and the reader… :-k

Can you interpret this for me, rainey? And could sort of tell me why you got the meaning you did from the words present? Or if it’s not meaning that you get, but something else, then tell me that.

One of my wishes is that those dark trees,
So old and firm they scarcely show the breeze,
Were not, as 'twere, the merest mask of gloom,
But stretched away unto th eedge of doom.

But all that is available to the poet is words, and all that is available to the reader is the words the poet choose. So what you must be saying is that the words don’t carry a meaning, but a resonance…the words carry understanding?

Think of it this way. A poem (like a good painting or, really, any piece of art and art is, of course, what poetry is) is meant to speak in the language of emotion, the language of the heart. This is the poetic language you are looking for. An interpretation is made, and not on an intellectual level, but on an emotional one. Good poetry conjures up something inside that prose can only describe, without doing the conjuring. Consider:

Prose: There’s an atmosphere of doom prevalent.
Poetry: The Titanic sails at dawn. *

The poetic way to get across what the prose describes does something inside. Or at least it should. It touches something; it moves us in some way. I personally find the poetic line above jolting, and I am left with a feeling of impending doom that the prose line does not give me. It’s a nifty little metaphor that is jarring in its brevity, and in the way that a tremendous tragedy is summoned up in present tense.

Prose makes us understand. Poetry makes us feel.

Okay, let’s look at this Frost verse of yours. First of all, I am thinking we need to see it in context, so here is the complete poem:

Into My Own

One of my wishes is that those dark trees,
So old and firm they scarcely show the breeze,
Were not, as 'twere, the merest mask of gloom,
But stretched away unto the edge of doom.

I should not be withheld but that some day
into their vastness I should steal away,
Fearless of ever finding open land,
or highway where the slow wheel pours the sand.

I do not see why I should e’er turn back,
Or those should not set forth upon my track
To overtake me, who should miss me here
And long to know if still I held them dear.

They would not find me changed from him they knew–
Only more sure of all I though was true.

Now this is a poem of great meaning to me. It’s important to note that it may not be the exact meaning Frost intended, but as I’ve said before, this becomes incidental. The meaning of a poem ultimately belongs to the reader. This poem touches me and evokes an emotion in me. Somebody writing prose might have just said, “You know, as I go through life I’m pretty much going to just go my own way, never looking back, always seeking to see what’s up ahead. Or at least I wish I could do this, but my fears and worries sometimes overtake me and I have a tendency to stay put, only imagining the things that are out there to discover.”

To which I go, “Hmm.”
Frost, using metaphor, using imagery, using – in other words – the tools of the poet, makes me go, “Wow.”

Prose is “Hmm.” Poetry is “Wow.”

  • Bob Dylan, “Desolation Row”

I like what you said, in terms of the intentions of poems being emotion, but I still don’t see how one arrives at an understanding of the signified, and I think one must first understand at least on some very basic level what is being said before emoting. Also, I don’t think prose is limited to being just a mechanism for understanding. On the contrary the majority of works written in prose, excluding philosophic works, is meant just for this purpose: emotion and understanding.

Well I wouldn’t disagree that at some basic level there needs to be some common understanding. Surely you had some rudimentary understanding of “Into My Own,” yes? Not that there aren’t very obscure poems full of abstractions, but even in those, if they are to properly be called poems, there is normally something that touches the reader or moves him or her or jolts him or her, even if it’s a single line of verse.

One can get something out of this, for example:

April is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain

…without having to read the entirety of T.S. Eliot’s “The Wasteland.” One is presented with a suggestion of misplaced or false optimism. But the poem will conjure this idea up differently within each reader, based on each reader’s own life experiences, perhaps, or maybe the mood of the reader at the moment he or she happens to read it. This is what I mean by the reader creating along with the poet. The facts are not laid bare at the reader’s feet. The reader has to think about it, has to find a way to relate to it. He or she has to, in short, become involved in it.

Now, I don’t mean to imply that prose cannot also do this. Good prose can provoke great emotion. But it normally requires a certain amount of development. I remember being very touched at the end of The Hunchback of Notre Dame when I read it several years ago. The problem is, it took 600 pages to get me there. It was well worth the ride, but poetry is a short burst, a snapshot, a quick sideways glance, a moment frozen in time, an experience. Sometimes of course, the line between prose and poetry is a very fine one. Notice that when we speak of great prose, we often say this so as to pay it the highest compliment: It reads like poetry.

I have very little time, so just a brief interlude.

A professor of mine had the honor to attend a “very brief lecture…” given by none other than T.S. Eliot, when he was a student at Cambridge. After Eliot’s speech, a person in the crowd raised his hand and asked him, “My roommate and I have been debating none stop about the meaning of one of the lines in your verse all of last semester. I think you meant this by it but he believes you meant that by it. Didn’t you mean . . .” Eliot nodded, “Mmmhmm, yes, that’s good.” “But,” the the person in the crowd said, “my roommate believes it means this . . .” “Mmmhmm, yes…” said Eliot. Then someone else in the crowd said, “But I think you meant this by it…” and Eliot again nodded and said, “Yes, that’s good.” But then someone else in the crowd, “But didn’t you mean this by it…” and Eliot again nodded, “Mmmhmmm, yes…”

I’m more of a dabbler than Rainey and TUM but for me at least [good] poetry is a way of comunicating at once with enough vagueness and with enough force of image to spark meaning across from my mind to yours.

A long and linguistically intense dialogue between two people defeats itself, unless those two be of like enough mind/experience to have some intuitive grasp of each other’s lexus. As Imp might say “Language is an ambiguous conveyance”.

“What I mean to say” gets translated poorly into “what I say”, then “what I say” gets even more garbaged into “what you think I’m saying”. Complex language, in it’s attempt to convey exact snippets of crucial information in a short period, falls on its ass.

But a ‘poet’ can widen the focus of what he/she intends you to feel and blast away with enough imagery, machine-gun like, to hit the target even at the expense of a hundred misses. Also remember poetry is intended to be spoken on the whole, and what interpretation is done, is done ‘live’ as the words are spoken, rather than prior with prose and layed dead on the page.

Simply written → read poetry is poetry with half its bandwidth missing.

This is however to assume that a poet in the act of creation actually has a strictly intended meaning in (conscious) mind. I cannot speak for the others but I often don’t - I sometimes have a title, or perhaps a first line and I work from there. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t. My poem “13 ways to fall” began with the title, and a spontaneously written first line. The rest almost fell from my sub-conscious into my lap, with a few post hoc tweakings.

Perhaps from your title you create a catagory error. Perhaps meaning in the poetic sense shouldn’t be confused with the more mundane meaning of necessary conversation, any more than cubism should be confused with straight photography.

The first mistake is to believe that it is the author of the poem who is in charge of its meaning!

And do not forget the second mistake: to believe the reader is in charge of its meaning.

Now here is the fleshed-out analysis.

Very enlightening, copy and pasted from the following link below, http://academic2.american.edu/~dfagel/Class%20Readings/Fish/HowToRecognizeAPoem.htm

Get back to me with any questions.

I’m a bit of a poet myself, so some people come to me and show me their works. People are very self-conscious about that sort of thing, so to put them at ease, I often tell people that a good poem cannot be defined by the words used, or the vocabulary employed. A poem comes from the emotions put into it, and hopefully your target audience is one that can extract those emotions.

Empathy is a massive link between a poet and a reader, I believe. There has to be some sort of willingness to understand and look for the feelings and thoughts that go into a poem, and hopefully you can indentify with at least the appreciation of those qualities, even if you don’t agree with the specific thoughts or feelings.

As a poet, I like to stir the emotions of others. I like to create works that get the reader to say “Wow, I felt that.” Perhaps the exact meaning as projected by the poet and interpreted by the reader isn’t the point. I mean, if it were, a poet might as well get a megaphone and just scream “This is my point!”